I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[wetgorilla]

This interview was given to Now Playing Magazine and written by Scott Collura. I thought it was an interesting, but very worn and predictable, conversation. I posted my thoughts on Simon's interview along with some focused excerpts.

Fantastic Four screenwriter Simon Kinberg is hinting at what might be in a possible sequel: "[W]hat is interesting is that we were talking about that when we working on the first movie, and we thought about the franchise as a saga," he told Now Playing Magazine. "We thought, 'Where does this saga go after the first movie?' And you will see that it is not just an origin story of the Fantastic Four; it is also an origin story of Dr. Doom, and it is not until fairly late in the first movie [that] he fully becomes Dr. Doom. And there is a lot of space for him to grow in futures films, and I am sure they will want to bring in other villains because all of these franchises do, but I have a feeling he'll be to Fantastic Four what Magneto is to X-Men."

I have a feeling?? Of course Dr. Doom has a similar relationship with the Fantastic Four as that of the Magneto/X-Men relationship. Dr. Doom is the arch-enemy of the Fantastic Four and Simon appears to recently be learning this?

Simon appears to be implying Doom will have a reccuring role in possible sequels. IMO this is a bad idea because one interesting aspect about Doom was how he'd disappear for a while and resurface when no one would expect him. Having him in a sequel would be over-using an asset which could have been a powerful trump card.

It's sad how a script assignment was eventually given to a guy who makes comments as though he didn't know much about the subject matter to begin with (in fairness, the interview - not Simon - makes a claim he does).

Regarding Galactus, Kinberg said: "You know probably better than I what audiences are willing to get into. I would imagine it is possible. I would imagine the Fantastic Four franchise will do what the X-Men franchise [does] – get bigger and bigger each time out, ideally. And certainly Galactus will be as big as you can get."

"You know probably better than I what audiences are willing to get into"? This is coming from the man who is creating a menu millions of FF fans are going to be digesting this summer. He should know whether or not Galactus could be developed into an acceptable movie antagonist. This is another interview demonstrating how horribly out-of-touch this production team is in regards to this film.

IMO this script spent too much time with the Doom the Industrialist/Reed/Sue issue than with creating a good adaptation involving the original motivations of Doom. IMO Simon uses cookie-cutter plot points and over used character models. We're here to see the Fantastic Four not Days of Our Lives!

I spent a lot of time working on character scenes, dialogue, their dynamics, their personal histories, [and] their relationship to Doom.”

Hopefully, his last comment in this interview will translate better on screen than on paper.

The link for the entire interview is http://www.nowplayingmag.com/content/view/1269/2/

Comments?

Wetgorilla

 

[Milkman95]

Well, let's just hope there were tons of improvements and changes from the draft that I read, because it was sub-par at best........

Re-shoots, tons of re-writes, and an inexperienced cast & crew could possibly add up to a disaster. But then again, it could be the right ingredients for a good film, we'll see soon enough.........

 

[wetgorilla]

Well, let's just hope there were tons of improvements and changes from the draft that I read, because it was sub-par at best........

Re-shoots, tons of re-writes, and an inexperienced cast & crew could possibly add up to a disaster. But then again, it could be the right ingredients for a good film, we'll see soon enough.........

I read (or should I say thumbed through) one of the initial shooting scripts laying on my friends desk last year and that was very, subpar. But, like any production the script changes daily while filming and often times the results on film are slightly different than what made it onto the lot initially.

But most often, a script as damaged as that one was can't be salvaged beyond it's best points.

Wetgorilla

 

[Milkman95]

Well, the old saying goes "You can't polish a terd".............I'm afraid in the case of the FF script, it was doomed from the beginning, so any corrections that have been made won't make enough of an impact to make it good..........we'll see.....hopefully I'm wrong......

 

[wetgorilla]

Well, the old saying goes "You can't polish a terd".............I'm afraid in the case of the FF script, it was doomed from the beginning, so any corrections that have been made won't make enough of an impact to make it good..........we'll see.....hopefully I'm wrong......

Well, Milkman, some people on this forum might not like the milk you deliver - but all their hateful wishing can't keep you from delivering the truth!

Good job and let's hope all the polishing has whittled the script down to a soft core easily digestable.

Wetgorilla

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

What? You mean wishful thinking can't make a movie better? Sonuva...

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO EPISODE ONE!!

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Re-shoots, tons of re-writes, and an inexperienced cast & crew could possibly add up to a disaster. But then again, it could be the right ingredients for a good film, we'll see soon enough.........

"Inexperienced" cast and crew? M&M, you and I already had this conversation over on the Batman Begins boards....

