The Dark Knight Rises Improving Fight Scenes

[Infinity9999x]

Wow, I was unaware of this confusion entirely.

Guess my eyes are just more attentive or something - I do have a small history in martial arts. Hm.

I feel a sudden compulsion to ask my girlfriend what she saw in that scene, I showed her the film a few nights ago.

Yeah, and it could have been that I haven't actually watched the movie in a few years. Either way, while I didn't think the fights in BB were horrible, I thought they definitely could have been easier to follow. I have no problem with shaky-cam, but at least have it be like the apartment fight in Bourne Ultimatum (probably my favorite shaky-cam fight). That fight was quick, energetic, and you could feel the desperation and intensity of the fighters. In BB, there were just times were it was too hard to follow.

And I understood doing that for the docks, but even the others weren't that great. I think the best fight was probably the very first one in the prison. That was the easiest to follow for me.

 

[the amazing fro]

Wow, I was unaware of this confusion entirely.

Guess my eyes are just more attentive or something - I do have a small history in martial arts. Hm.

I feel a sudden compulsion to ask my girlfriend what she saw in that scene, I showed her the film a few nights ago.

No I too saw that it was Ra's.

Its quite obviously his glove that's stabbing the controls (I swear there is even a clear mid shot of him doing it).

 

[Lencho01]

I feel much of it has to do with the suit. With TDK it seemed he tried to have less cuts, but it highlighted how restrictive the suit can be. Bale's movements felt robotic compared to what can really be done. The previous films seemed to have better fights or at least more entertaining ones.

I haven't seen Tron, but for those who did, how well could the actors move in their suits. Based on what little I've seen, it seems pretty good. I think something like that and a really good fight choreographer would be great.

 

[RustyCage]

Now, I haven't watched BB in awhile, so I don't know for sure, but I thought it was Batman who jacked up the train. Ras says something to the effect of "that's why you can't stop me, and that's why you can't stop this train", and then Batman says "who said anything about stopping". Then, Ras looks at the controls, and notices them jacked up.

Am I wrong here? Maybe I need to re-watch it tonight?

Batman was at the panel that would have stopped the train, Ra's stabbed said panel to prevent stoppage.

But hey, rewatch it either way to enjoy the whole thing, I say.

 

[Conebone69]

I feel much of it has to do with the suit. With TDK it seemed he tried to have less cuts, but it highlighted how restrictive the suit can be. Bale's movements felt robotic compared to what can really be done. The previous films seemed to have better fights or at least more entertaining ones.

I haven't seen Tron, but for those who did, how well could the actors move in their suits. Based on what little I've seen, it seems pretty good. I think something like that and a really good fight choreographer would be great.

I agree. Bale always seems restricted in his suits, TDK less than BB because of the suit changes but he should move around like he did in that cinematic video game trailer above ^

 

[Lencho01]

Pretty much all the animated Batmen from BTAS to present day show how fun and entertaining his fights can be. I'd like a scene to introduce Batman like in New Frontier...

[YT]CV32-WDkplg[/YT]

Or we could look at Under The Red Hood for something similar in tone to the Nolanverse of how he could fight except for the less humanly possible parts of course...

[YT]OLLfhO0zXGI[/YT]

[YT]Os3VkJzsCVg[/YT]

 

[The Infernal]

Pretty much all the animated Batmen from BTAS to present day show how fun and entertaining his fights can be. I'd like a scene to introduce Batman like in New Frontier...

[YT]CV32-WDkplg[/YT]

Or we could look at Under The Red Hood for something similar in tone to the Nolanverse of how he could fight except for the less humanly possible parts of course...

[YT]OLLfhO0zXGI[/YT]

[YT]Os3VkJzsCVg[/YT]

I think the New Frontier fight scene is fairly laughable in terms of fight choreography. Not quite as bad as the old Adam West series, but not far off.

I think people might be looking in the wrong place with the cartoons to show how Nolan could improve the fights. Even without the humanly impossible elements I don't think many would translate well to live action.

 

[RustyCage]

Pretty much all the animated Batmen from BTAS to present day show how fun and entertaining his fights can be. I'd like a scene to introduce Batman like in New Frontier...

[YT]CV32-WDkplg[/YT]

Wow, his voice is... awful there.

I loved the art and the concept of the scene in the apartment with the moonlight coming in, but the voice totally sucked all the atmosphere out of Batman.

