Comics I fear for the current status of Superman.

[Spike_x1]

Superman was never meant to be 'super-intelligent', at least not by my personal standards. I think some of the people at DC want to highten Superman up to where he surpasses Batman in everything. But that isn't what it should be like. where Batman lacks in super powers, he makes up for with quick and sharp intellect: that is how he is even worthy to stand in superman's presence!

Superman's IQ should never be anything above slightly average. say probably 110-115 maybe.

As far as being omniscient, I'm undecided where they should draw the line. Hard to say for sure.

Superman's always been a very, very smart guy. Even in the early post-crisis years. Maybe not "Super" intelligent, but definitely of a genius-level intellect.

 

[KaptainKrypton]

I have no problem with Superman being powered up. The only reason that wouldn't work in a storyline is if the writers drop the ball. Although I like Byrne's take, it could also be said that his depowering of Superman is just a cop-out to make it easier to write a slugfest. Look at Alan Moore's run on Supreme. It used all of the Silver Age-type elements, and it IMO was loads more creative and engrossing than anything Byrne or Jurgens spat forth (even though Supreme was basically written as a Silver Age Superman).

I don't think we'll be seeing Superman do things like he did in the old days where he used telescopic vision to read lips in another galaxy. A happy medium is okay for me, and I think that is what we'll get. I personally couldn't stand watching a guy with a lousy gun or explosive get the best of Superman. It's insulting. I damn sure don't want to watch Mediocreman or Prettygoodman. Super is on the title for a reason. For that kind of standard physical conflict drama, I read/watch Spidey or Batman. DC either needs to up the ante of his rogues' power levels, or make the villains more intelligent in their attempts to take out Superman and have them hatch better schemes to take him down.

It's like the JLU episode "Destroyer." Superman unloads on Darkseid enough to shatter buildings and nearly knock him into another zipcode, but Darkseid smiles and uses the Agony Matrix to bring him swiftly to his knees. He nearly kills him with intelligence, not simply knocking him around. That's what is still unsettling with me about the Doomsday storyline. It was scripted as well as it could be for how dumb the premise was, but Luthor and a few other top-tiers should've ganged up on him and cornered him for once (like I believe the Question suggested once). Creativity in the plotting is what will make or break Superman, not whether his power levels are increased (to an extent).

 

[Kurosawa]

Yet, there are some books in which Supes appears to have only average intelligence.

I'll come out and admit that Golden Age Superman was meant to be smart. But as time went on, less and lesse emphasis was layed on his 'intellect.' Fans just wanted to really read about his powers. He was always clever, yes, but has not always exhibited unnatural genius.

Irrelevant. The original creator's intentions always take precedence over minor deviations.

Superman is supposed to have high intelligence. His father was the greatest scientist of a highly advanced civilization.

It's what Jerry Siegel intended.

 

[The Question]

For 20 years now, ever since DKR and MOS, DC has been pushing the idea that Superman is a country bumpkin boyscout dork and that Batman is the real badass of the DCU who could kick Supermans ass and outsmart him anytime he wished.

Actually, I'm not too fond of that portrayal of Batman, either.

To fix Superman, DC needs to go back to Jerry Siegel's core concepts of the character and they need to base the characters visual style more on what Shuster did, with a touch of Curt Swan thrown in.

Character concepts, maybe. But I don't think the artists should be so limited in terms of visual style.

Superman needs to be the reality, Clark the disguise. It's what Siegel intended.

For me, at least, that just seems far too simple. People are complicated. People are multifaceted. A fellow can seem like a corny nerd most of the time, and then turn out to be the single most badass mofo on the planet, and yet neither side would really be false. Clark is Superman, and Superman is Clark. They're the same person, just in different situations.

Krypton needs to be based on the visions of Alex Raymond and Fritz Lang, not the bucket of throw-up that Byrne hacked out. "Flash Gordon Krypton" is what Joe Shuster INTENDED for Krypton to be.

I know we've gone over it alot, but I still don't see what's inherently wrong with Byrne's Krypton. Was it happy sunshine land? No. Was it nazi Germany? No. It was just a highly advanced, utopian society. I really don't think it's worse or better than anyone else's version of Krypton. They all seem pretty good to me.

