if you can go back in time and change something with technology

[redhawk23]

Lets go back in time and stop Emperor Constantine from legitimizing the early Christian Church. We can avoid the dark ages and push our civilization ahead 1000 years. Or if that is too much we could stop the burning of the library at Alexandria.

Let's not act as if western culture represents all of civilization.

 

[KalMart]

Let's not act as if western culture represents all of civilization.

Just the civilized parts.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Let's not act as if western culture represents all of civilization.

Let's also not pretend the Catholic Church was responsible for Europe entering the "Dark" Ages. They were the only people documenting and writing new books and established universities (Oxbridge, Paris etc) along with giving people limited access to furthering medicine. But without much recorded history, and thinking they already knew best, they just didn't allow any further developments, much like the Roman Empire that preceded it who thought the Greeks had already perfected medicine with the Four Humours/Four Opposites.

It's a popular myth but, it's just that, a myth.

 

[Marvolo]

Let's not act as if western culture represents all of civilization.

I debated saying Western Culture instead of just culture and bringing up the fall of the Golden Age in the middle east in the 1100s, but I figured if Christianity was never legitamized and we never had the dark ages it might have positively influenced trade and the Golden Age of Enlightenment in te Middle East may never have collapsed the way it did.

Don't worry, I'm on top of this $h!t.

Let's also not pretend the Catholic Church was responsible for Europe entering the "Dark" Ages. They were the only people documenting and writing new books and established universities (Oxbridge, Paris etc) along with giving people limited access to furthering medicine. But without much recorded history, and thinking they already knew best, they just didn't allow any further developments, much like the Roman Empire that preceded it who thought the Greeks had already perfected medicine with the Four Humours/Four Opposites.

It's a popular myth but, it's just that, a myth.

I hope you are joking.

St. Augustine

'There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn.'

And let's not forget the Inquisition and those excommunicated and burned at the stake for science. And let's not forget the wars the church had a direct hand in orchestrating. The genocides commited in the Crusades.

The only reason the church was soaking up and recording info was to supress it and keep it from the people so it could maintain a powerhold.

 

[BestGirl]

I'll enjoy watching everyone starve to death? We're currently overpopulated now, introducing a polio vaccine even twenty years before it was discovered would make that problem even worse. If you have access to time travel and you want to do good things, you need to look at things at a far larger scale than the individual.

That's why you teach people how to make condoms when you introduce modern medicine.

 

[BestGirl]

I debated saying Western Culture instead of just culture and bringing up the fall of the Golden Age in the middle east in the 1100s, but I figured if Christianity was never legitamized and we never had the dark ages it might have positively influenced trade and the Golden Age of Enlightenment in te Middle East may never have collapsed the way it did.

Don't worry, I'm on top of tyhis $h!t.

Christianity didn't cause the Dark Ages. Those years were a product of the collapse of Roman civilization.

 

[Marvolo]

Christianity didn't cause the Dark Ages. Those years were a product of the collapse of Roman civilization.

Didn't say it caused the Dark Ages.

You are right, tho, we would need to go further back and influence the Roman Empire. It was such a doimino effect that it would likely be impossible. It was just hypothetical talk. I care more about the burning of the Library of Alexandria. That in itself has crippled our knowledge of human history. Big lover of history, and I can only imagine what was lost in that Library.

Something else with the church that would be of a more positive influence would be to go back and find a way to stop the child molestations. I was watching that documentary Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God, and supposedly there are church documents recording child molestation going back to the 4th century.

 

[BestGirl]

Didn't say it caused the Dark Ages. It prolonged the Dark Ages.

If by Dark Ages you mean Early Middle Ages, then they came to an end when urban living began to reappear about the year 1000 CE.

 

[Marvolo]

If by Dark Ages you mean Early Middle Ages, then they came to an end when urban living began to reappear about the year 1000 CE.

Yes, that time period we would do well to avoid, but I'm also speaking of the whole time period from the fall of the Roman Empire to the Renaissance. I guess I should have said the majority of the Middle Ages. Basically that vaccum of time where men were more worried about their souls than the physical world. When the church had a monopoly on daily life and literacy. I'll go back and fix that.

You know I'm of two minds, on the one hand the church paraded around Europe destroying useless pagan rituals and pagan beliefs. That could be argued as a good thing. On the other hand, they destroyed a lot of cultural history in the process, and replaced a bunch of pagan beliefs with one huge state belief. Either way, the people are tied up in time consuming pointless ritual and worry, and history and progress suffers.

