I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[Dragon]

Here's the problem: There is no gaurantee there is going to be more than one movie. Every potential franchis has to deal with this- They have no idea if their movie will make enough for a sequal. Because of this, the first film HAS to feel like it comes full circle. X-men did, Spider-man did, Blade did and even Superman did. The same thing happend with Star Wars, there was no gaurantee that Episode IV: A New Hope would make enough for them to pull off a sequal, which is why it works as a complete movie on it's own.


Now, just as much as everyone else, the changes to Doom DO bug me, however I understand why they did this and am willing to live with it.

All of the films you mention that became successful franchises left alot of doors open.

X-men had Wolverine, the main guy, leave to pursue his past, and made itclear the villains would be returning.

Spider-Man left Peter walking away from MJ and rejecting her affections.

Superman left the relationship between Supes and Lois unresolved.

Star Wars left a question as to who Leia was attracted to, and left the villain Darth Vader alive and unharmed.

The filmmakers were bold enough in their belief in these films to leave certain things open so that they could focus on other aspects. Were all of these films perfection? No way. But the FF shouldn't have been held back by what had been done in other films. They have been from day one, ground breakers.

 

[LordSimen]

All of the films you mention that became successful franchises left alot of doors open.

X-men had Wolverine, the main guy, leave to pursue his past, and made itclear the villains would be returning.

Spider-Man left Peter walking away from MJ and rejecting her affections.

Superman left the relationship between Supes and Lois unresolved.

Star Wars left a question as to who Leia was attracted to, and left the villain Darth Vader alive and unharmed.

The filmmakers were bold enough in their belief in these films to leave certain things open so that they could focus on other aspects. Were all of these films perfection? No way. But the FF shouldn't have been held back by what had been done in other films. They have been from day one, ground breakers.

Very true, but who's to say that this film won't leave things open as well? As far as we know we could have the Batman Begins effects where, while they do MENTION the Lazerus pit (like Latveria) it does not MEAN it doesn't exist and that they won't explore it in the future...

Note: I'm just using Latveria as an example...
Sorry if I mispelt any of the names.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Haven't read the whole thread, but, having read the novel, and being a big Doom fan, I can assure you they sure as **** didn't get it.

Doom is not Doom, and not just in name. In personality also. There is so little of Doom in there, it's depressing. I've discussed this so many times i've lost count. If people think he's faithful, then they don't know enough about him. Heck, if they think he's better, then they better go and read some of the great comics with Doom to see why their opinion might change pretty fast on the matter. Doom is not just a great villain, he's by and FAR the greatest villain.

Here's the old review I made about how Doom was portrayed in the book, since I have no envy to repeat myself, other than by quoting myself, of course:

Now, I had lost all hopes nearly a year ago. Having read the Frost script (which, btw, is nearly THE exact same as the newest movie, nearly nothing has changed), I was heavily disappointed by how Doom acted, his origin, and his powers. But, Lightning Strikez! gave me hopes. He's always been great doing so (and he should always continue to ) by providing us exemples as to why Doom from the movie wouldn't be THAT far away. Unfortunately, the exemples he gave were all that made Doom remotely close to his comic self.

Victor is madly in love with Sue, even if he often tries to deny it. Sure, when he goes ga-ga crazy, he begins to totally hate her, but that's something else (since he's crazy). The thing here, is that Victor, before his "accident" isn't Doom at all. Doom should always be Doom, even before his accident.

Here, he isn't. He's a ruthless businessman, who fought to be where he is, but that... isn't even CLOSE to Doom's dreams. He should see far much further than he does. When he goes crazy, he makes a reference to Leonard (his kind of secretary) about how he should think bigger. But, never (aside from here) does he ever even ATTEMP to show us (or try) to want something global, other than money and "more electricity".

Another thing. Since Doom was always Doom in the comics, he didn't think much bigger when he had his accident. He already wanted more. Here, we are led to believe that he was "human" before, but after his accident, someone acting like Doom can only be "crazy". That's what he is in the movie. A crazy metal dude. He's not a true "God among manking", he's a freak of nature that goes on a rampage, a lot like Electro himself often do. He's just NOT Doom. Thinking about it, his situation is simular to that of Norman Osborn in the first spiderman movie. Both got crazy after their accident, explaining why they were "eviiiIIiiil", which is lame, imo, since Doom was always much more than just evil. But here, that's all he is when he become "Doctor Doom"... (just the fact that he become Doctor Doom is horrible, since he should always have been himself).