The Clark/Superman/Lois triangle was what Siegel intended for the strip to have, but it's also important to note that DC stole creative control of Superman from S & S over the "K-Metal" story, where Lois was to find out Superman's real identity. So the marriage itself is not a bad thing, but the way Lois has walked all over the stupid country bumpkin boyscout that DC has stupidly turned Superman into is a disgrace.

What are you talking about. How has she "walked all over him"?

His father was the greatest scientist of a highly advanced civilization.

So? Just because his biological father was a scientific genius doesn't mean he has to be. Personally, I think Supes should be very inteligent, but not in any scientific way.

 

[charl_huntress]

the Timm/Dini team and the DCAU really captured Superman's power level the best.

Ohhh...I don't know abou this one? In STAS he was weak. It's not that he's got his ass kicked all the time, but he's pushed back and strains A LOT. That was my problem with his power levels in STAS. Bullets are knocking him around and things that shouldn't even phase him have him straining...Timm went overboard there.

AND...LET'S not mention JL season one. I...OMG....I...OMG....no words!

As for Supes direction in the comics, I'm not worried right now. They seem to be going in a good direction, and though I know some don't agree I think the re-incorporation of SOME SA aspects isn't so bad. It's hard to say right now, but in comparison to what had been churned out, Busiek is staying consistent. This may change when the writers are shuffled though.

 

[Nerial]

I posted this on another thread about Superman's intellect, and I think it holds valid here:

I'm going to argue that being a genius doesn't mean you can't be naive and also fall for traps. I mean...

...who doesn't know a nerd--really smart, well educated--that has fallen for a bully prank, or has gotten their head dunked in the toilet (or something to that effect)? From what I've seen, intellectuals are many times the butt of jokes and the most gullible people on the planet.

Superman is not clever like Lex, nor does he have the creativity. He's not a detective like Batman; the boy lacks street-smarts. But, he can comprehend book-smarts--theories, languages, mechanics, math--these types of things that require very little bias to understand.

Think about it. Superman is all about truth and justice--he's extremely idealistic. Wouldn't it make sense that his intellectual strength lies in fields that are prone to find absolute truths like math and science?

 

[SatEL]

I like Superman having incredible power, just as long as they don't have him doing to far feats I'm game. The whole time during Infinte Crisis I was praying he would just slap the taste outta Superboy Prime. Superman is supposed to be SUPERman. I feel Morrison and Johns have portryed him best. He's supposed to always win. I don't understand the need to see him struggle there's plenty other characters like that to chose from.








Geoff Johns' run on Flash is arguably the best run on Flash ever and he was at that power set.

You are correct Superman shouldnt be weak but powerful thats one of the things that drew me to him the fact that his so powerful yet so gentle i say make supes the badest of them all/

 

[The Question]

I posted this on another thread about Superman's intellect, and I think it holds valid here:

I'm going to argue that being a genius doesn't mean you can't be naive and also fall for traps. I mean...

...who doesn't know a nerd--really smart, well educated--that has fallen for a bully prank, or has gotten their head dunked in the toilet (or something to that effect)? From what I've seen, intellectuals are many times the butt of jokes and the most gullible people on the planet.

Superman is not clever like Lex, nor does he have the creativity. He's not a detective like Batman; the boy lacks street-smarts. But, he can comprehend book-smarts--theories, languages, mechanics, math--these types of things that require very little bias to understand.

Think about it. Superman is all about truth and justice--he's extremely idealistic. Wouldn't it make sense that his intellectual strength lies in fields that are prone to find absolute truths like math and science?

I just don't like him being good at everything. He doesn't need to be a scientific genius. He should be very inteligent, yes, but not in a scientific way. Just in a general kind of way. Alot of people know the type of guy who isn't good at math or science, but is just very inteligent. Retains information well, can wrap his head around problems easily, reads alot. That kind of inteligence.

 

[Xybalba69]

I also fear for the comics. With Superman Returns doing the backtracking thing, I feel the comics will as well as a reflection of the movie franchise. This was my greatest fear about Singer's vision.

im with you on this one...i already saw the belt \S/ showing in some rough sketches some where...and i'd hate to see Singer's version get into the comics as well...

when that day comes...i'll stop buying Superman comics...

 

[The Leaguer]

I want Superman to get more powerful. I'm tired of him being *****fied. He's a badass motherf***er.

