All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation

[misslane38]

Actually I suffered from PTSD when I was 9 growing up in Baghdad and as a doctor I do come across it on occasion (not often) so I know enough, but I'm by no means an expert. One thing I know for sure is that one size doesn't fit all and different people can and often exhibit different symptoms of PTSD depending on their personality and experiences.

One size doesn't fit all. So is it possible that Bruce's PTSD might have manifested in a way that would made him obsessive, hypervigilant, and hypercompetent towards eliminating what his mind had identified as the source of his feelings of fear and powerlessness rather than direct those same energies towards investigating a man he had already dehumanized and objectified?

Yeah in order to achieve his goal of killing a god like-being who is way above his weight class batman would need to know everything about him, not because he's interested in his life but rather because he's interested in the aspects of his life that would make him vulnerable.

Batman did use his brain to identify the thing that would make Superman most vulnerable. It really did turn out that the kryptonite was the best weapon to defeat Superman, so I don't see the flawed logic or thinking. Batman invested his investigative energies on the kryptonite, and the kryptonite allowed Batman to come just short of accomplishing his goal. In fact, his kryptonite was good enough to kill Doomsday.

No that's not the main reason, Luthor did what batman should've done and investigated superman inorder to know how to beat him. Also I got the impression that he hated superman BECAUSE he viewed him as the embodiment of god, the very same concept that didn't save him from his daddy's fists.

Lex hated Superman because he did not believe in God. God as an omnipotent source of good was a lie. God was a lie because he wasn't good enough or powerful enough to save Lex from his father's abuse. So in order to prove that Superman was similarly flawed and impotent, Lex devised an experiment to expose Superman's shortcomings as God.

And by investigating superman he'd likely have a better understanding of how to confront superman and that having PTSD doesn't negate that fact.

Yes, it does. Having PTSD explains why Bruce did not once consider Superman as human. He even tells Superman that he sees him as neither god nor man. Bruce was blocked from investigating the possibility of Superman's humanity because he did not see him as human. He was fixated on the alien because it allowed him to objectify Superman as the focal point of all of his rage and feelings of powerlessness.

 

[Flint Marko]

No, it's not. There's no response from me to you there at all. There's nothing to verify. It is possible off-topic posts were deleted, but if that's the case, then I can't verify what you said and what I allegedly said is accurate. Sorry.

Yes, it is. You can click and scroll through the pages to see where the discussion went.

I will say, however, that if I posed the "certain women" as a question (it sounds like I did if I said anything at all to you), so any accusations of sexism would have been linked to your response to that question. Otherwise, it is just a question aimed at trying to understand your reasoning since none was provided.

Immediately feeling that someone might have sexist reasons for disliking something is absurd when they have given you zero reasons for jumping to that conclusion. I've criticized a lot about the DCEU, including many specific lines, and was never accused of sexism. It's an inappropriate and, frankly, offensive question.

Then why did you say that her one line about "measuring *****" made you dislike a likable actress?

Let's look at my original quote about that line:

I knew I disliked her character from the moment she had that line about "measuring ****s" in Man of Steel, and it only got worse from there.

Now that that's settled, let me clarify (again) what I said earlier in my quote just so there's no question:

I've hinted at this before but my distaste of the DCEU stems entirely from the lackluster treatment of Superman and, somehow, making me dislike one of the most likable and charming actress' working today.

Again: I was speaking about her specifically in the DCEU. I dislike Amy Adam's character and her performance.

 

[misslane38]

Yes, it is. I assume you know how to navigate through these forums? You can click and scroll through the pages to see where the discussion went.

Okay, found it! That was a lot of pages to click through! Let's see, yep, it's exactly what I thought. It's a question. It is not an accusation of sexism.

Immediately feeling that someone might have sexist reasons for disliking something is absurd when they have given you zero reasons for jumping to that conclusion. I've criticized a lot about the DCEU, including many specific lines, and was never accused of sexism. It's an inappropriate and, frankly, offensive question.

Asking a question and suspecting someone's reasoning might be sexist is NOT THE SAME thing as calling someone sexist! What are your reasons for disliking the line, though?

Again: I was speaking about her specifically in the DCEU. I dislike Amy Adam's character and her performance.

I know that you clarified. I was wondering why your original post was phrased as a dislike of the actress and the character rather than just the character? You're saying that you misspoke, then fine. It happens.

 

[Superchan]

One size doesn't fit all. So is it possible that Bruce's PTSD might have manifested in a way that would made him obsessive, hypervigilant, and hypercompetent towards eliminating what his mind had identified as the source of his feelings of fear and powerlessness rather than direct those same energies towards investigating a man he had already dehumanized and objectified?

And again part of being hypervigilant and especially hypercompetent is to cover you bases and know you enemy fully.

Batman did use his brain to identify the thing that would make Superman most vulnerable. It really did turn out that the kryptonite was the best weapon to defeat Superman, so I don't see the flawed logic or thinking. Batman invested his investigative energies on the kryptonite, and the kryptonite allowed Batman to come just short of accomplishing his goal. In fact, his kryptonite was good enough to kill Doomsday.

