Iron Fist Iron Fist FULL SEASON ONE Discussion Thread (NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!)

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't think anyone would buy them needing to cut down episodes, as much as Marvel just needs to throw more money at them. They've got money in the bank. And it's hard to really predict how people, in general, would react to a more limited season after we've gotten used to the format.

I can see the seething anger of entitlement on Twitter over only having 8 or 9 episodes already.

 

[Saturius]

I don't think anyone would buy them needing to cut down episodes, as much as Marvel just needs to throw more money at them. They've got money in the bank. And it's hard to really predict how people, in general, would react to a more limited season after we've gotten used to the format.

I can see the seething anger of entitlement on Twitter over only having 8 or 9 episodes already.

The Defenders is already gonna only be 8 episodes. I think it's a step in the right direction. None of these series have felt like they needed 13 episodes to tell their stories imo. There's always 1 or 2 episodes where you feel like WTF is this even doing here. As of now, there is too much stretching going on.

 

[just one thing]

Liked it.

Reminded me of dallas but better punch ups. That sort of dysfunctional Machiavellian american family drama some one turns up to claim their birth right genre.

Ward was surprisingly sort of the hero of it. victim of domestic violence starts of terrible ends the season a better person.

Danny rand got a win suppose the iron fist didn't. Balancing the duality of that character seems to be a theme.

Not sure what happened with joy.

Presume all the bad guys will get recycled. Harold least interesting marvel bad guy bar scenes with ward. A cruel realness there i think.



Difficult line to walk not to make it too like daredevil and they did it.

If the marvel project is to make a tapestry and each section a different design then job complete. Could reasonably trim some of the fat of it.

 

[Loki882]

OK, my overall impressions of the show as a whole.

The Good:

-Colleen Wing-Yes her characterization got a bit wonky near the end, but overall she was still the best new character on the show. Daughters of the Dragon spinoff post-Defenders please Marvel.
-Seeing more of Claire and Hogarth is always welcome.
-Some of the fights scenes were good.
-Madame Gao-Yes retconning her to be a member of the Hand was eh (as was making her henchmen far less competent than they were in DD). But overall, she was really good and could project an impressive air of authority for such a seemingly frail old woman.
-Tom Pelphrey-I didn't care much for the writing of Ward Meachum as a character. But Tom did an impressive job of trying to sell it just through his acting alone.

The Bad:

-Danny Rand-He just was far less interesting than the other three main leads. He had no real presence to him. The writing/characterization on him was inconsistent at best. The fights scenes were meh, and he came across as an idiot and a crybaby at times. Its hard to know how much of it was the writing and how much was Finn's performance, but I just didn't end up caring much for him.
-A lot of the show was dull and boring, which is a huge failure in an IF show.
-The corporate stuff wasn't interesting at all, and the first four episodes felt largely superfluous.
-The villains, aside from Madame Gao, were pretty lame.
-The fights scenes were inconsistent in quality.
-They clearly didn't know exactly what to do with Joy Meachum's character. She was all over the place and that ending made no sense.
-They seemed afraid of the mystical stuff. Not showing Kun Lun until the very end, and how they did it, nor the dragon, was a hug mistake. And even the IF powers weren't nearly as impressive as they should have been.
-Etc.

The Mixed:

-Davos-He was kind of fun, but it retroactively makes Madame Gao having the Steel Serpent symbol on her heroin packets far less interesting and the explanation for that rather lame.

Overall, I'd give it a 5 or 6/10. It mostly is just boring and there's a ton of wasted potential (which is what disappoints me the most really).


Also Why didn't Claire call Daredevil? I know that they wanted this to be Danny's show, but heroes crossover into each other's movies all the time in the MCU. And they made this a problem by making The Hand the major threat. I get not calling Luke or Jessica, no issues there. But Matt has fought The Hand before, Claire knows him pretty well and that he's got skills, she knows about the Hand, and even Danny says that they need help. So why did it not occur to her to call her very skilled friend who has a big reason to want to take down The Hand (they killed Elektra after all)? And why did it not occur to Danny to say "hey why not call your friend, we could use his help?" Heck Claire even references Matt directly, and they could have easily written in an explanation for why Matt couldn't help out. But address it in SOME WAY!! Instead, SHE goes with them instead.

It's one of the few times that the "why didn't they call someone" thing has really bugged m

 

[Marvolo]

OK, my overall impressions of the show as a whole.

