I'm Reading Your Stuff: General News and Discussion Thread

[SwordOfMorning]

And what the hell would he be selling here lol. A lot of your overt skepticism over every single James Gunn statement seems extremely thoughtless to me, like "He says it so he must be lying" even if there's quite genuinely nothing to point in that direction whatsoever and even if there's not a reason for him to do so. And I don't even have any idea why you are skeptical of the idea they aren't yet on pre-production when the last thing we knew about a month ago is that the script still isn't done, also have zero clue why you think casting already begun for the film when there's no signs of that being the case either and doesn't even coincide with how Matt went about things for the first film.

If The Batman 2 was already with a completed and greenlit script he'd just say it. No idea what you think the angle here would be about just lying about that.

Invader, Gunn says six million things on social media every day. 99% of which I do not accuse of being lies. I think he cynically spins narratives to appeal to the fandom which he’s hyper (and overly) aware of and clearly desperately wants to appeal to or whatever other corporate shilling he’s called to do in the moment. He is inherently untrustworthy because of the position he holds - no one should ever, ever trust someone whose job it is to be a shill and hypeman.

I think he cultivates statements like this to make it clear he’s not repeating past regime’s mistakes even if it’s massively splitting hairs to such a degree it basically means nothing. It’s not a huge deal, but a lot of it is spin because Gunn is a terminally online exec lol. The Batman’s absence from that list isn’t even that important, it’s just him trying to differentiate himself from the last regime by having a really rigid definition of production so it doesn’t sound like they’re throwing eight million projects out there that’ll never happen.

 

[emielaen]

Hollywood is expecting The Penguin panel to get people talking and no one's gonna talk about The Penguin show so it's got to be something else"

She’s such a hating loser lol

 

[Invader Joker]

Invader, Gunn says six million things on social media every day. 99% of which I do not accuse of being lies. I think he cynically spins narratives to appeal to the fandom which he’s hyper (and overly) aware of and clearly desperately wants to appeal to or whatever other corporate shilling he’s called to do in the moment. He is inherently untrustworthy because of the position he holds - no one should ever, ever trust someone whose job it is to be a shill and hypeman.

I think he cultivates statements like this to make it clear he’s not repeating past regime’s mistakes even if it’s massively splitting hairs to such a degree it basically means nothing. It’s not a huge deal, but a lot of it is spin because Gunn is a terminally online exec lol. The Batman’s absence from that list isn’t even that important, it’s just him trying to differentiate himself from the last regime by having a really rigid definition of production so it doesn’t sound like they’re throwing eight million projects out there that’ll never happen.

It's not splitting hairs. No director or producer or studio head would ever tell you that the difference between "development" and "pre production" is splitting hairs lol. Even from just a practical standpoint, pre-production is when the number of people actively working on a blockbuster of this scale grows to the hundreds, so from both a director and studio head's PoV their work on the film becomes much much different than how it is at a development stage. If you were to ask Matt Reeves he'd tell you the exact same answer; they're not in pre-production yet. Pre-production has a specific meaning as a stage of filmmaking for a reason.

 

[Invader Joker]

She’s such a hating loser lol

Is she wrong tho. If all they have to drop for The Penguin panel is another trailer where they show a bunch of random mobsters with more variations of them saying "Carmine Falcone is dead" while also maybe showing a tease of a Batman shadow I don't think that's gonna stay in the spotlight too long the same day Marvel Studios has its big Hall H panel.

 

[emielaen]

Is she wrong tho. If all they have to drop for The Penguin panel is another trailer where they show a bunch of random mobsters with more variations of them saying "Carmine Falcone is dead" while also maybe showing a tease of a Batman shadow I don't think that's gonna stay in the spotlight too long the same day Marvel Studios has its big Hall H panel.

And yet she still sounds like a hating loser.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Also it's Grace so take it for what it's worth but she's hearing it's expected some big stuff is gonna drop in The Penguin panel.

Well.
Her exact wording is: "From what I heard Hollywood is expecting The Penguin panel to get people talking and no one's gonna talk about The Penguin show so it's got to be something else"
She even says she speculates (or heard?) it's why Marvel put their presentation last, because they're expecting for that panel to get quite a splash.