 

[Head>On<Collider]

No, you cannot polish a turd and expect the polish job to do all the damn work. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Sardaukar]

Heh heh. Bump.

 

[Saph]

So it seems Doom takes his mutation into his own hands, and, through HIS OWN WILL, makes himself stronger.

Just as I predicted.

So Doom, metaphorically, creates his own armour. And considering

Spoiler

he gets sent to Latveria at the end

, he will make his way to rule Latveria with an iron fist. A real iron fist.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

pfffft LAME

 

[Saph]

pfffft LAME

How insightful.

It was either you or Saintofkille who wanted Doom to have his diplomatic immunity. If he doesn't have it, why isn't he arrested and sent to an american prison, instead of being sent home to Latveria? Sounds like Diplomatic Immunity to me.

And Doom has created his own power before. Silver Surfer storyline, taking the Beholder's powers; it isn't far from Doom's character to mutate himself further to gain more power, to mold his own destiny.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I wasn't trying to be insightful.

"isn't far from Doom's character" may be good enough for you and that's fine. I'm merely expressing my opinion that the "metaphorically" was lame beyond words.

I am glad you are happy with what they are producing and hope that it gives you some enjoyment.

 

[Saph]

I wasn't trying to be insightful.

"isn't far from Doom's character" may be good enough for you and that's fine. I'm merely expressing my opinion that the "metaphorically" was lame beyond words.

I am glad you are happy with what they are producing and hope that it gives you some enjoyment.

That's where you have me wrong; i'm not happy. I'd still rather have the better Doom than the one we're getting. It's just i'd rather have this Doom than somebody that only shares his name, know what i'm saying?

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

So it seems Doom takes his mutation into his own hands, and, through HIS OWN WILL, makes himself stronger.

Just as I predicted.

So Doom, metaphorically, creates his own armour. And considering

Spoiler

he gets sent to Latveria at the end

, he will make his way to rule Latveria with an iron fist. A real iron fist.

We know this how, actually ?
(if it's real, then i'll be happy. After all the changes we got, at least, by the end, the character won't be too far from the one we know.)

Edit: Oh, I think I just understood. You mean that comes from the news we heard not so much ago that Doom would "overdrive" from his powers, lose, and be sent back to latveria ?

This, isn't such a good thing, actually... I though you meant that Doom would gain "bigger power" by himself, and become much more powerful, and that, at the end, he would go back to Latveria, kick the king's nuts, and take his rightful place on the throne.

That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king.

But alas, if my guess is good, the end will be just as bad as the rest. All it will do is "set events so that if there ever is a sequel, and if Fox let them use Doom again, we might FINALLY get something close to Doom".

That's a giant IF. And they would have waste the first movie... at least, all of Doom's scenes... so we MIGHT one day get something close.

 

[Herr Logan]

We know this how, actually ?
(if it's real, then i'll be happy. After all the changes we got, at least, by the end, the character won't be too far from the one we know.)

Edit: Oh, I think I just understood. You mean that comes from the news we heard not so much ago that Doom would "overdrive" from his powers, lose, and be sent back to latveria ?

This, isn't such a good thing, actually... I though you meant that Doom would gain "bigger power" by himself, and become much more powerful, and that, at the end, he would go back to Latveria, kick the king's nuts, and take his rightful place on the throne.

That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king.

But alas, if my guess is good, the end will be just as bad as the rest. All it will do is "set events so that if there ever is a sequel, and if Fox let them use Doom again, we might FINALLY get something close to Doom".

That's a giant IF. And they would have waste the first movie... at least, all of Doom's scenes... so we MIGHT one day get something close.

This isn't directed toward Saph specifically, and it doesn't even apply solely to "Fantastic Four," but just going off that last paragraph, I really hate it when people try to justify a crappy movie or crappy aspects of a movie by saying "it's an origin story, it'll be more faithful next time." As if that was a valid justification. If an origin story is mediocre when it could be excellent, it's an unforgivable failure, and it makes it impossible for the "it's just an origin story" excuse to be valid. The people who toss that around as if it had any weight must really have a screwed up view of reality. Hundreds of millions of dollars spent on a movie that didn't present the real character and whose creators didn't even attempt to make the most of their opportunities, just so we might get a really good one later? That's such bull$hit, and I don't have one shred of respect for anyone who dares toss that out in an attempt to justify creative failures in movies. Again, that's not directed at Saph, since I don't recall him ever saying anything like that, but it's something that TheSaintofKillers referred to and I thought I'd rant a little bit about.

