If you think about it logically, God can't exist.

[InsaneMembrane]

discussion isn't inherently unproductive about matters like this. there certainly can be unproductive discussion about such matters tho.

I'm going to look at this "atheist-style"

Give me proof of a time where these threads have been productive on the Hype till then I'm going believe that these threads are never productive and that people's minds are never changed either way and we end up with name-calling in the end.

 

[Flame on!]

we could.

But I am still an atheist. That is one thing that will NEVER change

So if God arrived, said he was God and catagorically proved it, you would still be an atheist?

Rem.

 

[Kessel Day]

people will believe as they wish even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

after all, the pharisees knew about Jesus' miracles, yet they rejected him because it was not to their personal advantage to believe that he was sent by God.

 

[Kessel Day]

If religion is all about beilief without proof

Then my atheism is disbelief due to no proof giving

faith is not based on nothing. that would be "credulity".

for instance, if a person researched the prophesies given in the Bible and found them to be evidence of a Higher Being, that would be evidence, to him, that there is a God.

orfor someone who appreciates the order and beauty in nature or the complexity of the human brain, that may be evidence to that person that life is no accident, that it had to be caused by a Planner.

 

[bluejake01]

Is it the manager's fault if an employee wants to take over his position as manager? Lucifer had free will to follow God or not, but he became so proud that he wanted to be God. God is not to blame for this. How can you judge God? You don't even believe in him. Are you more wise than the one who created the universe?

Who the hell are you to tell me I don't believe in god? I don't believe that YOUR god is the only incarnation of the divine. Yahweh Created Lucifer knowing EVERY act he would ever commit, and created him anyway. In doing so, Yahweh demonstrates a place for Lucifer in his design...making him responsible for Lucifer's existence, and actions. If yahweh is the reason for EVERYTHING, he must then be responsible for EVERYTHING.

 

[bluejake01]

the logic in this thread disturbs me. logic obviously isn't being taught well enough.

Forgetting the obvious logic of Pascal's Wager, there are many other well thought out, logical reasons for believing in the divine. It is growingly accepted theory that belief in "god" has certain advantages in the preservation and continuation of the species. So much so that they have found genetic triggers that are passed on through breeding.

Besides all of that, faith is only illogical when it causes a person to completely abandon reason and cause themselves, or someone else harm.

 

[bluejake01]

faith is not based on nothing. that would be "credulity".

for instance, if a person researched the prophesies given in the Bible and found them to be evidence of a Higher Being, that would be evidence, to him, that there is a God.

orfor someone who appreciates the order and beauty in nature or the complexity of the human brain, that may be evidence to that person that life is no accident, that it had to be caused by a Planner.

Just when I forget why you rock...here you come, rocking my socks off again.

 

[Kessel Day]

Who the hell are you to tell me I don't believe in god? I don't believe that YOUR god is the only incarnation of the divine. Yahweh Created Lucifer knowing EVERY act he would ever commit, and created him anyway. In doing so, Yahweh demonstrates a place for Lucifer in his design...making him responsible for Lucifer's existence, and actions. If yahweh is the reason for EVERYTHING, he must then be responsible for EVERYTHING.

why do you believe that God KNEW that satan (or Adam & Eve) would sin?

 

[Kessel Day]

Just when I forget why you rock...here you come, rocking my socks off again.

hullo, bj. nice to see you again, too. you are my favorite pagan ya know.

 

[bluejake01]

why do you believe that God KNEW that satan (or Adam & Eve) would sin?

Yahweh is the Alpha and Omega...he KNOWS everything before it happens, according to popular Christian and Jewish mythology. If you have knowledge of the outcome of an action, and continue that action, you must therefore be responsible for that outcome. The only logic in such an action must be that there is some purpose served that makes what would appear to be an undesireable outcome, "worth" it.

 

[Danalys]

Forgetting the obvious logic of Pascal's Wager, there are many other well thought out, logical reasons for believing in the divine. It is growingly accepted theory that belief in "god" has certain advantages in the preservation and continuation of the species. So much so that they have found genetic triggers that are passed on through breeding.