My guess: Mark Strong is gonna be revealed as Mr. Freeze, Hugo Strange, Clayface or whoever the villain of Part 2 is.

Which I actually think would be kinda underwhelming but underwhelming is exactly what I'm expecting from that panel lmao

Why would announcing a great actor as the main villain of Part II be underwhelming? That’s one of the big moments in any CBMs hype cycle.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I mean, obviously Penguin isn’t going to be as splashy as the MCU stuff. It’s a totally different style of marketing and hype lol.

 

[Invader Joker]

And yet she still sounds like a hating loser.

I hate to defend Grace but in that same video she goes on to say she loves Matt Reeves Batman and when someone brings up jokingly "Matt better have the sequel be even better than TDK" she responded by saying "I think it will, I really trust him". It's just The Penguin she's not thrilled about.

 

[Invader Joker]

Why would announcing a great actor as the main villain of Part II be underwhelming? That’s one of the big moments in any CBMs hype cycle.

'Cause I think Mark Strong is a ridiculously boring announcement for a casting choice. He's everywhere, he seems to take any role he's offered and has already been in several CBMs before so I don't really think it's like a mic drop moment to announce him even if I think he'll ultimately do a fine job.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Invader, I’m honestly curious: what is your dream scenario with the current ‘chaos’ (I don’t think it’s actually chaotic BTS between Gunn and Reeves, but you get what I mean) regarding Batman and multiple iterations? You love Gunn and mostly seem unenthused by anything going forward with The Batman Saga except Pattinson. I’m not baiting or ****ing with you, I’m just getting a read on where you’re at.

 

[Invader Joker]

Invader, I’m honestly curious: what is your dream scenario with the current ‘chaos’ (I don’t think it’s actually chaotic BTS between Gunn and Reeves, but you get what I mean) regarding Batman and multiple iterations? You love Gunn and mostly seem unenthused by anything going forward with The Batman Saga except Pattinson. I’m not baiting or ****ing with you, I’m just getting a read on where you’re at.

R Rating for The Batman 2 would probably make my excitement skyrocket, and a full commitment on Matt leaning even harder on the realism and elseworlds nature of the first film, doing something that you really could only do if you were doing a mega idiosyncratic take on the Batman story. Court of Owls would make me very excited too.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

R Rating for The Batman 2 would probably make my excitement skyrocket, and a full commitment on Matt leaning even harder on the realism and elseworlds nature of the first film, doing something that you really could only do if you were doing a mega idiosyncratic take on the Batman story. Court of Owls would make me very excited too.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

R Rating for The Batman 2 would probably make my excitement skyrocket, and a full commitment on Matt leaning even harder on the realism and elseworlds nature of the first film, doing something that you really could only do if you were doing a mega idiosyncratic take on the Batman story. Court of Owls would make me very excited too.

I don’t see what would be gained from an R rating, tbh. The Batman touches on a lot of extremely dark implications that would just feel crass to make explicit in a Batman movie.

 

[Invader Joker]

I don’t see what would be gained from an R rating, tbh. The Batman touches on a lot of extremely dark implications that would just feel crass to make explicit in a Batman movie.

I think a lot would be gained from the R rating. I do think that an issue The Batman had was that I felt it held its punches many times. And I also think it kinda goes hand in hand with my other point which is that I just want this franchise to go actually all the way in, in terms of the elseworlds stuff and the darkness and realism etc. I also feel that since The Penguin is already gonna go R it's one of those things where the cat's already gonna be out of the bag so it'd be bizarre to then go back to a depiction of Gotham where everything is bloodless and everything is innuendo and indirect etc.

The Batman had this thing where it didn't lean too hard into either the comic bookiness but it also didn't lean too hard into the whole "This is an alternate take, this is a completely different beast from any other Batman movie you could see" thing either. And I thought it worked fine for it, it's my favorite Batman film after all, but I also think that if you're gonna do a sequel you kinda have to pick a lane and go all the way with it and really really take a gigantic swing it could only take by being in the circumstance its in. And since its lane is elseworlds, I think it should go all the way with that. Complete and total commitment to doing stuff you could only get away with if your take isn't gonna be the "main one" and if you're not gonna follow the comic trajectory.

