The Dark Knight Rises Improving Fight Scenes

[Mr. Earle]

Even the worst directors get fight scenes right, why cant he get a good fight scene expert or something?

 

[Mr. Earle]

Everyone is all "ooh it needs to be realistic, ooh it needs to be practical", well it has to be fancy too because its a damn movie! So here's an example of a backflip done right. Not only is it cool, but it allows Batman to "teleport" away from a dangerous position. I think fans of practicality will appreciate that.

 

[RustyCage]

Edited because I'm just trolling Earle and was too mean for me to leave up.

Sorry Earle, that was a great example of a non-corny backflip.

 

[Mr. Earle]

They are legitimate fighting moves with lots of uses. Ever since Nolan unless a fight is a clean and practical takedown it's considered corny. Well call me a corn fan then because i loved the Matrix fights even though half the moves were unnecessary.

 

[RustyCage]

They are legitimate fighting moves with lots of uses. Ever since Nolan unless a fight is a clean and practical takedown it's considered corny. Well call me a corn fan then because i loved the Matrix fights even though half the moves were unnecessary.

I know your stance, we've talked about this before. I was just teasing you, buddy.

 

[KRIM]

So if there's a difference between the fight scenes in Batman Begins and the fight scenes in The Dark Knight, I don't think it was choreography, and I don't think it was Christian Bale--it was different demands for different action scenes. Basically, there are no ninjas for Batman to fight in The Dark Knight--just a bunch of guys with guns that he drops effortlessly.

The nature of the choreography may rely on the situation, but its implementation as an expression of the body's movements acts independently of that. As such I don't think there's any excuse for the lack of grace and finesse featured in both movies.

Batman is rarely given a worthy opponent to take down. However it's not required for both parties to be particularly skilled in martial arts to make the fight scene pleasing to look at. I've been witness to many fight demos that showcase one-sided battles and still manages to impress. Now obviously these are meant to be crowd pleasers and would probably be deemed a bit too flashy for this series' tone, but dialing it down a couple notches reaches a happy medium between practicality and beauty.

 

[lgi]

I thought the fighting scenes from the Bourne series was both practical and entertaining.

*The embassy scene from Bourne Conspiracy is great. Fast, practical, brutal and very fun to watch. Bourne strikes me as the better martial artist. Batman is supposed to be the BEST martial artist.

 

[Saint]

In any case, those are supposed to be fight scenes no matter who wins and no matter how easily. They arent romantic scenes, they are fighting scenes, period.

"They're supposed to be the kind of fight scene Mr. Earle likes, regardless of other considerations" is not an argument that I find particularly compelling, nor one that affects my position as to why the sequences were designed the way they were, and why I appreciate them.

I like the fights in the Matrix, too--but the fights in The Matrix function because it's the Matrix (especially the stiff, step-by-step choreography that doesn't resemble an actual fight at all, but rather resembles the programmed actions of people who've never been in a real fight in their lives). A fight like that in another movie could be ******ed; these people barely even look like they're fighting. In the Matrix, though, it's awesome.

I know that you don't care for the tone and approach of The Dark Knight, and thus don't care about fight scenes being consistent with that approach. I do care--and while that doesn't mean we can't have more involved fight scenes, is does inform the sort of fight scenes that make sense given the conditions, as I explained in my previous post. I don't know, maybe one of Lau's security goons could have been a ninja and challenged Batman to a rooftop battle of honour, but I don't think that's gonna fly.

Hopefully with Bane, on the other hand, we get a sharp fight scene--because there is a circumstance where such a battle would make sense.

 

[RustyCage]

In all seriousness, Earle's example of Batman tumbling backward wasn't exaggerated or Matrixy at all.

 

[EliteF50]

Everyone is all "ooh it needs to be realistic, ooh it needs to be practical", well it has to be fancy too because its a damn movie! So here's an example of a backflip done right. Not only is it cool, but it allows Batman to "teleport" away from a dangerous position. I think fans of practicality will appreciate that.

Off topic, but that is one of the worst animated movies from DC.

On topic, I don't think Bale's Batman should do flips (he barely turns his neck). But more agility is definitely needed.

 

[Saint]

The nature of the choreography may rely on the situation, but its implementation as an expression of the body's movements acts independently of that. As such I don't think there's any excuse for the lack of grace and finesse featured in both movies.

Don't mistake me; I understand if you find none of the fighting in either movie particularly appealing. They are not the best, that much is clear.

My post was only attempting to reconcile the differences between the fights as the exist in Begins and TDK.