Besides all of that, faith is only illogical when it causes a person to completely abandon reason and cause themselves, or someone else harm.

pascals wager is logical if you believe his assumptions of what a god would want. which i don't. or couldn't be sure of so it fails.

belief in god may give you an advantage. you wouldn't have to spend time questioning your own morality for one. and many of the rules involve ways to out breed your competition. since there's an after life in their view the world doen't matter so much and can be bent to your whim for your personal benefit. never mind the costs for others since they are godless heavens. certainly those could be benefits for the individual in question. without them even realising them. other religions have other benefits. with the idea of reincarnation i'd assume hindus would be more environmentely concious.

 

[whitecrawler-->]

i have just written lemmie see....four essays in my AS philosophy exam on proof for an against God, believing in God is not like believing in santa clause. Arguments give many reasons for why god could exist. The ontological argument-"God is that than which nothing greater can be concieved, but you are also something greater than can be concieved. Indeed, since it is possible to be concieved to be something of this kind, if you are not this very thing, something can be concieved greater than you, which cannot be done", St Anselm, Proslogion 2. He exists in the mind as each and every person can come up with some way to describe him so each of us has grasped the concept of god whether we believe or not. God is necessary (apparently) as something that can be thought not to exist would be inferior to that wich cannot exist altogether, thus Anselm has made a demonstration though ok it' not a great one. Descartes said that god must exist because existance is a predicate of a perfect being, therefore he has to exist to avoid being self-contradictory. To say God has no predicate of existance is like saying you can have a triangle with no sides-it's illogical.
Cosmological argument-look at everything around you, everything including you. Everything was caused nothing simply comes into existence onit's own accord.Everything has come into existence because something caused them to. the causes can go back to the beginning of time, time began with the creation of the universe, there must have been something to cause the universe, it would have to have necessary existence to cause such a contingent universe. God has to have necessary existence and so is the first cause. Aquinus had a ton to say on this.
Teleological argument
the universe shows purpose an regularitym the complexity of it shows design, design implies a designer i.e God or some other supreme being. Paley had a bash at this one likening the world to a watch, if you're not a skilled watchmaker and you put a watch together it probably won't work-you are not a watch designer or maker. Give it to its designer they'll have it done in no time. So in order the regularity an purpose of the universe to take place a skilled overseer must have put it together that way.
There's the moral argument about how each of us strives to goodness to achieve the summum bonum or greatest good. the greatest good must be a fair good an paradise that we achieve when we have fullfilled our moral duty through kant's catagorical Imperitive thus giving the idea of heaven. heaven is a christian concept so the existence of god is a presupposed concept. that argument is actually alot more complicated!
Good ol religious experience so mental, spiritual and paranormal experiences where a supreme being is shown or noticed or knowledge of one is given. Lotsa people have them and suddenly believe that this supreme good or being must be God (or a higher being)
there's also your basic paranormal stigmata, statues bleeding or crying and the like.
I myself don't believe in God but to say it is impossible for him to exist is plain daft. There are huge amounts of evidence for and against an more often that not the for weighs out the against.

 

[wolfsfang]

Everything on this thread is basically a moot point because it can't be proven one way or the other and you are wrong if you say it can.

 

[Danalys]

I'm going to look at this "atheist-style"

Give me proof of a time where these threads have been productive on the Hype till then I'm going believe that these threads are never productive and that people's minds are never changed either way and we end up with name-calling in the end.

i myself have learnt more about religious dogma and the various ways it can be interpreted. that is proof if you take me at my word. altho i don't see how i could have thought of that answer if it wasn't the truth. and hopefully people can actually learn not to use certain illogical arguements. there's always more people who can learn. so the threads continue.

sheesh i just noticed whitecrawler spewing arguements that were debunked hundreds of years ago.

 

[wolfsfang]

We believe that God exists because something had to create such an advanced thing as life. But nature is full of accidental perfection, take snowflakes for example, their geometric patterns are each perfectly hexagonal and they are all just natural parts of nature.

Life is simply a fluke, a chance event that occured because our planet met certain criteria.

 

[bluejake01]

pascals wager is logical if you believe his assumptions of what a god would want. which i don't. or couldn't be sure of so it fails.

belief in god may give you an advantage. you wouldn't have to spend time questioning your own morality for one. and many of the rules involve ways to out breed your competition. since there's an after life in their view the world doen't matter so much and can be bent to your whim for your personal benefit. never mind the costs for others since they are godless heavens. certainly those could be benefits for the individual in question. without them even realising them. other religions have other benefits. with the idea of reincarnation i'd assume hindus would be more environmentely concious.