Mark Strong as Mr. Freeze or whatever would feel underwhelming to me because it's very... safe? Generic? Which is the exact opposite of what I want from this take on Gotham and Batman. I want this "epic crime saga" to make decisions it could only make by being elseworlds from story to casting to everything. If, for example, Jeremy Strong got announced as Harvey Dent, Freeze, Karlo or something that'd actually make me excited. Mark Strong just makes me roll my eyes a bit even if I think ultimately he'll be fine.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I think a lot would be gained from the R rating. I do think that an issue The Batman had was that I felt it held its punches many times. And I also think it kinda goes hand in hand with my other point which is that I just want this franchise to go actually all the way in, in terms of the elseworlds stuff and the darkness and realism etc. I also feel that since The Penguin is already gonna go R it's one of those things where the cat's already gonna be out of the bag so it'd be bizarre to then go back to a depiction of Gotham where everything is bloodless and everything is innuendo and indirect etc.

The Batman had this thing where it didn't lean too hard into either the comic bookiness but it also didn't lean too hard into the whole "This is an alternate take, this is a completely different beast from any other Batman movie you could see" thing either. And I thought it worked fine for it, it's my favorite Batman film after all, but I also think that if you're gonna do a sequel you kinda have to pick a lane and go all the way with it and really really take a gigantic swing it could only take by being in the circumstance its in. And since its lane is elseworlds, I think it should go all the way with that. Complete and total commitment to doing stuff you could only get away with if your take isn't gonna be the "main one" and if you're not gonna follow the comic trajectory.

Mark Strong as Mr. Freeze or whatever would feel underwhelming to me because it's very... safe? Generic? Which is the exact opposite of what I want from this take on Gotham and Batman. I want this "epic crime saga" to make decisions it could only make by being elseworlds from story to casting to everything. If, for example, Jeremy Strong got announced as Harvey Dent, Freeze, Karlo or something that'd actually make me excited. Mark Strong just makes me roll my eyes a bit even if I think ultimately he'll be fine.

I want it to embrace the elseworlds in terms of fundamentally breaking the Batman status quo. Ultimately, I don't have too many strong preferences - I just want to see the direction the story naturally goes - but my inclination is very much the opposite. My read on The Batman is that it is, in part, a movie about how Batman as an edgy violent grim dark power fantasy is childish and stupid. I'd much rather, while remaining dark and serious, things get weirder and to lean heavily into the "Adam West, but a gritty noir thriller" energy the first movie has. Robin is the absolute ideal scenario, imo, but I know we intensely disagree about that.

If Strong is Clayface, which I think he is, that's a role he's super suited to. He's got the exact right look for a character meant to evoke classic horror stars.

 

[Invader Joker]

I want it to embrace the elseworlds in terms of fundamentally breaking the Batman status quo. Ultimately, I don't have too many strong preferences - I just want to see the direction the story naturally goes - but my inclination is very much the opposite. My read on The Batman is that it is, in part, a movie about how Batman as an edgy violent grim dark power fantasy is childish and stupid. I'd much rather, while remaining dark and serious, things get weirder and to lean heavily into the "Adam West, but a gritty noir thriller" energy the first movie has. Robin is the absolute ideal scenario, imo, but I know we intensely disagree about that.

See, the thing to me is that, if things were to continue to go in that direction... I'd also want them to go all the way with it as well, which to me would mean that at that point I'd rather them rip the band-aid off, go fantastical, evolve him into fully resembling more the type of post-Crisis quintissential Batman and merge him into the DCU lmao. Basically my perspective is that whatever it is they do, they should go all the way with it. They wanna embrace the comic-bookiness of it all and lean into that even harder? Fine, then truly unapologetically do that. You wanna remain an elseworlds that's gonna go harder on this whole "EPIC CRIME SAGA" thing that's based on noir cinema and neo noir cinema? Fine, then also go all the way with that, and make a movie that'd truly stand side by side with Se7en, Chinatown, Zodiac, French Connection or any noir thriller you can name or any other source of inspiration Matt could cite.