 

[The Question]

He doesn't need to be the single most powerful to be a badass mofo. He should be very powerful, but not the most powerful. Hell, he's even more badass if he's willing to take on threats much larger than him like Darkseid and Neron.

 

[The Leaguer]

I never said I wanted him more powerful than Darkseid or Neron. You're looking at this the wrong way.

Superman should not be depowered so that Darkseid will become a threat again.

Darkseid should be powered up so that he will become a threat again.

The more powerful Superman is, the more interesting he is.

 

[The Question]

Why? I've never seen power levels as what makes a character interesting. Sure, Darkseid should be a bigger threat, but Superman's strengths as a character lie not hin his, well, strength, but his, you know, character. Yes, Superman should be powerful, but he should still be equals with the likes of Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter.

 

[The Leaguer]

The argument that higher powerlevel equates to weaker character is bulls***. One of my favorite aspects of Superman is the whole god-amongst-men angle. Superman has mind-blowing power setting him apart from the group of people he wants so desperately to be a part of. That's interesting as Hell to me.

 

[Harlekin]

Irrelevant. The original creator's intentions always take precedence over minor deviations.

Superman is supposed to have high intelligence. His father was the greatest scientist of a highly advanced civilization.

It's what Jerry Siegel intended.

So you want Batman to go back to handling tommy guns, and Supes limited to strength of a locomotive, speed of a bullet and leaping tall buildings in a bound? I know you're a Pre-Crisis fanboy Kurosawa, but even you've got to admit this is a little ridiculious.

 

[The Question]

The argument that higher powerlevel equates to weaker character is bulls***.

And I didn't make that arguement. All I said was that higher power level doesn't equate to better character.

One of my favorite aspects of Superman is the whole god-amongst-men angle. Superman has mind-blowing power setting him apart from the group of people he wants so desperately to be a part of. That's interesting as Hell to me.

I suppose. But why does he have to be more powerful than he is now. He's already stronger than 99.99% percent of the Earth's population could ever hope to be. I don't mind Superman being really strong. I just don't want him to be planet moving, faster than light traveling Superman of yesteryear.

 

[The Leaguer]

In my opinion, it does equate to a better character, at least in Superman's case. Majestic is a fantastic example. Throughout both his mini-series and his on-going, he displayed incredible feats of strenght, speed and intelligence, and he was one of the most interesting characters being published. The entire time I wished that was the level at which Superman was depicted. Making Superman more powerful opens up far more fun stories.

 

[The Question]

Yes and no. You can do some interesting cosmic stuff, but if he's at planet moving levels, then his rogue's gallary, with the exception of maybe Brainiac, is pretty much useless. I think power levels like that would work much better story wise if he wasn'tr on Earth fighting regular crimes, but instead was battling cosmic threats like gods and demons and stuff like that.

 

[The Leaguer]

Saying his rogues gallary is useless is idiotic. Look at Luthor.

 

[The Question]

I'm not saying they are useless. I'm saying that they would be useless is Superman were put at the planet pushing, faste rthan light flying power levels. There would be no threat from Luthor that Superman couldn't deal with effortlessly. Same with the rest of his rogues, with the exceltion of maybe Bizarro since he's Superman's clone.

 

[The Batman]

Batman could whoop most of his rogues gallery in physical combat....and yet, they still give him a hard time

 

[The Question]

The difference between Batman in The Joker is almost nil compared to the difference between Pre-Crisis level Superman and Luthor. There is literally nothing Luthor could do to threaten Superman or other people to get to Superman if Supes is at those levels. Let's say Superman now moves faster than the speed of light. Radio signals and computer data move slower than the speed of light. So, it's not like Luthor could build a machine to kill someone that reacts to fast for Superman to stop it in time. Luthor builds a giant robot? Superman hurles it into space. Death ray? Superman just stands in it's way. With a Superman that powerful, Luthor is almost useless as a villain. At least The Joker can still take a gun and try to shoot Batman.

 

[The Leaguer]

I don't understand why people say something can't be done in comics, when the opposite is so obviously true.

 

[The Question]

You're right. It can be done. But it wouldn't make much sense. If Superman can push planets around, why couldn't he throw a robot into space?

 

[The Leaguer]

It would make just as much sense as any comic book.