The Dark Knight i will get FA-LAMED for this but i think Robin SHOULD be in film 3!

[trustyside-kick]

Do not make a comment like that unless you are going to say something valid to back it up please.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Robin shouldn't have even been created. He sucks, Batman doesn't need him. In fact, Batman is ten times better without Robin.

Kid, please don't pollute our very intelligent thread with your three-legged goat of a thought. Get out of here, n00b.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Its never been about keeping Dick Grayson safe. if Bruce wanted to keep Dick Grayson safe, he'd get him a good strict foster home to grow up in. It's the Batman who wants an ally, a protege, someone to assist him, another pair of eyes, another pair of arms, another Batman should he die one night, someone strong, who has the motivation, the anger, the drive. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone impressionable, trustworthy, a fast learner, and who will be loyal. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone who shares his pain, shares his motivation, reminds him of himself. Dick Grayson is all these things. That is why there is a Robin.

 

[El Payaso]

Yes, but he still has to act drunk after he's slugged an assload of ginger ale. That's an old Dean Martin trick, by the way. Apple Juice instead of whiskey. Ginger Ale instead of champaigne.

That's why I say the top models are just an image.

He acts drunk, he is not.

He acts womanizer, he is not.

I think if Bruce dates those two models and he doesn't bop them, word is going to get around that Bruce isn't interested in doing the dirty boogie, and that might hurt his image.

Yes, but they have mouths. You think they aren't gonna tell their friends, "we dated Bruce Wayne... yeah he's a total hunk, but when we tried to get him into a manage a trois, he totally shut us down. Did he lose his dick while he was missing for seven years? Is he gay?"

Which would be perfect to disguise his Bat-personality. Bruce is gay, he can't be Batman. Or he is impotent.

That's why he doesn't care about being an a^^hole to all of the people he knows at his birthday.

I disagree. Burton's Batman wasn't doing what he did out of a sense of social responsibility. He was doing it because he was pissed that his mommy and daddy got shot. Keaton's Batman was haunted. i.e., emo.

Bale's Batman started out for those reasons, but made a careful and pointed decision that what he was doing had to be beyond that - he wasn't just a vigilante. He was risking his life not to make himself feel better, but to protect the innocent. I.E., noble, not emo.

Noble is a contradiction for being emo?

Didn't know.

And how would the orphanage prevent Dick from running away and going after the guy who clipped his parents?

And how would Bruce Wayne prevent Dick from running away and killing the guy who clipped his parents?

Orphanage are not 100% secure. nothing in this Earth is. But Bruce isn't either. No Cort in the world thinks a bachelor womanizer is better option than orphanage.

Unless he's raising/teaching the kid how to be a master crime-fighter.

Must be nice to be that naive. You think kids who go to orphanages don't get into crime or drugs? Where are you from, anyway, Pleasantville?

And what citry do you live where people with traumas dresses as bats and raises underage orphans as a better way to reach their goals of revenge instead the regular methods?

I have a question for you now: what state was this TRAVELLING CARNIE a legal resident of? Where did his parents get their mail? You have to realize these guys are on the road 365 days a year. I don't think there's a social services organization that applies to gypsy children. Nobody's coming to take little Dickie Grayson to an orphanage.

After their parent's killing I'd say Dick would stop forcedly to wander through the country.

Dick envisions life that way before he ever meets Bruce. The damage was done to Dick when he saw his parents get killed. You don't think that has an effect on a kid? You think he's just gonna forget about it?

Please, read the thread. I'm not gonna post examples for the third time.

Ahh, there's Emo Batman. Batman's not doomed or eternally tied to revenge. Batman made a choice to fight injustice and protect the innocent. Batman is doing a noble thing. Dick has the ability to make the same choice. While legally Dick is too young to make that choice, realistically speaking, he has a functioning brain and he makes that choice outside of what is legal or illegal.

You answered perfectly yourself.

Doesn't apply to gypsies. Again.

Kid in an orphanage = not gypsy.

What is this "special care" you speak of that is going to keep a girl from having sex for money? Where's the switch that magically turns ho's into good girls? And talk is cheap. 99% of the time it's also useless. Witness this discussion going around and around despite the fact that I am clearly right.

I am right. You see? Saying that doesn't make you or me right.

You see any society entrusting kids under single playboys care?

The scenario you originally presented had it that she already was determined to be a ****e. A 14 year old girl doesn't need any adult encouragement to become a ****e, she can just go out and BE a ****e. There's no classes you have to take or anything.

She need someone that prevents that.

No, I think the guy who killed the Flying Graysons corrupted Dick. Bruce teaches Dick the noble and efficient way to do what he wants to do, instead of getting dead.