I do think that the first movie, while I once again stress I think was great and worked, did have kind of a disconnect because you had Matt Reeves talking in every single interview about all these extraordinarily grounded inspirations and constantly going on about the realism and darkness and grittiness... and yet alongside it there were TV spots of action toys being released based on the film. And even within the movie itself you had the first 2 acts which were completely grounded in that way only to then explode into standard blockbuster fare by the third act with Batman having all sorts of crazy comic booky moves in that last fight etc. Which again, worked fine, but if you're gonna go in that direction then go all the way with it and go full comic booky. And if you are not then go full and complete gritty mature noir. Really swing for the fences no matter what they do and really fully commit.

 

[Boom]

I want to thank James Gunn for these last few pages.

 

[emielaen]

All he did was not mention this film at all. #FireGunn

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

Oh, James Gunn… We got more one more week before the Penguin panel. Hopefully we will get an update from Reeves.

 

[routhman]

I kind of hope Strong is Freeze, just to see how that character would be adapted in this world. Would Reeves go fantastical (e.g. frozen human in cryogenic suit), or would he go Aronofsky (e.g. regular human wearing refrigerator backpack)? I think either could work, but I think the fantastical approach could strike a really interesting contrast with the world they’ve established.

 

[routhman]

I want it to embrace the elseworlds in terms of fundamentally breaking the Batman status quo. Ultimately, I don't have too many strong preferences - I just want to see the direction the story naturally goes - but my inclination is very much the opposite. My read on The Batman is that it is, in part, a movie about how Batman as an edgy violent grim dark power fantasy is childish and stupid. I'd much rather, while remaining dark and serious, things get weirder and to lean heavily into the "Adam West, but a gritty noir thriller" energy the first movie has. Robin is the absolute ideal scenario, imo, but I know we intensely disagree about that.

If Strong is Clayface, which I think he is, that's a role he's super suited to. He's got the exact right look for a character meant to evoke classic horror stars.

Based on Pattinson’s final speech, right? I don’t know if I’d say he thinks the character is “childish and stupid.” I don’t think we’re going to lose the “edgy violent grim dark power fantasy” aspects. What would that look like? He stops being so brutal when subduing criminals? Is he suddenly going to subdue them nonviolently?

To me, that speech meant that he needs to strike a balance. He needs to continue to intimidate dirtbags, while also finding a way to reach out and show kindness to the people he’s trying to protect. When he strikes that balance, he’ll become quintessential Batman.

 

[J.Drangal]

I kind of hope Strong is Freeze, just to see how that character would be adapted in this world. Would Reeves go fantastical (e.g. frozen human in cryogenic suit), or would he go Aronofsky (e.g. regular human wearing refrigerator backpack)? I think either could work, but I think the fantastical approach could strike a really interesting contrast with the world they’ve established.

My opinion on adapting characters like Mr. Freeze is that it all boils down to the “science fiction” approach, in its original sense. As long as there's a pseudo-scientific basis to build on, there's a lot you can get your audience to accept, regardless of the setting in which you tell your story.

I may be touching on a forbidden subject here, but if Nolan managed to give us dream-travel technology, time-reversal technology, a killer with half his body burned off, or a cloning machine in his films, while still being considered the “master of realism”, then I think Reeves will have no problem giving us something like Mr.Freeze. We might even consider that he has an advantage, as his Batman universe offers a certain visual stylization that could facilitate the incursion of fantasy. Personally, I could even imagine a Man-Bat variation in this world, which doesn't seem too far removed from the stylistic darkness of Cronenberg's The Fly...
Anyway, getting back to Mr. Freeze, I've always thought that a more grounded/scf-fi approach to the character could portray a Victor Fries using cold to slow the progression of a disease he'd share with his wife. It doesn't seem too far-fetched from a scientific point of view, and it might also add some new dramatic tension with a guy fighting against the clock to save his lover (instead of his usual immortality, which might be the hardest sell...).