And worse, much worse than all of that, he's not even HALF the scientific mind Richard his. What made Doom SUCH A GREAT villain (or heck, more than a villain) was his intellect. Here, sure, he's intelligent, manipulative, but so much less than Reed. Doom being anything less than Reed's equal (much less not even half his genius) is absolutely atrocious. Heck, Doom never does anything by himself. He always hired scientist and doctors to make his discoveries. There's even a scene (showed in the trailer), when he has to go to a doctor to know what is happening to him. MY GOD. We are talking about DOOM here. He would NEVER ask someone's else opinion, much less about his condition, when he himself could analyse it much better (alas, not here, though). For he is suppose to be DOOM. And DOOM is above all.

At the end, when he loses and become a living statue, the writers had the golden possibility to have Doom cry a last "RiiiIIIIIiiiichard". I mean, when I got there, I though it was the PERFECT PLACE. But no, instead he seems to cry a "noooooOOooooooooo" (and by all that is in the bottom of my holy rectum, I hope it's not as horrible as the one Vader cries at the end of ROTS).

I could have forgiven his relation to Sue, his mutant powers, but NOT what made him superior to all villains, his INTELLECT. That, imo, is a change I cannot forgive, which is stupid, and makes me cringe just thinking about it.

But that's not all. I won't go into his powers, and all, since we've all discussed that dozen of times here, but I want to address the Sue/Victor relationship.

It's a mess, imo. Lightning said that Doom never truly cared about Sue. Having read the book, i'd say he was wrong (sorry). Doom cared about Sue, a lot, even if he seems to want to not accept it. When she goes in Reed's arms, he is hurted a lot. But, all this really does is make Sue a bad character, imo. Really, she goes out two years with Victor. She probably fell "something" for him, for godsake. Two years. And yet, the instant Reed comes back, she runs in his arms. That, no problem here. She loved the dude even more than the old doctor. It's understandable. But, once Reed was back, she stopped caring about Victor. She didn't even noticed he existed anymore. I mean, when everything goes wrong for him, she doesn't even think about him. He could have died she wouldn't even have cared. That makes her something much closer to a bad girl (villain here) than a hero, imo. Victor goes crazy, and that's in part due to how she left him, and pull a finger on him, without no other reason than that she loved another man more. She completely left him, without even truly telling him how she truly felt about all of this. When he becomes a statue, at the very end, she's all too happy to be "discarded" of her ex-boyfriend, like some mean 16 years old adolescent on a rampage.

That's a pretty bad reason, imo. Exactly the kind of person I could never respect. That's the kind of character i'm going to root for in theatre ? Sure, i wanted the FF to win when I read the book, but not Sue. Victor could have fried her i'd have been relieved. Here's hoping Jessica Alba's so good she'll make me think otherwise.

So, Sue's a pretty messed up character here , and Doom's one of the worst adaptation possible of the greatest villain there is.

But, imo, movie Doom is still a great villain. He's easily, just after Magneto, the second best superhero movie villain. Easily. If he had been faithful, he would have took the first place without any difficulty, but oh well. A 10% faithful Doom is still better than most villains.

All in all, a month or two after writing that, when I rethink about it, I only have disgust about that awful adaptation. It's up there with CINO.

Bleh, I hate fox and marvel. Destroying the best villain there is.

If you people want to understand why Doom's such a great villain, unlike his movie counterpart, go read Secret war, or the Doom 2099 by Warren Ellis, or the three part storyarc by Chuck Dixon named "DOOM". I'd recommend those to the ones who don't know him much. Then, well, there is so much more.

 

[LordSimen]

Haven't read the whole thread, but, having read the novel, and being a big Doom fan, I can assure you they sure as **** didn't get it.

All in all, a month or two after writing that, when I rethink about it, I only have disgust about that awful adaptation. It's up there with CINO.

Bleh, I hate fox and marvel. Destroying the best villain there is.