Batman is rarely given a worthy opponent to take down. However it's not required for both parties to be particularly skilled in martial arts to make the fight scene pleasing to look at. I've been witness to many fight demos that showcase one-sided battles and still manages to impress. Now obviously these are meant to be crowd pleasers and would probably be deemed a bit too flashy for this series' tone, but dialing it down a couple notches reaches a happy medium between practicality and beauty.

I don't disagree on any particular point. Certainly, there is room for improvement while remaining practical.

I thought the fighting scenes from the Bourne series was both practical and entertaining.

*The embassy scene from Bourne Conspiracy is great. Fast, practical, brutal and very fun to watch. Bourne strikes me as the better martial artist. Batman is supposed to be the BEST martial artist.

Absolutely. I think the Bourne films nailed the sort of fighting style Batman should employ in Nolan's films. If Batman's fight scenes played out the way Bourne's do, that would make my goddamn day.

 

[RustyCage]

Absolutely. I think the Bourne films nailed the sort of fighting style Batman should employ in Nolan's films. If Batman's fight scenes played out the way Bourne's do, that would make my goddamn day.

Mix in some of the mystique of Begins with Bourne and bam!

 

[Saint]

In all seriousness, Earle's example of Batman tumbling backward wasn't exaggerated or Matrixy at all.

No, it's not--but it's also not really a movie I'd expect to see battling some dope with a gun.

I always enjoyed the fight with the Scarecrow's goons in Gotham Knight. Yeah, there are some silly parts (like Batman's approach causing a wave in the air), but it had the right amount of flair to it, and wouldn't betray the tone of a Nolan movie. Also, Batman shredding the pipe with his goddamn gauntlet gets me every time.

 

[Mister H.]

No, it's not--but it's also not really a movie I'd expect to see battling some dope with a gun.

I always enjoyed the fight with the Scarecrow's goons in Gotham Knight. Yeah, there are some silly parts (like Batman's approach causing a wave in the air), but it had the right amount of flair to it, and wouldn't betray the tone of a Nolan movie. Also, Batman shredding the pipe with his goddamn gauntlet gets me every time.

Me too. One of my favorite scenes from any animated Batman offering.

 

[RustyCage]

No, it's not--but it's also not really a movie I'd expect to see battling some dope with a gun.

Me either. That's probably the worse situation for that -- unless he was being shot at from afar and needed to tumble to cover.

But I guess there are more reliable and practical ways to do that, too.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I know your stance, we've talked about this before. I was just teasing you, buddy.

Sorry i didnt get the joke. No problem. t:

Edited because I'm just trolling Earle and was too mean for me to leave up.

Sorry Earle, that was a great example of a non-corny backflip.

Hahaha!

In all seriousness, Earle's example of Batman tumbling backward wasn't exaggerated or Matrixy at all.

Thanks. t:

As Saint has pointed out it would probably be more suited to another batmanverse than Nolan's. Its not that backflips are unrealistic but we ve gotten used to this slow, very grounded way this batman moves. It would suit someone like Favreau's Black Widow much better. Her fight scene was amazing btw and i loved those smoke gadgets she had.

 

[Mr. Earle]

"They're supposed to be the kind of fight scene Mr. Earle likes, regardless of other considerations" is not an argument that I find particularly compelling, nor one that affects my position as to why the sequences were designed the way they were, and why I appreciate them.

Look i'm just saying that fight scenes are fight scenes. The fundraiser, Maroni's club, the garage, etc are all fight scenes regardless of how the fight itself went. Arkham City's trailer has a fight scene well but you dont see me complaining about that one.

I like the fights in the Matrix, too--but the fights in The Matrix function because it's the Matrix (especially the stiff, step-by-step choreography that doesn't resemble an actual fight at all, but rather resembles the programmed actions of people who've never been in a real fight in their lives). A fight like that in another movie could be ******ed; these people barely even look like they're fighting. In the Matrix, though, it's awesome.

Fair point, you re right.

I know that you don't care for the tone and approach of The Dark Knight, and thus don't care about fight scenes being consistent with that approach. I do care--and while that doesn't mean we can't have more involved fight scenes, is does inform the sort of fight scenes that make sense given the conditions, as I explained in my previous post.

Ok i agree that given Nolan's world the fights should be more realistic but they re still pretty bad. See movies like Bourne or even that Tobey screen test. Only when he threw the guy across the street did it get over the top or supernatural.

I don't know, maybe one of Lau's security goons could have been a ninja and challenged Batman to a rooftop battle of honour, but I don't think that's gonna fly.

I wasnt asking for that obviously.