The Good:

-Colleen Wing-Yes her characterization got a bit wonky near the end, but overall she was still the best new character on the show. Daughters of the Dragon spinoff post-Defenders please Marvel.
-Seeing more of Claire and Hogarth is always welcome.
-Some of the fights scenes were good.
-Madame Gao-Yes retconning her to be a member of the Hand was eh (as was making her henchmen far less competent than they were in DD). But overall, she was really good and could project an impressive air of authority for such a seemingly frail old woman.
-Tom Pelphrey-I didn't care much for the writing of Ward Meachum as a character. But Tom did an impressive job of trying to sell it just through his acting alone.

The Bad:

-Danny Rand-He just was far less interesting than the other three main leads. He had no real presence to him. The writing/characterization on him was inconsistent at best. The fights scenes were meh, and he came across as an idiot and a crybaby at times. Its hard to know how much of it was the writing and how much was Finn's performance, but I just didn't end up caring much for him.
-A lot of the show was dull and boring, which is a huge failure in an IF show.
-The corporate stuff wasn't interesting at all, and the first four episodes felt largely superfluous.
-The villains, aside from Madame Gao, were pretty lame.
-The fights scenes were inconsistent in quality.
-They clearly didn't know exactly what to do with Joy Meachum's character. She was all over the place and that ending made no sense.
-They seemed afraid of the mystical stuff. Not showing Kun Lun until the very end, and how they did it, nor the dragon, was a hug mistake. And even the IF powers weren't nearly as impressive as they should have been.
-Etc.

The Mixed:

-Davos-He was kind of fun, but it retroactively makes Madame Gao having the Steel Serpent symbol on her heroin packets far less interesting and the explanation for that rather lame.

Overall, I'd give it a 5 or 6/10. It mostly is just boring and there's a ton of wasted potential (which is what disappoints me the most really).


Also Why didn't Claire call Daredevil? I know that they wanted this to be Danny's show, but heroes crossover into each other's movies all the time in the MCU. And they made this a problem by making The Hand the major threat. I get not calling Luke or Jessica, no issues there. But Matt has fought The Hand before, Claire knows him pretty well and that he's got skills, she knows about the Hand, and even Danny says that they need help. So why did it not occur to her to call her very skilled friend who has a big reason to want to take down The Hand (they killed Elektra after all)? And why did it not occur to Danny to say "hey why not call your friend, we could use his help?" Heck Claire even references Matt directly, and they could have easily written in an explanation for why Matt couldn't help out. But address it in SOME WAY!! Instead, SHE goes with them instead.

It's one of the few times that the "why didn't they call someone" thing has really bugged m

Iron Man 3 has this same logic problem. Freaking president is kidnapped and about to be burned on live tv by a fire breathing superhuman and Tony doesn't think to call and get help from SHIELD or Captain America? Hell, that Tony didn't immediately contact SHIELD or that SHIELD didn't immediately contact him after his house was destroyed is hard to buy. SHIELD would have wanted to hunt him down and confirm that he was alive or dead. But in IM3 SHIELD might as well not even exist.

Claire never thinking to ask Daredevil for help is equally weird and illogical.

 

[Loki882]

I mean you don't even need to have Matt actually appear. You could easily write in a scenario where he's just not available to help right now. Like for example, he's out of town trying to get Luke Cage out of prison or something. But address it in SOME WAY!!

And this wouldn't be a problem for me if, a. They didn't make The Hand the main threat here after also using them in DD, b. They didn't use Claire here as much as they did, and c. She didn't flat-out reference her "friend" who has fought The Hand before and Danny didn't mention possibly needing help.

They created a logical hole, where none needed to be by making those choices.

 

[chamber-music]

It looks like all these Marvel Netflix shows suffer from budget problems and what I don't understand is why all of them insist on doing 13 episode seasons? I think it's nearly unanimous that everyone thinks that 9-10 would suffice with telling these stories. They need to save money by cutting these episodes and using whatever extra money they can get from that by upping the quality of the episodes.

I think 13 episode seasons was that was part of the deal between Marvel and Netflix.

 

[Loki882]

This is honestly the first of these shows where the budget issues became really noticeable to me. The others did a better job of covering it up.

 

[javonstokess]

Totally agree about the "Claire plot hole". I probably would have limited her role in this show. Having her go toe-to-toe with highly trained Hand fighters and not die was too much of a stretch for me. Having a quick scene where she's calling Matt and he either isn't answering or is unavailable quickly solves that problem.

I mean, there is a great show buried in there somewhere.