No he didn't, he only followed the breadcrumbs that lex gave him and if he was as hypercompetent as you put it then he would've investigated superman to cover his bases and make sure that he knew all he could incase his plan doesn't work.

Lex hated Superman because he did not believe in God. God as an omnipotent source of good was a lie. God was a lie because he wasn't good enough or powerful enough to save Lex from his father's abuse. So in order to prove that Superman was similarly flawed and impotent, Lex devised an experiment to expose Superman's shortcomings as God.

His plan was simple, take superman down anyway possible.

Yes, it does. Having PTSD explains why Bruce did not once consider Superman as human. He even tells Superman that he sees him as neither god nor man. Bruce was blocked from investigating the possibility of Superman's humanity because he did not see him as human. He was fixated on the alien because it allowed him to objectify Superman as the focal point of all of his rage and feelings of powerlessness.

Again it has nothing to do with investigating superman's humanity, it was about investigating the entity/alien that is superman so he could take him down or it should've been had he actually bothered to do it but he was written as an idiot and your PTSD reasoning doesn't hold water for me.

 

[Flint Marko]

Okay, found it! That was a lot of pages to click through! Let's see, yep, it's exactly what I thought. It's a question. It is not an accusation of sexism.

Asking a question and suspecting someone's reasoning might be sexist is NOT THE SAME thing as calling someone sexist!

Again: it's a baseless and offensive question that had no place in that conversation. If you criticized a line that black actor had said and someone questioned whether or not you were racist, it'd be just as baseless and inappropriate.

I know that you clarified. I was wondering why your original post was phrased as a dislike of the actress and the character rather than just the character?

Because, for the third time, I disliked her performance in the movie. Admittedly my original post was somewhat vague, but note how I was talking about her in the context of the DCEU and prefaced it with how likable and charming I find her elsewhere.

 

[misslane38]

And again part of being hypervigilant and especially hypercompetent is to cover you bases and know you enemy fully.

Not if in you're suffering from cognitive impairment as a result of PTSD, which might make you single-minded. Batman had decided that Superman was an alien and a threat. He was in survival mode; he was fighting. So he focused on the easiest way to defeat Superman, and he was successful in that regard.

His plan was simple, take superman down anyway possible.

Simple? There were several moving parts and it took a long time to make sure all the pieces were in place. Lex's plan was not simple at all, in my opinion. The way he took Superman down did matter to him. He says so himself: "If God is all powerful, he cannot be all good. And if he's all good then he cannot be all powerful. And neither can you be. They need to see the fraud you are. With their eyes. The blood on your hands."

 

[misslane38]

Again: it's a baseless and offensive question that had no place in that conversation. If you criticized a line that black actor had said and someone questioned whether or not you were racist, it'd be just as baseless and inappropriate.

Baseless? You criticized a line about "measuring *****" so forcefully that you said it ruined the actress for you. Now, loads of time later, you've clarified that you just meant Amy as Lois in the DCEU, but at the time it seemed like you were allowing this one line to sour an entire actress for you. That's huge. That meant to me at the time that the line gave a huge offense to you beyond disliking a line in the minor way that I dislike the jokes that Felicity makes on Arrow without those jokes alone ruining her character or the actress for me. At the time, it placed a lot of weight on just that one line.

So, now that we've established that you misspoke and that you meant just Amy's Lois, can you explain why you disliked the line so much that it ruined her for you? What did the line say about the nature of her personality and her character that you found it so repulsive? Or, if it was the performance, what about it was so bad that it poisoned your appreciation of Amy's portrayal of Lois?

Because, for the third time, I disliked her performance in the movie. Admittedly my original post was somewhat vague, but note how I was talking about her in the context of the DCEU and prefaced it with how likable and charming I find her elsewhere.

Okay, so now we've moved from disliking a line of dialogue to disliking the performance, which is a different matter. What could Amy have done to have performed the line more to your liking? Or is it really still the line and not the performance that you have issues with?

Basically, just help me understand why that line was seared into your brain and so damaging to your appreciation of the character that you singled it out and blamed it for ruining DCEU Lois for you.

 

[misslane38]

For what it's worth, this is my interpretation of the scene.

Hardy: We were expecting you tomorrow.
Lois: Which is why I showed up today. Look, let's get one thing straight, guys, okay? The only reason I'm here is because we're on Canadian soil and the appellate court overruled your injunction to keep me away. So if we're done measuring ***** can you have your people show me what you found?​

When Lois says "measuring *****," she's referring to how society makes assumptions of power based on size. In this case, the size she's referring to isn't something physical but something of power and influence. They tried to establish their size/power by issuing an injunction to keep her away. She established hers by getting that injunction overruled and then showing up a day early so they couldn't prepare for her arrival.

 

[TeeKay]

I hated Enchantress's "you don't have the balls" line in SS. Does that make me sexist?

 

[The Guard]

After reading the last couple of pages...here's a crazy thought. Maybe if people made less snarky negative comments about people's arguments or how passionately they make and attempt to support them (IE ridiculous), this thread wouldn't get derailed quote so often.