 

[Saph]

This isn't directed toward Saph specifically, and it doesn't even apply solely to "Fantastic Four," but just going off that last paragraph, I really hate it when people try to justify a crappy movie or crappy aspects of a movie by saying "it's an origin story, it'll be more faithful next time." As if that was a valid justification. If an origin story is mediocre when it could be excellent, it's an unforgivable failure, and it makes it impossible for the "it's just an origin story" excuse to be valid. The people who toss that around as if it had any weight must really have a screwed up view of reality. Hundreds of millions of dollars spent on a movie that didn't present the real character and whose creators didn't even attempt to make the most of their opportunities, just so we might get a really good one later? That's such bull$hit, and I don't have one shred of respect for anyone who dares toss that out in an attempt to justify creative failures in movies. Again, that's not directed at Saph, since I don't recall him ever saying anything like that, but it's something that TheSaintofKillers referred to and I thought I'd rant a little bit about.

To be fair, he said "That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king." Notice the AT LEAST. This means he would've preferred Doom to be king in the first place, but if what he thought I said was true then it would be better, not that it was OK.

 

[Herr Logan]

To be fair, he said "That way, even though they would have get his origin all wrong, AT LEAST by the end of the movie he would get things in his hand, and become king." Notice the AT LEAST. This means he would've preferred Doom to be king in the first place, but if what he thought I said was true then it would be better, not that it was OK.

I wasn't criticizing TheSaintofKillers, either. I'm talking about the people who straight-up use a phrase that's something along the lines of "it's an origin movie, they'll give us the real character next time, so stop whining" to justify creativce failures. Those people are scum. That wasn't directed at you or TheSaintofKillers.

 

[Saph]

I fear for Doom. How I describe him makes things look better, but whether the movie will show it like I do is another thing entirely. Comic book movies have a reputation of having sub-par villains.

Superman the Movie's Lex Luthor. Although he is one of the better ones.

Spider-Man's Green Goblin was a threat; nothing more.

Spider-Man 2's Doctor Octopus was an action vehicle.

X-Men's Magneto was OK.

Hellboy's Rasputin, although he was quite good. The film used Kroenen and Sammael, secondary villains, a lot better though.

Daredevil's Kingpin didn't do anything other than send out Bullseye, who we can all agree was the main threat in DD.

Comic book movies either have one villain that isn't memorable, or two villains where the secondary one is more memorable. I hope Doom isn't reduced to being the 'threat'.

However; Doom looks to be more included than other villains. His involvement in the four's origin, the fact he develops his powers along with them, and Reed and Sue knowing Victor on a personal level.

I just hope he isn't a generic baddie, but rather a sensational on like Lecter and Vader. Like Doom is supposed to be.

 

[Iron Maiden]

I fear for Doom. How I describe him makes things look better, but whether the movie will show it like I do is another thing entirely. Comic book movies have a reputation of having sub-par villains.

Superman the Movie's Lex Luthor. Although he is one of the better ones..

I am afraid you are right about the track record for movie villains, or more particularly super-villains from the comics. I think you can lay part of the blame on the old Adam West Batman TV show. All over the top, all more than a little silly. It was called "camp" at the time and it worked.... in the 1960'.

I think that is why Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor is played more in that vein. Other than through a plot contrivance, he really doesn't come off as someone who can give Superman a tough fight. That's not to say that Gene Hackman was brilliant in the part but it cast a long shadow over the translation of the archetypical supervillain to the movies.

You don't mention him but I think Jack Nicholson's Joker was the best one from that era. He was closer to the Joker of the comics from that time period - - crazy as a loon but dangerous too.

Spider-Man's Green Goblin was a threat; nothing more.

Spider-Man 2's Doctor Octopus was an action vehicle.

X-Men's Magneto was OK...

What I find interesting is that all three were played by top notch actors but all seem to have difficulty rising to the occasion due to the limitations of the script. I have to give Sam Raimi and his SFX crew credit for making Doc Ock scarier than he is in the comics, even though his origin in the movie makes him look like a purely altruistic humanitarian. Ian McKellan has a couple of impressive scenes but for some reason I don't find him all that memorable. He doesn't come across as the global threat as he does in the comics.

Hellboy's Rasputin, although he was quite good. The film used Kroenen and Sammael, secondary villains, a lot better though.

Daredevil's Kingpin didn't do anything other than send out Bullseye, who we can all agree was the main threat in DD....

I fell asleep twice trying to watch Daredevil and I don't think I have seen it all in one sitting to this day. They made all this fuss about Michael Clark Duncan as the Kingpin but at the end of the day he wasn't up to the role, and there wasn't that much of a role to begin. DD takes him out in a very unsatsifying fight scene. Even though I am not that big of a Colin Farrell fan, he did well as the psychotic Bullseye.