The fight scene was kinda generic, and we've seen Bale's Batman take on a number of foes at a time with more spectacle and attitude before.

Or we could look at Under The Red Hood for something similar in tone to the Nolanverse of how he could fight except for the less humanly possible parts of course...

[YT]OLLfhO0zXGI[/YT]

[YT]Os3VkJzsCVg[/YT]

No kidding, Red Hood jumps 20 feet in the air!

I love Batman's movements and style there. It's got a taste of Burton's Batman in the patience and the silence. The sort of looming statuesque posture, the way he glides around attacks like a ghost, and comes back at the opponent with rough aggression. And of course I admire the moments of resourcefulness.

The Animated Series usually did a good job of this as well. No surprise that some of the people behind Red Hood were also behind BTAS (Bruce Timm, etcetera). They definitely understand the character better than most others that have their hands on him.

 

[Lencho01]

I think the New Frontier fight scene is fairly laughable in terms of fight choreography. Not quite as bad as the old Adam West series, but not far off.

I think people might be looking in the wrong place with the cartoons to show how Nolan could improve the fights. Even without the humanly impossible elements I don't think many would translate well to live action.

What was so bad about the New Frontier fight?

What don't you think would translate well? I like the idea of being able to see what's going on very clearly while having a Batman who can move/fight as if he's highly trained.

Got any examples of what you'd like to see?

 

[Lencho01]

Wow, his voice is... awful there.

I loved the art and the concept of the scene in the apartment with the moonlight coming in, but the voice totally sucked all the atmosphere out of Batman.

The fight scene was kinda generic, and we've seen Bale's Batman take on a number of foes at a time with more spectacle and attitude before.

I loved Sisto's voice for that version of Batman.

I was thinking more of the idea of someone who's never seen him and being shocked at how he's taking on a group like that. Like say some cop or pedestrian.

No kidding, Red Hood jumps 20 feet in the air!

I love Batman's movements and style there. It's got a taste of Burton's Batman in the patience and the silence. The sort of looming statuesque posture, the way he glides around attacks like a ghost, and comes back at the opponent with rough aggression. And of course I admire the moments of resourcefulness.

The Animated Series usually did a good job of this as well. No surprise that some of the people behind Red Hood were also behind BTAS (Bruce Timm, etcetera). They definitely understand the character better than most others that have their hands on him.

Yeah, things like in Nolan's films would create some WTF? moments.

His movements and style could help add mystery around him. and separate him from any other fighter in the film.

 

[The Infernal]

What was so bad about the New Frontier fight??

It looked a movie fight thought up by someone who was never trained as a fight choreographer. It was just too simplistic. Batman's punches and kicks were awkward. There was no finesse. Now while BB/TDK never had over the top Kung Fu the moves he made did have some sense of flow between moves.

What don't you think would translate well? I like the idea of being able to see what's going on very clearly while having a Batman who can move/fight as if he's highly trained.?

I just didn't see that much that grabbed me and thought it would look great. While I did enjoy Under the Red Hood and enjoyed the fight scenes I just think there is something funny with their movements when fighting that I couldn't see looking the same in a live action Batman film and might look out of place in a Nolan Batman film with what he's already established.

Got any examples of what you'd like to see?

Actually I've only got one thing I'd like to see in the next film's fight scenes and that's an absence of the ready stance (for lack of a better word) for the martial arts they've used the last two movies. I've said it before and don't want to come across as broken record/hater. I just think it ruins the moment when we see it because it looks silly.

Just to add I agree we should be able to see Batman fight clearly and freely. I think the suit prevented much of that in BB, but in TDK we got a bit more but not everyone was happy with how they were shot (my main problem with it being stated in the previous paragraph).

I don't have much want in terms of style or moves etc. I just think that whatever he does in the fight scenes shouldn't be over the top and should seem straightforward as if every move is designed to incapacitate his opponent. Which I realise might make it seem like short fight when it comes to just thugs and criminals. Though with Bane I'd like to see it drag out because he's Batman's match and possibly just decend into a brawl to make it seem desperate.

 

[RustyCage]

I loved Sisto's voice for that version of Batman.

Based on that clip, I thought it was pretty terrible. Goes against the vibe of the visuals completely. Maybe I should watch the whole feature.

