I Am Doom....discuss me [merged-2]

[RedIsNotBlue]

How did Doom gain all of his fame, money, and power? Dumb luck? Your telling me it didn't take any genius or brain power to get to where he is in the movie??

 

[Dragon]

As the owner of the space station, shouldn't it be Doom's responsibility to ensure there's adequate shielding?

A point of contention between Reed and Doom would be "Reed said the cosmic storm wouldn't be strong enough to penetrate the station", and "Doom said the station's shielding would be strong enough to withstand the cosmic storm".

Reed assures Ben it should be okay, so Ben could blame Reed for his condition... but Doom has no one to blame but himself.

No. Reed makes all of the calculations which the team are counting on to be correct. Since it's Reed's project Doom is counting on Reed to be correct.

 

[Dragon]

How did Doom gain all of his fame, money, and power? Dumb luck? Your telling me it didn't take any genius or brain power to get to where he is in the movie??

Apparently, he's a financial wizard. But Doom is supposed to be a scientific genius on par with Reed, which isn't shown. Donald Trump is no Dr. Doom.

But you know what? I'm beginning to see why all of the villains in the Marvel movies are rich guys. It's a metaphor for the real villain behind all of Marvel's movies. Avi Arad.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

Apparently, he's a financial wizard. But Doom is supposed to be a scientific genius on par with Reed, which isn't shown. Donald Trump is no Dr. Doom.

But you know what? I'm beginning to see why all of the villains in the Marvel movies are rich guys. It's a metaphor for the real villain behind all of Marvel's movies. Avi Arad.

You cannot admit can you? How does Doctor Doom get into the same college as Reed? With money? No. He earns a scholarship USING HIS INTELLIGENCE. Doom does not grow up rich like Trump did, buddy.

 

[Dark Phantom]

Think of it this way: If the origin used in this movie was originally used in the comics, would you have any problem with it? Why can't origins be changed around? Some people may not like this origin, but there are others who are satisfied like me.

This my whole point on people saying, "It should be faithful to the comics". Not everyone can be satisfied one way or another. No one is going to get there way on how a polt should go. Still, the essence of Doctor Doom is still there. They haven't changed him into a maniacal nutcase like the Joker. The origin is the only major thing that has been changed. Plus, I really can't stand this nit-picking of every little thing you see wrong.

Dragon, you did make some good points. But when some good factors where placed in front of you, you had to dislike them because it's not what you wanted as an origin.

 

[GoblinScrier]

This was in the novelization so I am not sure if it will be in the movie, but right when they are getting ready to go into space and they are having the press conference, Victor says, "We are on the threshold...look how far a little boy from Latveria has come..." thus assuming humble beginnings to the greatness that he has become. It took intelligence to start his company, since both Reed and Victor graduated (in the movie anyway) from MIT.

It will take genius for him to conquer Latveria, etc.

It may be far from the comic version, but in the end, this Doom will definitely be faithful enough to satisfy the comic fans.

 

[wetgorilla]

You cannot admit can you? How does Doctor Doom get into the same college as Reed? With money? No. He earns a scholarship USING HIS INTELLIGENCE. Doom does not grow up rich like Trump did, buddy.

You're playing connect the dots in an attempt to reach a conclusion that isn't even at the end of of that pok-a-dot trail! Attending MIT doesn't mean an individual is on a level of intelligence with the comic Doom. So, if you're trying to justify and build a foundation based on that - try again! There are thousands who have attended and graduated from MIT, CalTech and various other universities - No biggie!

I have two friends who are graduates from MIT and CalTech, other than being very sharp guys, they're in no way prepared to design a time-machine or develop an army of Doombots! They're not even on the same level with Doom on his most uninspired of days!

Character development, during a movie, is based on information presented to the audience via actions or dialog - not conjectures made from a college he may have attended. Having invented something would definately outweigh any college attendance. What is shown to the audience is Doom needing to go to another scientist for an opinion as to what is happing to him!

I think you're reaching for a justification. Just embrace the fact that the production team screwed up! Life will be easier!

Wetgorilla

Oh, and enjoy the movie!

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

You're playing connect the dots in an attempt to reach a conclusion that isn't even at the end of of that pok-a-dot trail! Attending MIT doesn't mean an individual is on a level of intelligence with the comic Doom. So, if you're trying to justify and build a foundation based on that - try again! There are thousands who have attended and graduated from MIT, CalTech and various other universities - No biggie!

I have two friends who are graduates from MIT and CalTech, other than being very sharp guys, they're in no way prepared to design a time-machine or develop an army of Doombots! They're not even on the same level with Doom on his most uninspired of days!

Character development, during a movie, is based on information presented to the audience via actions or dialog - not conjectures made from a college he may have attended. Having invented something would definately outweigh any college attendance. What is shown to the audience is Doom needing to go to another scientist for an opinion as to what is happing to him!