I think for season two, I'd make these changes:

-Less of Danny in the boardroom and more of him working to make the city/world a better place.
-Absolutely HAVE to have Danny in uniform w/mask. Helps with fight scenes and, practically, he can't be running around beating up people as a billionaire CEO.
-I'd have the first 4-5 episodes tell one story (maybe a team up w/Shang Chi who schools Danny in aspects about his abilities) and the balance to involve K'un L'unn and the rest of the cities as well as the legacy behind the Iron Fist.
-WAY more fighting. Like 3x more than they had in the first season.
-the show's "style" should definitely show a love & celebration of the Asian culture.

 

[famicommander]

Having finished it,
Jessica Jones S1 >>>>>>>>> Daredevil S1 >>>> Daredevil S2 >>>>>>>>>>> Luke Cage S1 = Iron Fist

Started out horrible but got decent by the end.

Jessica Jones is the only one with a consistent and well developed theme running through the whole season. It dragged in the beginning and a little bit in the middle but at least most of the characters are coherent.

Luke Cage and both Daredevil seasons start out really strong, stall for a little while, and then sort of fail to tie it all together at the end.

 

[Paradox1]

This is honestly the first of these shows where the budget issues became really noticeable to me. The others did a better job of covering it up.

I think the budget for these shows has reared its ugly head in all these shows at one point or another. Especially in Luke Cage and Jessica Jones where the super strength is not really done that well in my opinion. In fact I don't think super strength is done well on tv in general.

 

[javonstokess]

I think the budget for these shows has reared its ugly head in all these shows at one point or another. Especially in Luke Cage and Jessica Jones where the super strength is not really done that well in my opinion. In fact I don't think super strength is done well on tv in general.

Just curious, but what was your issue with how their super strength was handled?

 

[Loki882]

Claire seem, somewhat OOC here as compared to her on the other shows at times.

Also while Jessica Henwick was consistently really good, I think that the actually writing for Colleen took noticeable dips in quality as the show went on.

 

[Marvolo]

Claire butting her way into Danny and Colleen's lunch at the dojo was awful and just awkward. Makes her look like a nosey intrusive person.

 

[Loki882]

It's weird because pretty much all of the characters that carry over from the other shows feel OOC at times. I think that it probably just comes down to the poor writing.

I mean I love Jessica Henwick here, but the writing for Colleen's character really starts to go downhill in the latter part of the season.

 

[scifiwolf]

So I'm just now wrapping up DD S1 again after having watched Iron Fist. I've also gone back and resampled Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. I didn't know what it was that was so disappointing about Iron Fist for me, just couldn't put finger on it.

Now I think I've got two things in mind. Obviously the writing has been (rightfully) criticized. It's more than that, though. Watching the other series, I'd say Iron Fist lacked top-to-bottom craftsmanship. DD, JJ, and LC have all been pinnacles of writing, producing, directing, acting, camera work, and music. Every time I revisit each of those shows since the first viewing, they're as equally gripping, as equally awe-inspiring as the first. I think I spent half of Iron Fist just browsing Facebook on my phone.

My second point is probably a big contributor to why Iron Fist could never get over the hump of craftsmanship, and that's identity. I never get a sense at any point that Iron Fist has any clue what it wants to be, who its characters are, and what its context is. Danny's motivations, and thus his journey, are so muddled and never fully explored. They're kind of thin, anyway. We're told about the burning to get home, the guilt he feels, but that's the problem. We're only told that, and briefly at the end. You'd never really get that through the first 80% of the season. Colleen and Claire, as has been stated in this thread, are wildly inconsistent, both from previously-established character beats and within this show. Ward is perhaps the best-written, and most well-acted character. I also hated that NYC loses its identity as a character. This may have well shot in Vancouver and saved a few bucks. Again, no identity. The fighting choreography was also not as advertised. I barely saw any great, Chinese-centric martial arts, and the opportunity for some really inventive wire fu was squandered. Instead, there was more brawling and less martial arts than even DD. Again, no sense of identity.

If, moving into Defenders and IF S2, the showrunners can map out what the components of the show need to be, and decide what the show is overall, I think that stronger sense of direction will bleed into the craftsmanship and we'll get an IF that stands toe-to-toe with the rest of not only the Marvel-Netflix shows, but Netflix shows in general.

 

[Loki882]

Here's the thing, they're trying to pull off something that's inherently very difficult. It's a show allegedly about Danny "discovering who he is." But, he's also already spent like 15 years in a monastery allegedly on a journey of self-discovery. Those two things don't really go together.