Bruce takes advantage of Dick's unstable situation. 'Ok, Dick, you want revenge? you want to find your parent's murderers? Join me.' Not something you do/say to a 13 y.o. boy.

I never said it was morally better. But it is SAFER to be an expensive ****e than a cheap one. A cheap ****e gets beaten and gets diseases and has to deal with pimps and low-class johns. An expensive ****e has a madam and works in the relative safety of a ****ehouse instead of, say, a rund-down streetcorner in the middle of no-man's land.

You're saying safer = good?

If I rape a woman using a condom to protect her then it's better in some way?

If a person is determined to ruin their life, there's often little you can do to stop them. However, sometimes you can provide them with a less dangerous road. Which is morally better than leaving them to rot.

Even if it's too little to do, it must be done.

The law and reality are often very different. Legally, a child is not old enough to make his or her own decisions. In reality, they usually do it anyway.

No excuse for encouraging them.

That's why it's important to teach kids about right and wrong from a young age.

And according to Bruce using a mask and deprive yourself of a healthy life is the right thing to do. If he wants to do that himself, it's fine. If he wants to take an immature child and teach him under that ideas, then he's being immoral and corrupter, no matter how many corrupters Dick have had before Bruce.

You can't be with them every moment and they have to make decisions for themselves when they're at school or out with friends. They have to make life-changing decisions the first time somebody offers them a toke. Are you going to say a child has no legal or ethical stature to decide whether or not to take that toke? I can see that conversation:

"Here, take a hit."
"Hold on, I gotta call my Mom and find out if it's okay."

Remember that Dick is a carnie who grew up in the instrinsically unwholesome environment of a travelling circus. Remember that he worked WITHOUT A NET, on a TRAPEZE, as a CHILD. Risking his life is something he has done every day since he's been physically capable of performing. But he's been TRAINED to know what to do, so he doesn't have to be out there hanging from the trapeze going, "Mom, should I wait until the full extension to let go, or should I let go now? Will I die if I hit the floor?"

Kids may not be adults, but they aren't morons, and their lives are usually complicated. You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that it's the other way around.

Then let Dick train himself just as Bruce did.

If he's so determined and has maturity enough, let him do the trick witjout any adult plating ideas in his mind.

 

[trustyside-kick]

And what citry do you live where people with traumas dresses as bats and raises underage orphans as a better way to reach their goals of revenge instead the regular methods?

How can you be a Batman fan and try to use that against him for this arguement?

 

[El Payaso]

What good comes of teaching a young angry kid with murderous rage how to to keep that rage in check and how to stop the evil that happened to him from happening to others? Lots.

Maybe in Comicland or Pleasantville.

That's why there are no lonely vigilantes in animal costume eveywhere.

 

[El Payaso]

Did you read my post before that? I did not want to edit it and put what you just replied to in it cause it was after posting it and I noticed a trend of quick replies going on.

How can you say that training Dick was worse then Dick trying to avenge his parents on his on with rage and no training.

If it was Dick's grandparents the ones killed, do you think Dick's parents would have encouraged him to find the criminals and fight crime in a disguise?

 

[trustyside-kick]

If it was Dick's grandparents the ones killed, do you think Dick's parents would have encouraged him to find the criminals and fight crime in a disguise?

No but you see that is totally different. When you try to comeback to use with what you seem to think as a good comeback you are only trying to change things that you think will help your view. That example is completely invalid.

I am not sure if I want to argue with you anymore. Not saying you win but your examples are just...not good/not valid/not worth my time arguing.

Come back with a good comeback not replying to this reply I made since I was not proving anything that had to do with the arguement about Robin being in the movie and then most likely I will start arguing with you about this.

 

[El Payaso]

Its never been about keeping Dick Grayson safe. if Bruce wanted to keep Dick Grayson safe, he'd get him a good strict foster home to grow up in. It's the Batman who wants an ally, a protege, someone to assist him, another pair of eyes, another pair of arms, another Batman should he die one night, someone strong, who has the motivation, the anger, the drive. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone impressionable, trustworthy, a fast learner, and who will be loyal. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone who shares his pain, shares his motivation, reminds him of himself. Dick Grayson is all these things. That is why there is a Robin.

Exactly. batman sees an ally and a herit for his cause and mission, a good learner eager to learn out of rage, so he totally ignores he's a underage kid and just focus on how good it is for himself to train the boy.

 

[El Payaso]

No but you see that is totally different. When you try to comeback to use with what you seem to think as a good comeback you are only trying to change things that you think will help your view. That example is completely invalid.

I am not sure if I want to argue with you anymore. Not saying you win but your examples are just...not good/not valid/not worth my time arguing.

Come back with a good comeback not replying to this reply I made since I was not proving anything that had to do with the arguement about Robin being in the movie and then most likely I will start arguing with you about this.