I think you're reaching for a justification. Just embrace the fact that the production team screwed up! Life will be easier!

Wetgorilla

Oh, and enjoy the movie!

Jesus. You just ignore certain parts of what I say for you to make a counter statement don't you? I said how did Doom GET INTO MIT? Is it because he is a financial wizard? No. He gets a scholrship because of his intelligence. Now if in the movie they say Victor gets to attend MIT because of money then I will shut my mouth up. But if not then accept the fact that Victor has just as much smarts as Reed.

Oh yeah and by screwed up you mean they didn't stay completely faithful to the source material then they did. But some purists like you believe once it is in the comics then that is the best way to do it...period. Accept that sometimes changes can be for the better. Have a nice flight!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Sure, these things may be there, but how well are they done?

For instance, I'm not a big fan of the Hulk movie.

The Hulk in that movie seems follow all the criteria...

1. He's big, strong, indescructible, etc.

2. He gets more powerful the madder he gets.

3. He has a "weak", mild mannered alter ego.

But was the character in that film nearly as good in the movie as he is in the comics?

Not in my opinion.

Bad analogy, the character Hulk was executed very well in that movie. The addressed his physcological and physical (madder he got stronger he got) issues very well, however the movies downfall was it had a weak third act and was anticlimatic.

So the Hulk was practically a mirror image of comic Hulk, however he existed in a poorly planned out plot

 

[Joe Rockhead]

I'm just curious. If Doom isn't portrayed as a genius level intellect on a par with Reed, where does the rivalry come into play?

If Doom is strictly a financial wizard, than he couldn't possibly compare his financial knowledge with Reed's scientific knowledge, could he?

And on the trip, is Doom strictly a financial backer, or is he a scientific backer? If he's strictly financial, he'd have no business going into space on a scientific mission. He has to bring some scientific expertise with him, doesn't he?

No, I guess he's just a glorified Donald Trump, that must be it. It would take a real leap of faith to believe he understands quantum physics.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Jesus. You just ignore certain parts of what I say for you to make a counter statement don't you? I said how did Doom GET INTO MIT? Is it because he is a financial wizard? No. He gets a scholrship because of his intelligence. Now if in the movie they say Victor gets to attend MIT because of money then I will shut my mouth up. But if not then accept the fact that Victor has just as much smarts as Reed.

Oh yeah and by screwed up you mean they didn't stay completely faithful to the source material then they did. But some purists like you believe once it is in the comics then that is the best way to do it...period. Accept that sometimes changes can be for the better. Have a nice flight!

I agree sending him to Reed's college seems to make the suggestion that Doom is just as smart

However the dumbing down probably comes off because Doom does not make a giant suit of armor for himself.

 

[wetgorilla]

I never said Saint didn't give his opinion. I just said everything I have seen him type about Doom has seemed purely negative and I don't feel the same as him. With Lightning he is a highly respected poster and the things I have read from him seem level headed and not too positive and not too negative. I would go with his opinion over Saint's on anything. Open minded to me means the person looks at it from both sides of the spectrum and can accept something different. So I say again...Saint can have his opinion...I just don't agree with it.

I never said Saint gave his opinion....I said he stated his position and stated reasons from which he based his conclusions. Conclusions by definition are based on a form of reasoning. Not, on feelings or ungrounded opinions.

Facts? When did facts come into play? This whole thread has been basically nothing but feelings and opinions. Bingo!

There are plenty of facts concerning this movie being debated here. Opinions are what shouldn't be debated unless they're stated as a conclusion based on sound reasoning. People should be ready to defend such statements.
Fact 1 - Doom needs to consult another scientist concerning his condition(Something the real Doom whould never have done).
Fact 2 - Doom blames Richards for screwing up on his calculations regarding the Cosmic Cloud (which is true and thus he is somewhat justified in being pissed).
Fact 3 - Doom is given an origin nowhere near the real origin and that origin is in no way capable of producing characteristics on the same level as those belonging to the real Doom.
Fact 4 - He is a mutant gone mad. Before running through the cosmic cloud he was an accepted and respected citizen of society (the movie has him going on a rampage). This is not how the comic Doom is portrayed.
Fact 5 - The writer plucked a love-triangle/relationship from HollowMan starring Kevin Bacon and dressed it up for this movie. Sickening!

There are many more 'facts' but, I'm going to leave the list with the five given.

Nope but he dedicated an entire thread on a script review of the characters. So your telling me I should go with someone who is basing his opinion on a novel that has been released long before the movie? Sorry for agreeing with someone who has a better knowledge of the film.