That was a good read, and I agree. Doom will probably be a very bad adaptation... But can I ask, how were Johnny, Sue, Reed and Ben treated? Were they faithful?

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

That was a good read, and I agree. Doom will probably be a very bad adaptation... But can I ask, how were Johnny, Sue, Reed and Ben treated? Were they faithful?

Lightning did a better Doom review.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Lightning did a better Doom review.

You know, Lighting's a great person. I wouldn't judge his opinion, since I respect him.

But i'm sure the only reason you prefered his, was because he was positive. Don't deny it.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

That was a good read, and I agree. Doom will probably be a very bad adaptation... But can I ask, how were Johnny, Sue, Reed and Ben treated? Were they faithful?

I already talk about what I though about Sue in my above review.

But the other 3 were pretty great, especially Thing and Johnny. Both felt faithful AND good, which might save the movie for me. Maybe.

(oh, and it was with Reed I connected the most, strange)

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

You know, Lighting's a great person. I wouldn't judge his opinion, since I respect him.

But i'm sure the only reason you prefered his, was because he was positive. Don't deny it.

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

I bashed Julian ? When ? It's been one of the thing i've been the most open actually. And, if you had been there last summer, I was defending this movie version. I defended it for 6 long months, finding every positive aspect about it. Wanting, believing it was still possible for us to have a faithful Doom among all of these changes. But then, hope began to fade, when EVERYTHING I was hoping they wouldn't mess with, well, happened. Everything, I swear. Everytime I found something that could give me hope, a week after, Fox or marvel, or whoever was in the process of making the movie, came with something to make me pay for having hopes.

Some months ago, I discovered there were no hopes anymore. There was too many facts showing us nearly nothing was kept from the comic Doom. And then, I read the novel, and I knew it all. All of it. If you know Doom, and you read the novel, you sure as heck won't find him in there. Maybe some references to him, there and there. But that's pretty much it.

Just to make you cleary understand it all, the movie version of Doom is NOT Doom. What it is, is a "what if Norman Osborn was born in Latveria, named Victor Von Doom, came to america, got himself his own business like he was always supposed to, came in contact with the FF, and got himself Colossus' and Electro's powers, and got crazy". Because that's what we are getting.

Oh, and how could I be positive now ? I mean, they adapted my favorite comic book character of all time, and change EVERYTHING about him, even to his core. How could I be positive now that I know there is no more hope ???

Even if they make a sequel, he'll still be so much less intelligent than he is in the comics, not even half the mind Reed is. THAT'S what makes Doom such a great character, that, and his impossible will, which (with his intelligence) is above ALL. Yes, all.

They kept none of the two.

 

[Kelly]

Guys......good lord.......you aren't going to agree......its very evident....LOL....

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

Oh, and another thing. Of course I've been against this movie version of Doom long before the novel. You know why ? Because i've kept myself update since a long time, along with our fellow posters here. We've know about Doom's situation and changes since a year now. And it only went worst since then.

 

[lockjaw]

Nope. I preferred his because he seemed to actually give an open minded opinion. While you seem to have had a vendetta long before you even read the novel. I have seen your posts from a long while back bashing Doom and even Julian McMahon. And I don't care if you hate the movie Doom but I just sense a hatred for him no matter what so that is why I find your review less noteworthy.
Also Lightning read the script and I don't know if you have but that to me is enough reason alone to prefer his.

I had it (the shooting script 1st!) and I gotta tell you there really isnt any difference between that and the novel, so let's just hope Mr.McMahon can bring something to the role that isnt on the written page. Other than that all we can do is just enjoy Movie Doom for what he is

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Guys......good lord.......you aren't going to agree......its very evident....LOL....

Well, maybe, but i'm not so sure. I'm hoping he'll understand how truly unfaithful this Doom version is.

Not that he won't like this new version. Big difference here. And I hate when people think I don't have an open mind. I do. More than most people. But do people call Catwoman fans "not open mind" when they trash CINO ?

I mean, if you truly know Doom, you know they didn't keep much in there. I'm positive on nearly every comic book adaption they are making. Just not when they change that much. This Doom thing is too much for me to accept.

 

[Kelly]

Well, maybe, but i'm not so sure. I'm hoping he'll understand how truly unfaithful this Doom version is.