Comic book movies either have one villain that isn't memorable, or two villains where the secondary one is more memorable. I hope Doom isn't reduced to being the 'threat'.

However; Doom looks to be more included than other villains. His involvement in the four's origin, the fact he develops his powers along with them, and Reed and Sue knowing Victor on a personal level.

I just hope he isn't a generic baddie, but rather a sensational on like Lecter and Vader. Like Doom is supposed to be.

What worries me the most about the Fantastic Four movie is that the writers that have surfaced so far (heck, there may be more we don't know about) just don't inspire a lot of confidence, especially Kinberg. He's been attached to a couple of bombs at least. His interviews give me a glimmer of hope and maybe his stuff got diluted in the typical Hollywood manner. Many a screenwriter has complained that their version of the script seldom reaches the screen 100% intact. And at least he and Tim Story have admitted to being a fan of the comic.

Saph, I have read some of your opinions and you may find it surprising that I do agree with some of them. I think Victor's origin is more complicated than Magneto's to bring to the screen within the limits of a two hour movie and it almost makes me wish they had left him out of the film until the third act. He should have resurfaced, much like he does in FF#5, years after Reed has assumed him dead. I do agree that making Victor the head of a successful conglomerate is akin to having your own kingdom where your word is law (at least within the boundaries of the SEC and FTC!) but I think it could have been more interesting to find out, much like in FF#200, that Reed has been working for a research corporation that is secretly funded by Doom himself back in Latveria, paving the way for a grand entrance in Act III.

How ironic is it that finally reaches Doctor Doom reaches the screen a couple of months after his "bastard grandson" Darth Vader makes his (theoretically) final appearance on the big screen? And George Lucas is going all out for this one after the stinging fan reaction to the previous chapters. At least we are lucky in a couple of respects. First of all, there is quite a bit of time between the opening of Star Wars final chapter and the FF movie. Second, Julian McMahon has shown in the past that he is a far more charismatic performer than Hayden Christianson. That is the one unpredictable and unmeasurable factor that is difficult to quantify....like catching lightening in a bottle.

But the biggest question mark to me is still the script. If only we had a screenwriters as clever as Harve Bennett and an uncredited Nicholas Meyer who incorporated the Moby Dick/Captain Ahab undertones to the Khan character in Star Trek II. Or a writer like Thomas Harris who can endow Hannibal Lector with such erudite qualities in contrast to his primitive cannabilistic urges. There is a similar dichotomy to Doom himself.... a man of almost unparalleled genius and aristocratic airs who more often than not gives in to his aggressive nature and just wants to grind the bones of his enemies to dust.

​

 

[Herr Logan]

I am afraid you are right about the track record for movie villains, or more particularly super-villains from the comics. I think you can lay part of the blame on the old Adam West Batman TV show. All over the top, all more than a little silly. It was called "camp" at the time and it worked.... in the 1960'.

I think that is why Gene Hackman's Lex Luthor is played more in that vein. Other than through a plot contrivance, he really doesn't come off as someone who can give Superman a tough fight. That's not to say that Gene Hackman was brilliant in the part but it cast a long shadow over the translation of the archetypical supervillain to the movies.

You don't mention him but I think Jack Nicholson's Joker was the best one from that era. He was closer to the Joker of the comics from that time period - - crazy as a loon but dangerous too.



What I find interesting is that all three were played by top notch actors but all seem to have difficulty rising to the occasion due to the limitations of the script. I have to give Sam Raimi and his SFX crew credit for making Doc Ock scarier than he is in the comics, even though his origin in the movie makes him lookly like a purely altruistic humanitarian. Ian McKellan has a couple of impressive scenes but for some reason I don't find him all that memorable. He doesn't come across as the global threat as he does in the comics.



I fell asleep twice trying to watch Daredevil and I don't think I have seen it all in one sitting to this day. They made all this fuss about Michael Clark Duncan as the Kingpin but at the end of the day he wasn't up to the role, and there wasn't that much of a role to begin. DD takes him out in a very unsatsifying fight scene. Even though I am not that big of a Colin Farrell fan, he did well as the psychotic Bullseye.



What worries me the most about the Fantastic Four movie is that the writers that have surfaced so far (heck, there may be more we don't know about) just don't inspire a lot of confidence, especially Kinberg. He's been attached to a couple of bombs at least. His interviews give me a glimmer of hope and maybe his stuff got diluted in the typical Hollywood manner. Many a screenwriter has complained that their version of the script seldom reaches the screen 100% intact. And at least he and Tim Story have admitted to being a fan of the comic.