I read LightninStrike's review and I can state without a doubt it contained much less facts than the review given by Saint. Saint had much more reasoning behind his conclusions. From what Saint has claimed, he read the novel as well as the Frost script (which is almost identical with the novel). Now, I haven't read the novel (and have no plans to do so) but, I'm willing to wager it will match the script that was shown to me.

How is L.S. suppose to have more knowledge than Saint concerning this moving?? I don't understand what you're basing this on other than a 'feeling' derived from L.S.'s review.

Most of those individuals who would favor his review over that by Saint would be for the same reason you've stated earlier. 'Positive' and 'Negative' - two over used and self-coined terms!

Wetgorilla

 

[Dragon]

I'm just curious. If Doom isn't portrayed as a genius level intellect on a par with Reed, where does the rivalry come into play?

Exactly. It doesn't. They rely on tied cliches like Doom's romantic (or sexual) desire for Sue, Doom using his wealth to rub Reed's nose in it and finally Doom's hatred of Reed for Doom's mutation. CHEESE.

If Doom is strictly a financial wizard, than he couldn't possibly compare his financial knowledge with Reed's scientific knowledge, could he?

No he can't. So you see our problem.

And on the trip, is Doom strictly a financial backer, or is he a scientific backer? If he's strictly financial, he'd have no business going into space on a scientific mission. He has to bring some scientific expertise with him, doesn't he?

Again, exactly. And no he doesn't make use of his scientific expretise on the mission. You've pointed out further weaknesses in the script.

No, I guess he's just a glorified Donald Trump, that must be it. It would take a real leap of faith to believe he understands quantum physics.

Pretty much, since we don't see it.

 

[wetgorilla]

Jesus. You just ignore certain parts of what I say for you to make a counter statement don't you? I said how did Doom GET INTO MIT? Is it because he is a financial wizard? No. He gets a scholrship because of his intelligence. Now if in the movie they say Victor gets to attend MIT because of money then I will shut my mouth up. But if not then accept the fact that Victor has just as much smarts as Reed.

Oh yeah and by screwed up you mean they didn't stay completely faithful to the source material then they did. But some purists like you believe once it is in the comics then that is the best way to do it...period. Accept that sometimes changes can be for the better. Have a nice flight!

You're not reading. I'm saying GETTING INTO MIT doesn't constitute genius. Period. It's not that impressive once an individual is out in the real world of business and life. Also, what an audience learns about a character during a movie is by what is shown in action or dialog - NOT conjecture (what you are doing with this MIT thing). Stop it.

If you'd have read anything I've posted in the far past of these threads....I'm not bothered by not remaining 100% pure to the source material. But rather, whether or not a production team dismantles character motivations and character relationships during an adaptation! This is different than demanding a comic movie be 100% identical to the source material.

Wetgorilla

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

The only thing that really bothers me is the love triangle they added between Victor, Reed, and Sue. I am with you on that...I feel it was uneccessary and studio added garbage. Hopefully it will be toned down from what I have heard. But everything else is great IMO. I just like it better than how I think the comic origin would have played out on screen. You and others seem to just hate it because it is unfaithful. I am able to accept that things can be changed for the better and because it written in the comics doesn't make it the best thing possible.

As for your facts I see no problems with 1 through 3. Four I can understand why you can be upset. Making Doom a man who becomes a mutant. I can accept it. I think it makes a great base and better timing from where Doom takes off into becoming a more faithful version of the comic Doom. Yeah...let me make that clear. I have no problems with the comic Doom I just think his origin on screen would be silly. But I am sick of saying that.

And let's just leave it at that. This endless bickering is pointless. I like the movie Doom and I feel he is faithful enough for this movie and will be even more faithful in the next one. And you think they screwed up. Can we just leave it at that?

 

[wetgorilla]

The only thing that really bothers me is the love triangle they added between Victor, Reed, and Sue. I am with you on that...I feel it was uneccessary and studio added garbage. Hopefully it will be toned down from what I have heard. But everything else is great IMO. I just like it better than how I think the comic origin would have played out on screen. You and others seem to just hate it because it is unfaithful. I am able to accept that things can be changed for the better and because it written in the comics doesn't make it the best thing possible.

As for your facts I see no problems with 1 through 3. Four I can understand why you can be upset. Making Doom a man who becomes a mutant. I can accept it. I think it makes a great base and better timing from where Doom takes off into becoming a more faithful version of the comic Doom. Yeah...let me make that clear. I have no problems with the comic Doom I just think his origin on screen would be silly. But I am sick of saying that.

And let's just leave it at that. This endless bickering is pointless. I like the movie Doom and I feel he is faithful enough for this movie and will be even more faithful in the next one. And you think they screwed up. Can we just leave it at that?