Any analysis is good enough for you to not answer.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Okay for one, I do not agree with Ronny Shade saying Batman was "looking for an ally, an heir" and all that crap. Dark Victory is the origin of Robin and why Bruce did what he did and that is the reason for it. I do not want to scan it and show...

 

[Digital_Ashes]

Batman: year one - origin of batman
batman: long halloween - origin of two face
batman: dark victory - origin of robin.

if they follow the comics.

he will be in number three.

 

[trustyside-kick]

It will not happen like that though because Goyer said that in the beginning of the third film or sometime close to the begin will be the trial and Joker will then splash the acid onto Harvey's face.

Unless they are trying to trick us again with phony information. Like how they made the phony script "Intimidation Game".

 

[Ronny Shade]

Okay for one, I do not agree with Ronny Shade saying Batman was "looking for an ally, an heir" and all that crap. Dark Victory is the origin of Robin and why Bruce did what he did and that is the reason for it. I do not want to scan it and show...

Its next on my list to read. Jeph Loeb usually knows what he's talking about. Maybe I'll change my mind.

 

[Nightwing 52]

Robin shouldn't have even been created. He sucks, Batman doesn't need him. In fact, Batman is ten times better without Robin.

Read some of the current or old comics, and I gurantee you'll take back your statemant. Don't come here posting something that irrelevant.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

That's why I say the top models are just an image.

He acts drunk, he is not.

He acts womanizer, he is not.

But it's not a convincing act if there isn't any play.

Which would be perfect to disguise his Bat-personality. Bruce is gay, he can't be Batman. Or he is impotent.

Being gay wouldn't preclude him being Batman. Not all gay people are poofties. The impotence argument could work, though, but honestly... why would I straight guy NOT boink those models?

That's why he doesn't care about being an a^^hole to all of the people he knows at his birthday.

I agree. I think we're just disagreeing over what extent he has to go to with the ladies in order to successfully create the image he wants. And, perhaps, over what, exactly, that image is.

Noble is a contradiction for being emo?

Didn't know.

In my experience, emo people are too absorbed with wallowing in their own manufactured misery to bother doing anything to help another person.

Orphanage are not 100% secure. nothing in this Earth is. But Bruce isn't either. No Cort in the world thinks a bachelor womanizer is better option than orphanage.

I agree, but you still haven't answered me as to how in the world Dick Grayson would wind up in an orphanage?

And what citry do you live where people with traumas dresses as bats and raises underage orphans as a better way to reach their goals of revenge instead the regular methods?

Okay, if you want to use that argument, let me ask you - since Batman's world is clearly not 100% realistic... why would Bruce not be able to adopt Dick?

After their parent's killing I'd say Dick would stop forcedly to wander through the country.

I concur. And he would probably die in a streetfight.

Please, read the thread. I'm not gonna post examples for the third time.

You're not giving any examples. You're like a politician who ways "we need to eliminate poverty" but who never says HOW to eliminate poverty, because he knows full well it can't be done, he just wants to appear righteous.

You answered perfectly yourself.

Cute. You conveniently ignored most of what I said. Remember, just because he isn't LEGALLY old enough to make the decision, doesn't mean he isn't going to do it anyway. It's not legal for Batman to go out and fight crime on his own, but he does it anyway. Murder isn't legal but a lot of people commit murders. Just because something isn't legal, doesn't mean it doesn't HAPPEN.

Kid in an orphanage = not gypsy.

Yes, and a kid whose parents are alive isn't an oprhan.

What you don't seem to get is that Dick was a gypsy before his parents got killed. He was a carnie. SOCIAL SERVICES IS NOT COMING FOR HIM. How does he get into this "orphanage" you speak of as being the magical solution for all of his problems?

I am right. You see? Saying that doesn't make you or me right.

That's true. You have to actually BE right for that statement to be true. Like me. I happen to be right, not because I say so, but because I am.

You see any society entrusting kids under single playboys care?

I don't think Bruce legally adopts Dick. Dick doesn't legally exist. He's a GYPSY.

She need someone that prevents that.

I agree. But the thing about PREVENTATIVE measures is that they have to happen BEFORE the problem. If she's already contemplating being a ****e, it's too late for preventative measures to be effective.

Bruce takes advantage of Dick's unstable situation. 'Ok, Dick, you want revenge? you want to find your parent's murderers? Join me.' Not something you do/say to a 13 y.o. boy.

You might. It would depend on who you were, who the boy was, and what the specific details of the situation were.

You're saying safer = good?

No, I'm saying safer is better than less safe.

If I rape a woman using a condom to protect her then it's better in some way?