Which leads me to my second point: if the character's dramatic core is successfully crafted and we feel invested in his story, then the degree of realism of a character like Mr.Freeze will remain an interesting discussion only for a handful of the most psycho-rigid nerds in obscure corners of the internet... (... so probably here...)

 

[Invader Joker]

I kind of hope Strong is Freeze, just to see how that character would be adapted in this world. Would Reeves go fantastical (e.g. frozen human in cryogenic suit), or would he go Aronofsky (e.g. regular human wearing refrigerator backpack)? I think either could work, but I think the fantastical approach could strike a really interesting contrast with the world they’ve established.

He'd 100% go for some version of the latter, if he decides to stick to the philosophy with which he created the first film.

Based on Pattinson’s final speech, right? I don’t know if I’d say he thinks the character is “childish and stupid.” I don’t think we’re going to lose the “edgy violent grim dark power fantasy” aspects. What would that look like? He stops being so brutal when subduing criminals? Is he suddenly going to subdue them nonviolently?

To me, that speech meant that he needs to strike a balance. He needs to continue to intimidate dirtbags, while also finding a way to reach out and show kindness to the people he’s trying to protect. When he strikes that balance, he’ll become quintessential Batman.

Reeves also, in both the director's commentary and I think an interview with Josh Horowitz, was very careful to point out that it's not gonna be as simple as "He's now learned his lesson and all that darkness and stuff is gone". He's made a point of stating how he's still gonna remain extremely, extremely flawed as a human being and still gonna have to deal with the negative stuff he was dealing with in the first film. That, couple with Reeves stating how Gotham is never gonna actually improve, does lean me to believe he has a somewhat more cynical view of where this Batman is gonna be headed than people think.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Based on Pattinson’s final speech, right? I don’t know if I’d say he thinks the character is “childish and stupid.” I don’t think we’re going to lose the “edgy violent grim dark power fantasy” aspects. What would that look like? He stops being so brutal when subduing criminals? Is he suddenly going to subdue them nonviolently?

To me, that speech meant that he needs to strike a balance. He needs to continue to intimidate dirtbags, while also finding a way to reach out and show kindness to the people he’s trying to protect. When he strikes that balance, he’ll become quintessential Batman.

What changes is the driving force of Bruce. Yes, he will be violent. But much like Bale's Batman, he won't be driven by revenge and thus function differently. Both as Batman and Bruce Wayne. I expect his relationship with Gordon and by extension the cops, to be different. Same with the public as a whole. He didn't lead those kids out of darkness by mistake.

 

[routhman]

My opinion on adapting characters like Mr. Freeze is that it all boils down to the “science fiction” approach, in its original sense. As long as there's a pseudo-scientific basis to build on, there's a lot you can get your audience to accept, regardless of the setting in which you tell your story.

I may be touching on a forbidden subject here, but if Nolan managed to give us dream-travel technology, time-reversal technology, a killer with half his body burned off, or a cloning machine in his films, while still being considered the “master of realism”, then I think Reeves will have no problem giving us something like Mr.Freeze. We might even consider that he has an advantage, as his Batman universe offers a certain visual stylization that could facilitate the incursion of fantasy. Personally, I could even imagine a Man-Bat variation in this world, which doesn't seem too far removed from the stylistic darkness of Cronenberg's The Fly...
Anyway, getting back to Mr. Freeze, I've always thought that a more grounded/scf-fi approach to the character could portray a Victor Fries using cold to slow the progression of a disease he'd share with his wife. It doesn't seem too far-fetched from a scientific point of view, and it might also add some new dramatic tension with a guy fighting against the clock to save his lover (instead of his usual immortality, which might be the hardest sell...).

Which leads me to my second point: if the character's dramatic core is successfully crafted and we feel invested in his story, then the degree of realism of a character like Mr.Freeze will remain an interesting discussion only for a handful of the most psycho-rigid nerds in obscure corners of the internet... (... so probably here...)

I don’t really care about realism on film these days. But you can take very different approaches, and it definitely affects the tone of the film. I’m just curious what he’ll do.

He could very easily turn Mr Freeze into another serial killer who leaves people in industrial freezers lol.