Not that he won't like this new version. Big difference here. And I hate when people think I don't have an open mind. I do. More than most people. But do people call Catwoman fans "not open mind" when they trash CINO ?

I mean, if you truly know Doom, you know they didn't keep much in there. I'm positive on nearly every comic book adaption they are making. Just not when they change that much. This Doom thing is too much for me to accept.

*holds up hands*.....no argument here.....

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

I bashed Julian ? When ? It's been one of the thing i've been the most open actually. And, if you had been there last summer, I was defending this movie version. I defended it for 6 long months, finding every positive aspect about it. Wanting, believing it was still possible for us to have a faithful Doom among all of these changes. But then, hope began to fade, when EVERYTHING I was hoping they wouldn't mess with, well, happened. Everything, I swear. Everytime I found something that could give me hope, a week after, Fox or marvel, or whoever was in the process of making the movie, came with something to make me pay for having hopes.

Some months ago, I discovered there were no hopes anymore. There was too many facts showing us nearly nothing was kept from the comic Doom. And then, I read the novel, and I knew it all. All of it. If you know Doom, and you read the novel, you sure as heck won't find him in there. Maybe some references to him, there and there. But that's pretty much it.

Just to make you cleary understand it all, the movie version of Doom is NOT Doom. What it is, is a "what if Norman Osborn was born in Latveria, named Victor Von Doom, came to america, got himself his own business like he was always supposed to, came in contact with the FF, and got himself Colossus' and Electro's powers, and got crazy". Because that's what we are getting.

Oh, and how could I be positive now ? I mean, they adapted my favorite comic book character of all time, and change EVERYTHING about him, even to his core. How could I be positive now that I know there is no more hope ???

Even if they make a sequel, he'll still be so much less intelligent than he is in the comics, not even half the mind Reed is. THAT'S what makes Doom such a great character, that, and his impossible will, which (with his intelligence) is above ALL. Yes, all.

They kept none of the two.

The thing that sticks out the most in my mind is when you said McMahon is too small and Doom is supposed to be huge. And I replied back to you that he is 6'2 (taller than the rest of the cast) weighs 182 pounds, and is going to be built like a tank. And you kept replying in a way that made it seem you felt McMahon is inadequate for the role.

And concerning his powers. Judging from the new trailer I think they actually fixed it to the point where it should make us happy. This is how it seems they have done Doom's powers. He draws electricity to himself...BUT he shoots it as BLAST or BEAM...which is better than the electricity IMO. Go watch the Japanese trailer and watch Doom take out the guy in the parking garage and you will see what I am talking about

 

[Herr Logan]

Very true, but who's to say that this film won't leave things open as well? As far as we know we could have the Batman Begins effects where, while they do MENTION the Lazerus pit (like Latveria) it does not MEAN it doesn't exist and that they won't explore it in the future...

Note: I'm just using Latveria as an example...
Sorry if I mispelt any of the names.

They did not mention the Lazarus pit! I've seen that movie three times, and I can assure you, my hyper-analytical mind was doing its work. No Lazarus pit, no Talia, no ecology element to R'as' world paradigm. Don't go tellin' lies, boy!

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

Well, maybe, but i'm not so sure. I'm hoping he'll understand how truly unfaithful this Doom version is.

Not that he won't like this new version. Big difference here. And I hate when people think I don't have an open mind. I do. More than most people. But do people call Catwoman fans "not open mind" when they trash CINO ?

I mean, if you truly know Doom, you know they didn't keep much in there. I'm positive on nearly every comic book adaption they are making. Just not when they change that much. This Doom thing is too much for me to accept.

Haha...have you not read my first post?? I never said he was faithful. I even said I like his movie origin better than what the comic version would have looked like on screen. And I think they way they set up for the more faithful Doom for the sequel is perfect.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

The thing that sticks out the most in my mind is when you said McMahon is too small and Doom is supposed to be huge. And I replied back to you that he is 6'2 (taller than the rest of the cast) weighs 182 pounds, and is going to be built like a tank. And you kept replying in a way that made it seem you felt McMahon is inadequate for the role.