By about .0000002%, maybe. At least she won't get pregnant with a child she doesn't want. The rape is still horribly wrong, but at least she isn't going to be forced with the decision of having a baby she doesn't want, or getting an abortion, and at least she won't have any funky STD's you may be carrying. So yes, it's better by some tiny percentage. Not good by any stretch, but slightly less bad.

Even if it's too little to do, it must be done.

So if something is useless, it's still worth doing?

No excuse for encouraging them.

If you're ever a parent, you're going to raise *****es.

And according to Bruce using a mask and deprive yourself of a healthy life is the right thing to do. If he wants to do that himself, it's fine. If he wants to take an immature child and teach him under that ideas, then he's being immoral and corrupter, no matter how many corrupters Dick have had before Bruce.

Who says Bruce is depriving himself of a healthy life? Has it ever occurred to you that Bruce is NOT CAPABLE of living a normal life? Has it ever occurred to you that Bruce does what he does because it is the only way he can take the damage that has been done to him, and turn it to a good cause?

Then let Dick train himself just as Bruce did.

Bruce didn't train himself. He had mentors. Lots and lots of mentors.

If he's so determined and has maturity enough, let him do the trick witjout any adult plating ideas in his mind.

Bruce doesn't plant any ideas in Dick's mind.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Its next on my list to read. Jeph Loeb usually knows what he's talking about. Maybe I'll change my mind.

Knows what he is talking about? Damn skippy he does. His book with the Robin origin in it is in continuity. So it is the Robin origin story. And in that Bruce in his minds goes over why he is doing this; taking Robin in and training him. It is brief but it does happen.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Bruce takes advantage of Dick's unstable situation. 'Ok, Dick, you want revenge? you want to find your parent's murderers? Join me.' Not something you do/say to a 13 y.o. boy.

Wow have you seriously read Dark Victory?

- Dick is 8 or 9 years old. Bruce talks about how he is just about the same age when his parents were killed.
- Batman takes him in out of charity.
- Bruce does not take advantage of Dick's unstable situation. After Dick on his own goes back to the circus to try to get some answers and fights some thugs and gets beaten and Batman rescues him they talk. This is where he reveals his identity. He asks Dick if he wants to know who killed his parents and Dick says yes. He then says he cannot let him go out there again without training.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Knows what he is talking about? Damn skippy he does. His book with the Robin origin in it is in continuity. So it is the Robin origin story. And in that Bruce in his minds goes over why he is doing this; taking Robin in and training him. It is brief but it does happen.

What about Year 3?

 

[Ronny Shade]

Knows what he is talking about? Damn skippy he does. His book with the Robin origin in it is in continuity. So it is the Robin origin story. And in that Bruce in his minds goes over why he is doing this; taking Robin in and training him. It is brief but it does happen.

Yes, but a lot of things happened in continuity that we'd all like to forget about.

 

[trustyside-kick]

What about Year 3?

Not in continuity. There for does not mean squat.

Yes, but a lot of things happened in continuity that we'd all like to forget about.

That is not how it works. I cannot go "Oh well...I did not like Joker shooting Barbara Gordon and paralyzing her preventing her from continuing to be Batgirl...so I will just ignore that."

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Not in continuity. There for does not mean squat.

Why is Year 3 not in continuity? It's Year 3! Dark Victory's just some GN with ugly artwork written by an overrated "kitchen-sink" author...?

 

[trustyside-kick]

Why is Year 3 not in continuity? It's Year 3! Dark Victory's just some GN with ugly artwork written by an overrated "kitchen-sink" author...?

No......Year 3 is not...just like Year 2 is not. Year Two was basically replaced with The Long Halloween and Year 3 by Dark Victory.

And Jeph Loeb is not overrated. Tim Sale's drawings are awesome; give a different feel to each character than most artists.

 

[El Payaso]

Wow have you seriously read Dark Victory?

- Dick is 8 or 9 years old. Bruce talks about how he is just about the same age when his parents were killed.
- Batman takes him in out of charity.
- Bruce does not take advantage of Dick's unstable situation. After Dick on his own goes back to the circus to try to get some answers and fights some thugs and gets beaten and Batman rescues him they talk. This is where he reveals his identity. He asks Dick if he wants to know who killed his parents and Dick says yes. He then says he cannot let him go out there again without training.

Corruptomondo.

How many paedophiles can tell the same story. "Officer, that 8 y.o. boy was in the charity, I saved him! And yes, he consented in coming home when I asked him if he wanna play with giant colorful toys and have a daddy again. Think about it, no one else was going to offer him that chance. I saved him!"

 

[trustyside-kick]

I am guessing you are one of the people not enjoying the One Year Later Batman comic since they are using Robin more often. Gives it more of a BTAS feel that is awesome.