 

[KalMart]

Yes, that time period we would do well to avoid, but I'm also speaking of the whole time period from the fall of the Roman Empire to the Renaissance. I guess I should have said the majority of the Middle Ages. Basically that vaccum of time where men were more worried about their souls than the physical world. When the church had a monopoly on daily life and literacy. I'll go back and fix that.

You know I'm of two minds, on the one hand the church paraded around Europe destroying useless pagan rituals and pagan beliefs. That could be argued as a good thing. On the other hand, they destroyed a lot of cultural history in the process, and replaced a bunch of pagan beliefs with one huge state belief. Either way, the people are tied up in time consuming pointless ritual and worry, and history and progress suffers.

How? Considering the general mentality of the time, you'd probably be doing little more than selling a religion of your own to some extent. One could go back and push for free thinking...but who could really handle that back then? You'd be labeled a witch, yo?

 

[BestGirl]

Yes, that time period we would do well to avoid, but I'm also speaking of the whole time period from the fall of the Roman Empire to the Renaissance. I guess I should have said the majority of the Middle Ages. Basically that vaccum of time where men were more worried about their souls than the physical world. When the church had a monopoly on daily life and literacy. I'll go back and fix that.

You know I'm of two minds, on the one hand the church paraded around Europe destroying useless pagan rituals and pagan beliefs. That could be argued as a good thing. On the other hand, they destroyed a lot of cultural history in the process, and replaced a bunch of pagan beliefs with one huge state belief. Either way, the people are tied up in time consuming pointless ritual and worry, and history and progress suffers.

Yeah, the Church was definitely annoying during the Middle Ages, but I think it was more poverty, fragmented governments, and isolation that prevented progress on the technological front. The Renaissance was no less religious than the Middle Ages, to tell the truth, but internal peace, colonization, and commerce brought money into previously poor Europe, which in turn brought about many intellectual and societal changes.

 

[Marvolo]

How? Considering the general mentality of the time, you'd probably be doing little more than selling a religion of your own to some extent. One could go back and push for free thinking...but who could really handle that back then? You'd be labeled a witch, yo?

Yeah, the Church was definitely annoying during the Middle Ages, but I think it was more poverty, fragmented governments, and isolation that prevented progress on the technological front. The Renaissance was no less religious than the Middle Ages, to tell the truth, but internal peace, colonization, and commerce brought money into previously poor Europe, which in turn brought about many intellectual and societal changes.

Yes, perhaps, I was unfair to act as if it was all the Church's fault. It wasn't, and I know that. But damn if I don't hate the way the church tried to suppress scientific advancement and the BS hypocricy within the Church. Makes me want to punch a pope.

 

[KalMart]

Yes, perhaps, I was unfair to act as if it was all the Church's fault. It wasn't, and I know that. But damn if I don't hate the way the church tried to suppress scientific advancement and the BS hypocricy within the Church. Makes me want to punch a pope.

Oh I know, I'm talking more about like, say, when people say they'd go back and kill Hitler...when the real problem were the social issues that bore and nurtured Nazism.

Imagine trying to talk about rationality, science, free thinking etc. in a society where education in the commonfolk was about as rare as winning the lottery? Imagine approaching those in authority (like...the church!) and telling them that the universe is actually many billions of years old and as big as it is, and such...you'd probably be treated just like those who first proposed the ideas to begin with...like you were crazy, evil, or all of the above. Kinda' reinforces just how brave and amazing those pioneers of science and free thought were in those actual days.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I hope you are joking.

St. Augustine



And let's not forget the Inquisition and those excommunicated and burned at the stake for science. And let's not forget the wars the church had a direct hand in orchestrating. The genocides commited in the Crusades.

The only reason the church was soaking up and recording info was to supress it and keep it from the people so it could maintain a powerhold.

I'm not saying the Church was benevolent, far from it, it's a cruel capricious institute that was responsible for the deaths of thousands. I'm just saying it's because of the Church there was no real "Dark" Age, science still progressed, slowly. As much of the previous knowledge of Classical antiquity was preserved. The Church founded further education, which allowed for advancements (albeit none as major as what would come) in medicine, and let's also not forget, this biggest advancements in science usually come through war. The Crusades were bad, yes, but as with all wars, progress came in the form of Arabic numerals to Europe, as well as interaction directly with Muslim ideas of medicine which had been out of contact for a couple centuries because of the Byzantine Empire in between. Those who had a curious mind were to continue to be curious no matter what, they were just lucky that the Church preserved enough of Roman civilisation to educate them and let them provide modest advancements, until the Renaissance (also only possible because of the Church).