Saph, I have read some of your opinions and you may find it surprising that I do agree with some of them. I think Victor's origin is more complicated than Magneto's to bring to the screen within the limits of a two hour movie and it almost makes me wish they had left him out of the film until the third act. He should have resurfaced, much like he does in FF#5, years after Reed has assumed him dead. I do agree that making Victor the head of a successful conglomerate is akin to having your own kingdom where your word is law (at least within the boundaries of the SEC and FTC!) but I think it could have been more interesting to find out, much like in FF#200, that Reed has been working for a research corporation that is secretly funded by Doom himself back in Latveria, paving the way for a grand entrance in Act III.

How ironic is it that finally reaches Doctor Doom reaches the screen a couple of months after his "bastard grandson" Darth Vader makes his (theoretically) final appearance on the big screen? And George Lucas is going all out for this one after the stinging fan reaction to the previous chapters. At least we are lucky in a couple of respects. First of all, there is quite a bit of time between the opening of Star Wars final chapter and the FF movie. Second, Julian McMahon has shown in the past that he is a far more charismatic performer than Hayden Christianson. That is the one unpredictable and unmeasurable factor that is difficult to quantify....like catching lightening in a bottle.

But the biggest question mark to me is still the script. If only we had a screenwriters as clever as Harve Bennett and an uncredited Nicholas Meyer who incorporated the Moby Dick/Captain Ahab undertones to the Khan character in Star Trek II. Or a writer like Thomas Harris who can endow Hannibal Lector with such erudite qualities in contrast to his primitive cannabilistic urges. There is a similar dichotomy to Doom himself.... a man of almost unparalleled genius and aristocratic airs who more often than not gives in to his aggressive nature and just wants to grind the bones of his enemies to dust.

​

That was an excellent post, Iron Maiden.

 

[Iron Maiden]

That was an excellent post, Iron Maiden.

*bows * why thank you...at least it wasn't all for naught.

I wish I could think of a writer who could handle the challenges of dialoguing Doom, in Hollywood that is. Roger Stern, Chuck Dixon Mark Waid or John Byrne are some of the best in the comics world when it comes to some "Doom-icisms" . I'd like to see Victor have at least a few clever lines in the movie, like this exchange:

Captain America: "Doom ! But I thought..."
Doom: Did you, Captain? How interesting. When last we chatted, I detected no such predilection in you"

-- Super-Villain Team-Up #10​

​

 

[Herr Logan]

*bows * why thank you...at least it wasn't all for naught.

I wish I could think of a writer who could handle the challenges of dialoguing Doom, in Hollywood that is. Roger Stern, Chuck Dixon Mark Waid or John Byrne are some of the best in the comics world when it comes to some "Doom-icisms" . I'd like to see Victor have at least a few clever lines in the movie, like this exchange:

Captain America: "Doom ! But I thought..."
Doom: Did you, Captain? How interesting. When last we chatted, I detected no such predilection in you"

-- Super-Villain Team-Up #10​

​

That's an awesome line.

 

[Hunter Rider]

*bows * why thank you...at least it wasn't all for naught.

I wish I could think of a writer who could handle the challenges of dialoguing Doom, in Hollywood that is. Roger Stern, Chuck Dixon Mark Waid or John Byrne are some of the best in the comics world when it comes to some "Doom-icisms" . I'd like to see Victor have at least a few clever lines in the movie, like this exchange:

Captain America: "Doom ! But I thought..."
Doom: Did you, Captain? How interesting. When last we chatted, I detected no such predilection in you"

-- Super-Villain Team-Up #10​

​

how about the writers of TV shows like nip/tuc and the shield ?(sorry don't know the various names)they deliver some good biting dialogue with a tint of audacious arrogance such as doom requires

 

[Sardaukar]

Personally, I hope that the filmmakers try to get across how intelligent Doom is compared to your average individual.

I don't have any Doom quotes, but I was reading Mark Millar's Red Son the other day, where Millar has Lex doing all these incredible mental feats throughout the whole book.

Here are a few quotes:

One moment, young man. Just let me switch off this portable tape recorder I designed in the washroom this morning. I'm teaching myself Urdu to keep my mind busy while I'm reading and playing chess with the monkeys .

(The story takes place in the 50s, before portable tape recorders were invented and the "monkeys" are actually fellow scientists).

Lois: Why's the volume turned down so low, honey? It's a quiz show. You love quiz shows.

Lex: I'm teaching myself how to lip-read, Lois. It only occurred to me this afternoon that I didn't know how."

Brainiac: I couldn't allow him (Lex) to debate with you, Superman. Entering a conversation with a level nine intelligence is more dangerous than any death trap. My calculations were that he could have talked you into suicide within fourteen minutes.