I was thinking more of the idea of someone who's never seen him and being shocked at how he's taking on a group like that. Like say some cop or pedestrian.

Hasn't that been done a couple of times in Nolan's films too though? The SWAT guys in The Dark Knight, the docks scene in Begins, the party scene in TDK.

His movements and style could help add mystery around him. and separate him from any other fighter in the film.

 

[RustyCage]

Actually I've only got one thing I'd like to see in the next film's fight scenes and that's an absence of the ready stance (for lack of a better word) for the martial arts they've used the last two movies. I've said it before and don't want to come across as broken record/hater. I just think it ruins the moment when we see it because it looks silly.

I just think that whatever he does in the fight scenes shouldn't be over the top and should seem straightforward as if every move is designed to incapacitate his opponent.

I agree with these sentiments.

Which I realise might make it seem like short fight when it comes to just thugs and criminals. Though with Bane I'd like to see it drag out because he's Batman's match and possibly just decend into a brawl to make it seem desperate.

Yeah, Batman's gonna make short work of those who aren't capable of putting up a fight, and I find that to be pretty cool. Likewise there'll be longer, more intense fights with those who can more or less handle their own.

Compare the duels with Ra's to the way Batman took out Crane's, or Joker's, thugs.

 

[Boom]

I'm hoping for a new fighting style. I just can't picture Batman and Bane having a final, epic battle with the keysi method.

Bane: *Swing elbow*
Batman: *Block elbow*
Batman: *Swing elbow*
Bane: *Elbow to the face*
Bane: *Swing elbow*
Batman: *Elbow to the chest*

 

[RustyCage]

I'd like to see more knees and kicks thrown (maybe with Batman's cape pulled around him so we can see it flow like that when he kicks), but that would require a less hindering stunt suit.

With Batman I expect kicks to be careful and scarce, but powerful as hell.

I may also be wrong about this, but I don't really remember him doing many hooks, straights, or crosses. Whenever he uses his fists it's kinda like he's doing a hammering motion with the side of it. Anyone got any examples of punches?

Oh, and, calm, bad*** dodging too please.

 

[Lencho01]

It looked a movie fight thought up by someone who was never trained as a fight choreographer. It was just too simplistic. Batman's punches and kicks were awkward. There was no finesse. Now while BB/TDK never had over the top Kung Fu the moves he made did have some sense of flow between moves.

Could be that they went with that style due to tha art. Or maybe they wanted him to fight a little bit more rough to fit with the period piece vibe of it all.

I just didn't see that much that grabbed me and thought it would look great. While I did enjoy Under the Red Hood and enjoyed the fight scenes I just think there is something funny with their movements when fighting that I couldn't see looking the same in a live action Batman film and might look out of place in a Nolan Batman film with what he's already established.

I see. Maybe it's a bit too cartoony for live-action. And it's perhaps too late in the game for such a drastic change in the Nolanverse.

Actually I've only got one thing I'd like to see in the next film's fight scenes and that's an absence of the ready stance (for lack of a better word) for the martial arts they've used the last two movies. I've said it before and don't want to come across as broken record/hater. I just think it ruins the moment when we see it because it looks silly.

Hmm... I never thought about that. I can't think of anytime when he does that. Maybe I've just seen it so much, it doesn't register with me. Does he do it all the time?

Just to add I agree we should be able to see Batman fight clearly and freely. I think the suit prevented much of that in BB, but in TDK we got a bit more but not everyone was happy with how they were shot (my main problem with it being stated in the previous paragraph).

I don't have much want in terms of style or moves etc. I just think that whatever he does in the fight scenes shouldn't be over the top and should seem straightforward as if every move is designed to incapacitate his opponent. Which I realise might make it seem like short fight when it comes to just thugs and criminals. Though with Bane I'd like to see it drag out because he's Batman's match and possibly just decend into a brawl to make it seem desperate.

True, it works best if both fighters have skills. And I agree with with fight with Bane just simply turning into a brawl towards the end. It'd be similar to Luke just hacking away at Vader.

 

[Gianakin_]

I'm hoping for a new fighting style. I just can't picture Batman and Bane having a final, epic battle with the keysi method.

Bane: *Swing elbow*
Batman: *Block elbow*
Batman: *Swing elbow*
Bane: *Elbow to the face*
Bane: *Swing elbow*
Batman: *Elbow to the chest*

As much as I love Keysi, I can't see it working (practically and visually) against Bane.