Instead of wishing the Church did nothing in the collapse of the Roman Empire (which would be undoubtedly worse), you should wish they shared the knowledge they preserved.

 

[Marvolo]

I'm not saying the Church was benevolent, far from it, it's a cruel capricious institute that was responsible for the deaths of thousands. I'm just saying it's because of the Church there was no real "Dark" Age, science still progressed, slowly. As much of the previous knowledge of Classical antiquity was preserved. The Church founded further education, which allowed for advancements (albeit none as major as what would come) in medicine, and let's also not forget, this biggest advancements in science usually come through war. The Crusades were bad, yes, but as with all wars, progress came in the form of Arabic numerals to Europe, as well as interaction directly with Muslim ideas of medicine which had been out of contact for a couple centuries because of the Byzantine Empire in between. Those who had a curious mind were to continue to be curious no matter what, they were just lucky that the Church preserved enough of Roman civilisation to educate them and let them provide modest advancements, until the Renaissance (also only possible because of the Church).

Instead of wishing the Church did nothing in the collapse of the Roman Empire (which would be undoubtedly worse), you should wish they shared the knowledge they preserved.

But that is the problem the Church didn't share the knowledge. Which is my main gripe. Hording and suppression of men and knowledge. And I'm not so sure the bennefits gained by the Church's actions entirely outweigh the bad. Knowledge would have still funneled out of the Middle East without the church's actions. Slower at first no doubt. Its all hypothetical, and I really can't say what would have happened one way or the other. But the way the church used the situation to gain a foothold and enslave Europe to their God is a big con against the pros in my book.

Europe was no cake walk prior to the church, but their "one and only god" mentality was destructive. The Roman Empire tied gods up in their daily lives, but it wasn't like the way the church did it. The Roman's knew the god's existed whether you liked it or not. For them it was just a fact. You did your daily duty and moved on. Different places had their own gods and those gods had their own people. The hatred and jealousy wasn't as prevelant. Then when the Roman Empire converted and mandated the Christian Religion for everyone the Chruch came in with this "No gods before our God" and spread a wildfire mentality that continues in sects of the Chistian religion to this day.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

It was the Black Death that brought about the Renaissance. A huge number of people died freeing up food and other resources. The fact that they were mostly of the poor and uneducated classes may have contributed significantly as well since the remaining people would have been better educated on the average.

 

[KalMart]

Shakespeare created the renaissance, and Mozart provided the soundtrack.

 

[Darthphere]

forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=365875

 

[SuperFerret]

That's why you teach people how to make condoms when you introduce modern medicine.

Condoms aren't 100%, and they help prevent disease. Not a substitute to good ol' fashioned death.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It was the Black Death that brought about the Renaissance. A huge number of people died freeing up food and other resources. The fact that they were mostly of the poor and uneducated classes may have contributed significantly as well since the remaining people would have been better educated on the average.

That's sadly not untrue. In part, anyway. There were other factors.

 

[KalMart]

Like condoms.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Like condoms.

They don't tell you that at the Renaissance fair.

 

[KalMart]

I wondeer if hundreds of years from now...they'll have like an "80's Fair".

 

[Spidey-Bat]

To all the "kill Hitler" posts, this is really all you have to do.

Give the French army radio (basically just long-range walkie-talkies) in the Franco-Prussian War. They already had the superior army that should have defeated the Prussians. The ability to communicate and coordinate between troops is immensely underrated. You can take just about any conflict, give the losing side this advantage and odds are they will win in a lot of cases. In a nutshell, France wins, no united German state. No German Empire, no colonization that encroaches on other empires, no German navy that threatens Britain, not enough strength to make Germany think it can wage a two-front war against France and Russia. Many of the causes to World War I don't happen, so there won't be a massive, destructive war as it happened. So Hitler is no longer the same person neither is the situation that enabled him to rise to power.

 

[ComicChick]

i'd take the tuberculosis and polio vaccines way back to before they were commonplace. save a lot more people