Hopefully with Bane, on the other hand, we get a sharp fight scene--because there is a circumstance where such a battle would make sense.

Amen to that.

 

[Saint]

Look i'm just saying that fight scenes are fight scenes. The fundraiser, Maroni's club, the garage, etc are all fight scenes regardless of how the fight itself went.

Yes, but my point was that not all fight scenes are equal. You can't just say "It's a fight scene, it should be this way or that way." The demands are different.

Arkham City's trailer has a fight scene well but you dont see me complaining about that one.

I imagine if Batman had to fight a bunch of spec ops guys in a Nolan film, it would go just fine.

Ok i agree that given Nolan's world the fights should be more realistic but they re still pretty bad. See movies like Bourne or even that Tobey screen test. Only when he threw the guy across the street did it get over the top or supernatural.

As I said, I think Bourne is the standard they should be shooting for.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I imagine if Batman had to fight a bunch of spec ops guys in a Nolan film, it would go just fine.

Didnt he already do that in the Prewitt building? Not that it was bad, but it doesnt compare to AC's fight scene. Granted its just graphics, but there's certainly room for improvement for Nolan.

 

[Saint]

Didnt he already do that in the Prewitt building? Not that it was bad, but it doesnt compare to AC's fight scene. Granted its just graphics, but there's certainly room for improvement for Nolan.

SWAT aren't really spec ops--though I suppose some of them could be formers. Anyways, I maintain that the conditions are different, though I certainly wouldn't suggest that the scene could not be improved.

 

[itsthebatman]

I love the Prewitt scene. Think it's a great action scene, just how you want to see Batman take out a bunch of SWAT guys.

 

[Secret Fawful]

[YT]N9I-ICtgylw[/YT]

One fight scene from Animated Series canon is better than any of the fight scenes in any of Nolan's films or Gotham Knights or any of the other animated DC offerings. Oh, and to the user that posted the Batman 89 fight scene, Godman I think it was, that's another amazing fight scene. The swords creating sparks off of Batman's gauntlets; that's just extremely friggin cool. The fight scenes in BB weren't bad by any means, but the only serviceable fight scene for me in TDK was the one in the parking garage. The scenes themselves were great, but the fighting in them wasn't really superb style-wise.

My rating on fights:
Nolan's films: 5
Burton's films: 9
Animated Series: 10
1960s Series: 7
Schumacher's series: 7
Batman: Under the Red Hood: 8
Other: 6

 

[Mr. Earle]

I wouldnt compare animated and live action fight scenes because it isnt fair for the movies with all the restrictions of real life. So as far as movies go i'd rate Nolan's fight scenes higher because of the thought that went into them. Tying the SWATs in the Prewitt building, stalking and picking off his enemies like a predator in BB, etc. Burton didnt do anything spectacular because Keaton could barely move in that thing. Schumacher had one good fight i can remember at the start of Batman Forever when Batman fights Two-Face's goons at the second (lol) bank of Gotham.

Oh and for those who havent seen it yet, prepare to change your underpants:

 

[Secret Fawful]

I wouldn't compare animated and live action fight scenes because it isn't fair for the movies with all the restrictions of real life.

There is not one thing in the fight scenes in Mask of the Phantasm that couldn't be done in live action. Furthermore, that Arkham City clip is animated. Furthermore, all animation is simply an exaggeration of something from reality. Furthermore, what restrictions are you even talking about. Batman has no limits.

Burton didn't do anything spectacular because Keaton could barely move in that thing.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. WRONG.

[YT]T78lwKBIQYs[/YT]

Every bit of the fighting in this clip is fantastic. It actually looks like, GASP, real martial arts. Keaton barely looks as rigid as you claim he does, which according to you is about as rigid as unmovable concrete. Batman should be able to fight better than Movie Jackie Chan. I call it Movie Jackie Chan, because in the movies, Chan's fights are chereographed, and even he doesn't get stuff right on first takes. Batman's fights could be choreographed just as well, if not better. Hell, Batman Forever ripped the Robin dries clothing with martial arts moves scene off from a movie by one of Jackie's biggest comrades, Chinese action star Yuen Biao.

[YT]fg4IORYEfl4[/YT]
Yuen Biao in Dreadnought


[YT]xEllAO0qF40[/YT]
Chris O' Donnell in Batman Forever

 

[RustyCage]

As Saint has pointed out it would probably be more suited to another batmanverse than Nolan's. Its not that backflips are unrealistic but we ve gotten used to this slow, very grounded way this batman moves. It would suit someone like Robin much better.

Fixed?