I understand where you're coming from. In fact, I have a brother who is more aligned with your take on this production than my own. So, it's understandable that we all have slightly different accepted criteria and positions concerning this movie. Thanks for the excellent discourse you have created with your excellent posts!

Wetgorilla

 

[wetgorilla]

Regardless of what changes have been made or what aspects have been preserved, I think we'll all enjoy a day at the movies this July 8th!


Wetgorilla

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

I understand where you're coming from. In fact, I have a brother who is more aligned with your take on this production than my own. So, it's understandable that we all have slightly different accepted criteria and positions concerning this movie. Thanks for the excellent discourse you have created with your excellent posts!

Wetgorilla

And I just want to make it clear I started this thread to state my opinion and feelings on this subject and to find out how others felt. I never intended to piss others off or to try to change someone elses view.

 

[wetgorilla]

And I just want to make it clear I started this thread to state my opinion and feelings on this subject and to find out how others felt. I never intended to piss others off or to try to change someone elses view.

But, that's how these forums develop regardless, RINB. By definition, a forum must have two or more opposing viewpoints and it's through debate any real ideas are developed among ourselves. If a thread had just one viewpoint it would, be a nothing more than a self-congradulating group without any substance at all.

So, I think you've succeeded with your thread, RINB. Congradulations!



Wetgorilla

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

But, that's how these forums develop regardless, RINB. By definition, a forum must have two or more opposing viewpoints and it's through debate any real ideas are developed among ourselves. If a thread had just one viewpoint it would, be a nothing more than a self-congradulating group without any substance at all.

So, I think you've succeeded with your thread, RINB. Congradulations!



Wetgorilla

I knew people were gonna oppose my views and I knew some would be pissed. But I am just saying I didn't have this intention. I like to discuss things in a civilized manner but unfortuantely it is rare that happens on here.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

You're not reading. I'm saying GETTING INTO MIT doesn't constitute genius. Period. It's not that impressive once an individual is out in the real world of business and life. Also, what an audience learns about a character during a movie is by what is shown in action or dialog - NOT conjecture (what you are doing with this MIT thing). Stop it.

If you'd have read anything I've posted in the far past of these threads....I'm not bothered by not remaining 100% pure to the source material. But rather, whether or not a production team dismantles character motivations and character relationships during an adaptation! This is different than demanding a comic movie be 100% identical to the source material.

Wetgorilla

This is true.

Socrates once said if you don't do the good you don't know the good

good as being substitute for anything really. In this case we have a character Doom, who supposedly goes to MIT but doesn't show any qualities of being a genius. It doesn't matter what history you set up for a character, what matters is how the character is portrayed.

In this case they have dumbed down Doom. This is wrong. The comic states Doom is Richards equal, or [perhaps] even more brillant. The reason this is important is that whereas Doom is a genius like Reed, he has an over abundance of pride, which often leads to his downfall, the same pride that made him Doom. This pride makes him shoot beyond his means, and this is where Reed and the FF come in and foil his plot.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

This is true.

Socrates once said if you don't do the good you don't know the good

good as being substitute for anything really. In this case we have a character Doom, who supposedly goes to MIT but doesn't show any qualities of being a genius. It doesn't matter what history you set up for a character, what matters is how the character is portrayed.

In this case they have dumbed down Doom. This is wrong. The comic states Doom is Richards equal, or [perhaps] even more brillant. The reason this is important is that whereas Doom is a genius like Reed, he has an over abundance of pride, which often leads to his downfall, the same pride that made him Doom. This pride makes him shoot beyond his means, and this is where Reed and the FF come in and foil his plot.

How many scholarships does MIT give out?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

How many scholarships does MIT give out?

I can't imagine they give out many. To even apply you need a 550 or higher in math on the SATs.

however that is irrelevant. If they want to make him out to be a genius, he needs to act like one, its doesn't matter how they set up his past

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

I can't imagine they give out many. To even apply you need a 550 or higher in math on the SATs.

however that is irrelevant. If they want to make him out to be a genius, he needs to act like one, its doesn't matter how they set up his past

How is that irrelevant? In the comics he gets a scholarship from his intelligence and it seems to be that way in the movie. Just because he doesn't act as dorky as Reed doesn't make him dumb. Well whatever I am tired of trying bring things to attention.

 

[Grimm]

Personally...I think things could have been handled just as well with the comic origin. Instead of Reed getting Doom to fund the project, Nasa (or whatever) would fund it. Victor would still be from Latveria, but (like in the comics) he was given an opportunity to learn at MIT with Reed. They've had years of tension between the two, and now that Reed is getting his big chance, Victor "visits" to wish him luck...and sabatoge the mission. After they return to earth with their powers, Doom gets his armor and the rest of the movie could play out like it's already going to. *shrug*...I don't mind his mutation, I just think that more creativity should have been taken with expanding his origin for the film.