What rules? The rules of a certain religion? I was speaking of all faiths...not just one.

 

[wolfsfang]

So if God arrived, said he was God and catagorically proved it, you would still be an atheist?

Rem.

Yes.

 

[Danalys]

What rules? The rules of a certain religion? I was speaking of all faiths...not just one.

it is the rules or guidance of the religion that people have faith in that give them the advantage as i see it. some times at others expense. it is the feeling of being connected to something larger when you can not see far. it is the idea that even with your limitations this is the way things are ment to be. all those benefit people. do the ends justify the means. not to someone like me who holds intellectual honesty so highly in regard.

 

[wolfsfang]

If there is a God that would mean I would have to follow his laws, his commandments and do whatever he says or else he would punish me and send me to hell for all eternity.

I choose not to believe in God cuz I prefer haiving free will which even tho he was supposed to have giving us all, by giving us rules to obey goes against that.

Besides if God was all loving why did he send his son to save us at a time when nothing much was going on, but now when their is true evil in the world and the possiblity of global extinction due to atomic bombs and germ warfare, does he leave us on our own.

Jesus' attitude of helping those who helps themselves is a dull one, cuz if you could help yourself you wouldn't have asked for his help in the first place.

So basically if God does exist, I just don't care. I've done very well without his help so far and I shall continue to do so.

 

[bluejake01]

it is the rules or guidance of the religion that people have faith in that give them the advantage as i see it. some times at others expense.

Belief in something greater when you have nothing left and would otherwise be hopeless, keeps you from despair. Despair can be fatal.

A feeling of being connected to the world by something greater than yourself gives you a larger capacity for compassion and understanding.

Faith has been shown to make one feel "good". The better a person feels about themselves and their place in exsitence, the better they will perform, in life, love and career.

 

[bluejake01]

Jesus' attitude of helping those who helps themselves is a dull one, cuz if you could help yourself you wouldn't have asked for his help in the first place.

This is a prgmatic belief...not a dull one. When a person has something handed to them, they place no value on it. It's like wlefare...give someone a hand up...not a hand out. Help someone better themselves, don't just give them what they want.

 

[Danalys]

there's a value in giving if you give in reward for attempting to improve. it's like giving someone a fish if they are working on creating their own fishing rod and learning to fish for themselves. the move to action should be rewarded intially. next patience is learnt.

 

[JLBats]

discussion isn't inherently unproductive about matters like this. there certainly can be unproductive discussion about such matters tho.

It is on the Hype.

 

[DV8]

You believe

I don't

why can't it be that simple. Belief in God is fine as long as you don't go preaching and trying to convert me. I simply gave reasons why I personally don't believe and have no desire to convert you into an atheist

After all didn't God (and I will paraphrase a bit here) say that we humans

"Can choose whether or not to believe" in him.

Because I choose not to believe I cannot be punished for this, as he already said that not believing was okay to. So when I die I should still be allowed in heaven, cuz if I'm not he is being a hypcrite.

Personally I think atheism is better and if you bare with me I will try to explin why.

Using what I said about god not being able to punish us for not believing in him as a basis. If I choose not to believe in him, but still live a good and decent life, then die and end up in heaven where he proves that he does exist after all...then that is fine and I will opologise for not believing in him.

On the other hand if all you devout believers spend your entire life following his teachings and worshipping him only to die and find that he does not exist and you are now simply worm food...well which of us has wasted their lives.

Not that I'm saying that your lives are a waste or anything, just trying to put a case forward for atheism

Again, nowhere in this thread did I say I believe in God, necessarily . . . I'm not trying to convert anyone over, I'm just arguing on this side of the topic. I believe in science. I don't practice any kind of organized religion, and I also believe that if you live a good life, you are doing good in the eyes of God if he in fact exists . . . do unto others, etc., etc. is what I believe . . . .

as far as God goes, I have a different perception of how he/she/it operates which does not agree w/ organized religion, and which also compliments science . . . . wow; I wish I could have posted this before this thread died . . .

 

[Darthphere]

Good lord, people just stop. Can we get a mod or something from stopping KD from making these threads.