 

[Lencho01]

Based on that clip, I thought it was pretty terrible. Goes against the vibe of the visuals completely. Maybe I should watch the whole feature.

Well, his voice works best with his original look compared to the more "kid friendly" one. I'd say you should read the comic first. It's really good. Not much Batman in it though. They added more of him in the film since they love him.

Hasn't that been done a couple of times in Nolan's films too though? The SWAT guys in The Dark Knight, the docks scene in Begins, the party scene in TDK.

I was thinking more of just one person watching and not getting involved. Like it's something unbelievable for them to see. That's how the scene was played out in New Frontier (except they did get involved).

I've saving that. I just love how he has to turn his body.

 

[Lencho01]

Compare the duels with Ra's to the way Batman took out Crane's, or Joker's, thugs.

I was actually surprised at how well Joker handled himself with Batman. He laughed at his punches as if they were nothing. He roughed him up pretty well in their final fight too. But, he had dogs. Imagine if he had cats. t:

 

[RustyCage]

Well, his voice works best with his original look compared to the more "kid friendly" one.

What about compared to Greenwood, Conroy, and Bale?

I'd say you should read the comic first. It's really good. Not much Batman in it though. They added more of him in the film since they love him.

The Martian Manhunter book, right? (The bit about the matches and 'what you are' tipped me off.) I really enjoyed the art in what I've read of that - it was a preview, just several pages. Batman's dialogue was also awesome.

I would imagine the Batman from that book to sound smokier and darker, like Conroy.

Then again, like I said, I haven't seen the whole feature. I underestimated Greenwood too before I saw the entirety of Under the Red Hood.

I was thinking more of just one person watching and not getting involved. Like it's something unbelievable for them to see. That's how the scene was played out in New Frontier (except they did get involved).

With the docks scene, it was just Falcone. He walked up and saw and promptly panicked and split. 'What the hell are you?!'

I've saving that. I just love how he has to turn his body.

 

[raybia]

As much as I love Keysi, I can't see it working (practically and visually) against Bane.

I love the concept but for an action oriented film its not completely satisfying. I feel its time for some stylized fighting so I would love to see something similar to what is displayed in IP Man which features the Wing Chun fighting style. Maybe when Batman fights Bane, he quickly realizes that his current fighting style is ineffective and then changes up. I know Nolan wants the fighting style to be practical but it also needs to be entertaining. It is a movie after all.
[YT]BzC96R27eYU[/YT]

 

[The Infernal]

Could be that they went with that style due to tha art. Or maybe they wanted him to fight a little bit more rough to fit with the period piece vibe of it all.

I did consider it might have to do with it being a period piece, but I just think they could have done better without resorting to any martial arts. It just seemed like Batman didn't know the first thing about fighting.

Hmm... I never thought about that. I can't think of anytime when he does that. Maybe I've just seen it so much, it doesn't register with me. Does he do it all the time?

I think it's just mainly when Joker and his thugs crashes the party, been a while since I last saw it. I noticed it in the cinema and I recognised it from the making of documentary from Batman Begins where you get a clearer look at it. It's where he puts his hand up to his head, but unlike a boxing stance they're up beside his his head with his elbows sticking out. This is what I like to call 'Lynx effect' Batman (or Axe effect for Americans).

 

[RustyCage]

I was actually surprised at how well Joker handled himself with Batman. He laughed at his punches as if they were nothing.

It seemed to me like he was more entertained at the fact that someone like Batman existed and he was actually getting a reaction out of him - which was, in some respects, the point of his existence.

 

[The Infernal]

It seemed to me like he was more entertained at the fact that someone like Batman existed and he was actually getting a reaction out of him - which was, in some respects, the point of his existence.

When you say that it reminds me of Mark Hamill's Joker from the animated series when I was a kid. His Joker loved getting a reaction out of Batman. Sometimes it seemed like that was the whole point. I think there was something of that in TDK when Joker says "I wish I could quit you" "you're just too much fun".

 

[RustyCage]

[YT]BzC96R27eYU[/YT]

Strip that of some of the more absurd moments and it's pretty damn close to what I would consider the perfect Batman fighting style.

He even has the right demeanor about him. Calm, tall, steady, and then relentlessly powerful. No wasted movement. He reacts to his opponents with extreme efficiency and it's pretty scary and impressive.