 

[misslane38]

I hated Enchantress's "you don't have the balls" line in SS. Does that make me sexist?

It depends on why you hated it. Why did you hate it?

 

[Superchan]

Not if in you're suffering from cognitive impairment as a result of PTSD, which might make you single-minded. Batman had decided that Superman was an alien and a threat. He was in survival mode; he was fighting. So he focused on the easiest way to defeat Superman, and he was successful in that regard.

Wrong, 'single minded' can and often does include planning and preparation and he wasn't in survival mode because he had 2 years to plan and execute his 'singular minded' vision and focusing on the easiest way to kill superman doesn't excuse him for being ill prepared.

Simple? There were several moving parts and it took a long time to make sure all the pieces were in place. Lex's plan was not simple at all, in my opinion. The way he took Superman down did matter to him. He says so himself: "If God is all powerful, he cannot be all good. And if he's all good then he cannot be all powerful. And neither can you be. They need to see the fraud you are. With their eyes. The blood on your hands."

You know what you're absolutely right, Lex's plan was an overtly convoluted mess but it's ultimate aim was simple and that was to take superman down and he did so by finding out about his enemy, something that Batman should've done if he wasn't written to be stupid.

 

[misslane38]

After reading the last couple of pages...here's a crazy thought. Maybe if people made less snarky negative comments about people's arguments or how passionately they make and attempt to support them (IE ridiculous), this thread wouldn't get derailed quote so often.

Well said. I agree, and for what it's worth I'll try to avoid engaging in that in the future. And that seems as good a place to pause as any.

 

[Superchan]

One more thing I forget to respond to:

I did it to neither of you. What I did was point out the sexism in your reasoning. I did not call you sexists simply because you do not Lois Lane or a version of Lois Lane. You are creating a strawman argument here, and it does you no favors.

No you outright accused me of being sexist because of my views on the silver age lois, which seems to be your go to card when ever someone is critical about any thing to do with lois lane.

 

[TeeKay]

It depends on why you hated it. Why did you hate it?

Because it was a cringe worthy line of dialogue from a poorly written villain delivered by an Meh to average actress at best. Actually the dance moves were more offensive than anything else.

 

[Timebomb]

So in summary, Batman must have a mental illness because if he didn't he would be one dumb SOB.

 

[Kane52630]

Because it was a cringe worthy line of dialogue from a poorly written villain delivered by an Meh to average actress at best. Actually the dance moves were more offensive than anything else.

 

[Bagide]

Why wasn't the JL thread like the last few pages?

 

[Ivan Drago]

Misslane is my role model. I wish I could express myself as well as her. I'd shut all you fools down.

Anyway the big problem I have with BvS is that it's just boring.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Ah, Gozer the Gozerian

 

[BH/HHH]

I really don't get why some people had a problem with that measuring ***** line in MOS I thought it was quite funny. She puts Hardy in his place.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Regardless of Batman having or not having PTSD (I'm not a doctor, I don't know), the way he's handled isn't remotely convincing. And while "on paper" I can see what they were trying to do with Batman, the film fails to build up Bruce's condition. That's why his actions feel mostly absurd, rather than tragic.

That being said, Batman is the least problematic part of BvS. What they did to Superman and Lex is on a whole different level.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I absolutely loved that and how creepy Enchantress was in general. Feel free to flame away.

 

[The Joker]

So in summary, Batman must have a mental illness because if he didn't he would be one dumb SOB.

The weak excuse for all dumb character writing. They were mentally unbalanced so they were not thinking straight.

Batman doesn't even have that excuse. He doesn't fit the bill for PTSD, it's never said or hinted at in the movie that he has it, nobody associated with the movie says or implies it even when trying to justify his reckless killing behavior.

 

[Lantern Venom]

The weak excuse for all dumb character writing. They were mentally unbalanced so they were not thinking straight.

Batman doesn't even have that excuse. He doesn't fit the bill for PTSD, it's never said or hinted at in the movie that he has it, nobody associated with the movie says or implies it even when trying to justify his reckless killing behavior.

Bruce does have several features of PTSD (nightmares, irritability, detachment) from his parents' murders, but BvS presents him as having more of an unspecified personality disorder than PTSD. He wasn't depressed or cognitively debilitated, but he was showing signs of severe anti-social behavior. Outside of his job, it seemed like he hadn't communicated with anyone but Alfred for decades, and Bruce made that contentious instead of therapeutic.

As I think I've said in some of our past discussions, I didn't have an issue with Batman dispatching well-armed foes who greatly outnumbered him. I only had a problem with Bruce's willingness to execute Superman without exploring other options to get rid of him. I remembered the conversation in Kingdom Come where Superman said to Batman (and this might not be exact), "In the end, Batman doesn't want to see anyone die. It's the only thing we ever had in common." I could digest the idea of Batman letting his insular, morose existence make him more brutal, but not quite a tone-deaf executioner. I can forgive that part, as well as some of BvS's other flaws, since the goal of the film was so lofty, but that will never quite sit well with me.