And concerning his powers. Judging from the new trailer I think they actually fixed it to the point where it should make us happy. This is how it seems they have done Doom's powers. He draws electricity to himself...BUT he shoots it as BLAST or BEAM...which is better than the electricity IMO. Go watch the Japanese trailer and watch Doom take out the guy in the parking garage and you will see what I am talking about

Um, you misread me then. When I said Julian was too small, it wasn't because HE was too small, (since Victor von Doom without his armor isn't bigger than Julian), but rather that NO HUMAN can be as big as Doom is when he's got his armor.

So, of course Julian looks WAY too small when he's in his costume. That's a fact movie Doom isn't as big as Doom in the comics is.

I'm hoping you do understand it, but then again, i'm pretty sure I said the same thing I just wrote back then. Sigh.

Oh, and I've never complained about the FX in the movie. And i'm pretty sure you know that. You do know I hate that he shoots electricity because that gives him mutant powers ? And not because of how it looks ?

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

Um, you misread me then. When I said Julian was too small, it wasn't because HE was too small, (since Victor von Doom without his armor isn't bigger than Julian), but rather that NO HUMAN can be as big as Doom is when he's got his armor.

So, of course Julian looks WAY too small when he's in his costume. That's a fact movie Doom isn't as big as Doom in the comics is.

I'm hoping you do understand it, but then again, i'm pretty sure I said the same thing I just wrote back then. Sigh.

Oh, and I've never complained about the FX in the movie. And i'm pretty sure you know that. You do know I hate that he shoots electricity because that gives him mutant powers ? And not because of how it looks ?

Well I think your just restating what you said so it sounds different now but whatever I am done arguing. And read what I said. From the looks of the new trailer he doesn't shoot electricity anymore he just uses it to charge up. But enough of this debate that has page 50 written all over it.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Haha...have you not read my first post?? I never said he was faithful. I even said I like his movie origin better than what the comic version would have looked like on screen. And I think they way they set up for the more faithful Doom for the sequel is perfect.

How ? He's still not even half the mind Reed is. Heck, Reed is AT LEAST 10 times more of a genius than Victor is. At least.

Just that destroy ever having Doom. How can he be Doom if he's not a genius ??????

That's like seeing a batman movie where he's got superpowers, can shoot batrang out of his hands, and has mutated bats wings. And he's a mindless fighter, with Alfred (via telepathy) giving him every details about what to do, since batman wouldn't be intelligent enough. And all of that would take place in the forest, with vague mention of Gotham.

And then, at the end, we learn that batman might fall into gotham by accident.

I'm sure we'd be getting a faithful batman when the sequel would come out. Oh so sure.

If you know Doom, you know the situation is the same. Heck, it's probably worse than the new one I just wrote for the bat.

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Well I think your just restating what you said so it sounds different now but whatever I am done arguing. And read what I said. From the looks of the new trailer he doesn't shoot electricity anymore he just uses it to charge up. But enough of this debate that has page 50 written all over it.

Ok, if you don't want to admit you misread me in the past, and want to misread me again, I say we stop this.

I'm just killing time here, i've got nothing against you, really.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Ok, if you don't want to admit you misread me in the past, and want to misread me again, I say we stop this.

I'm just killing time here, i've got nothing against you, really.

here see if this cheers you up

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

here see if this cheers you up

Is that the new Kong trailer???

 

[Hunter Rider]

Is that the new Kong trailer???

Its from the preview of the new Kong trailer

 

[Herr Logan]

How ? He's still not even half the mind Reed is. Heck, Reed is AT LEAST 10 times more of a genius than Victor is. At least.

Just that destroy ever having Doom. How can he be Doom if he's not a genius ??????

That's like seeing a batman movie where he's got superpowers, can shoot batrang out of his hands, and has mutated bats wings. And he's a mindless fighter, with Alfred (via telepathy) giving him every details about what to do, since batman wouldn't be intelligent enough. And all of that would take place in the forest, with vague mention of Gotham.

And then, at the end, we learn that batman might fall into gotham by accident.

I'm sure we'd be getting a faithful batman when the sequel would come out. Oh so sure.

If you know Doom, you know the situation is the same. Heck, it's probably worse than the new one I just wrote for the bat.

As much as I'm disgusted with what they've done with movie Doom (as well as the plebeians that continue to childishly defend that decision), very little in this world could be worse than what you just wrote about the bat.