Not if it was leading him to say "well I don[t want to be that guy anymore," then fine. But the problem is, we don't really have a good sense of who he was before, because we don't get a good sense of what Kun Lun was really like. We never really see it, and people just talk about it in generalities, and they all have their own agendas. So it's hard to get a good idea of what it is or was like.

And also, I don't have a firm idea of what Danny truly wants even. He bounces around from place to place, but it doesn't seem to really go anywhere.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Claire butting her way into Danny and Colleen's lunch at the dojo was awful and just awkward. Makes her look like a nosey intrusive person.

It felt awkward to me as well. However I still enjoyed the show a lot!

 

[Paradox1]

Just curious, but what was your issue with how their super strength was handled?

Feats of super strength often look fake on tv. Like when they are smashing through rocks it often looks like foam to me.

 

[rogue trooper]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here's legendary comicbook writer Denny O'Neil's thoughts on the series and the Iron Fist costume: http://www.comicmix.com/2017/03/30/dennis-oneil-iron-fist-and-the-costume-unseen/

 

[Infinity9999x]

The Defenders is already gonna only be 8 episodes. I think it's a step in the right direction. None of these series have felt like they needed 13 episodes to tell their stories imo. There's always 1 or 2 episodes where you feel like WTF is this even doing here. As of now, there is too much stretching going on.

Yep. Even DD season 1 and JJ, the two best paced seasons, felt a bit too long. I'm happy to hear defenders is cutting it down to 8. Stranger Things felt really tight and focused with 8, and unless they think the story absolutely dictates more episodes, I'm always a supporter of less is more.

Heck, I'm only 3 episodes into Iron Fist and I already feel like they were needlessly wasting time.

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

I mean you don't even need to have Matt actually appear. You could easily write in a scenario where he's just not available to help right now. Like for example, he's out of town trying to get Luke Cage out of prison or something. But address it in SOME WAY!!

And this wouldn't be a problem for me if, a. They didn't make The Hand the main threat here after also using them in DD, b. They didn't use Claire here as much as they did, and c. She didn't flat-out reference her "friend" who has fought The Hand before and Danny didn't mention possibly needing help.

They created a logical hole, where none needed to be by making those choices.

Ehh. I don't think they needed to address Matt. Would it have been nice if they had? Sure. But given how DD S2 ended, one can easily assume that Claire didn't want to call Matt or get him involved. (It's more than plausible that he's still grieving.) In fact, Claire saying that it didn't end well for the last person who tried to take on the Hand is evidence in itself that she didn't really want to put Matt in such a position again. It's safe to say something will happen to change that but for this show, I think it was handled just fine.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think it's a crime that Madame Gao was relegated to the end credits (which I'm not sure anyone watches) instead of being listed at the beginning. Is it just because she's an unknown Asian actress with a non-western name (Wai Ching Ho)? She featured prominently throughout the season and gave a strong performance and deserved to be listed up there with the rest.

In fact, I notice now there's not even a Madame Gao thread.

Apparently she's guest starred in Law and Order in various roles a number of times, and particularly in Criminal Intent in episodes it seems that Vincent D'Onofrio has played in.

 

[Marvel]

Finished it and it was good at times but should have been GREAT.

The character development was VERY clumsy all the way through. That and the lack of good choreographed action is the most disappointing and frustrating part of the season. The characters are in place and I really like the cast. Given better writers and probably a better show runner this could be epic in the seasons that follow. There was no reason to have Danny come across as this underdeveloped and to have the shallow nature of most of their arcs.

Still, a 6.5 or 7 out of 10 quality show isn't exactly the travesty some want to make it out to be.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I honestly don't think I'll finish the show. It's interesting, I was talking about this with a friend earlier...but while Iron Fist isn't good, it's not horrible. It never gets as bad as say...the worst episodes of Arrow, in which that show delved into horrible convoluted nonsensical writing, low CW-production value budget, and soap opera style acting. However...at least when Arrow was bad, it was still entertaining in a "wow this is so ridiculous at least I can watch and kind of laugh at it" bad.

Iron Fist never got that bad, but it maintained enough quality to not be good, AND be boring. And I've found that this actually seems to be worse. It's harder for me to watch Iron Fist than a bad episode of Arrow. Now, granted, I stopped watching Arrow mid-way through Season 4. But I still sat through all of Season 3 and half of S4 before it got to be too much for me. I got through eight episodes of Iron Fist...and I have no desire to continue because it's just SO. DAMN. BORING.

So, weirdly, being kind of bad but boring is actually worse than really bad but so stupid it's somewhat entertaining.