Iron Fist Iron Fist SEASON TWO Discussion Thread (NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!)

[Spider-Fan]

I guess...there's certainly story potential there for LC if anyone realized it

Are the netflix shows still bound by 2012 timeframe? Was brought up on the Lounge - why is the "snap" no big deal? Accords is w/e for me, since there's only one costumed dude.

On the front of the snap, we at this moment do not know how this all gets resolved. Loeb I know has said the shows take place before that. Even if the timelines cross the moment it happens, we don't know how Avengers 4 ends. It is very possible the Avengers prevent it from ever happening, therefore no effect to the show characters. At least not in the timeline we're seeing on screen as we would have to assume we're watching the corrected timeline.

 

[TheVileOne]

Again, how so? How has the movie world conflicted with the Netflix world? Please give me specific examples.

Well for starters, there doesn't seem to be any interest in exploring the legalities and regularities of outed enhanced individuals or heroes walking around New York pertaining to the likes of SHIELD or the federal government, post Registration.

 

[Random490]

I think we know at this point that the whole "it's all connected thing" is nothing but lip service at this point. Netflix is essentially treated as a separate universe at this point.

If I recall correctly the whole "it's all connected" line was one thing said by Loeb to indicate the AoS was taking place in the same universe since there were a lot of confusion about it. It was the first mcu show made. And even though that season had numerous connections with Winter Soldiers there have been many interviews stating that they don't want the shows to simply serve as a mcu easter egg hunt but stand on their own. Any mentions about crossing over with movies are always "it's possible, nothing legal preventing it" No one ever made the guarantee or promise that it was going to happen. Too many fans read "it's all connected" as meaning "This is all one part of a master inter-connective narrative that culminates in Avengers 3 even though it hasn't been written and directors haven't been hired and it's still 5 years off." instead of "It's in the same universe" which I believe was the intention.

I guess...there's certainly story potential there for LC if anyone realized it

Are the netflix shows still bound by 2012 timeframe? Was brought up on the Lounge - why is the "snap" no big deal? Accords is w/e for me, since there's only one costumed dude.

According to Loeb, all the shows take place before Infinity War. That's all we got to go on.

It's a minor role in the movie. She's in literally 1 scene. It's not like she played another prominent character.

Also two different productions, from two different departments, operating under two different time tables. Things falls through the cracks.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well for starters, there doesn't seem to be any interest in exploring the legalities and regularities of outed enhanced individuals or heroes walking around New York pertaining to the likes of SHIELD or the federal government, post Registration.

But we know the Raft exists, so a reference to the Accords in Netflix exists by virtue of that reference to the Raft. Just because the show has not outlined how the Accords effects a civilian doesn't mean it's not connected. At the end of the day, these shows exist for the same reason the movies do: to tell a story. They don't exist simply to shed light on things a movie doesn't explain. What we needed to know about Accords in relation to Jessica Jones was that her mother's actions would send her to the Raft. That's what the story was focused around. Jessica Jones doesn't exist to explain the Accords within the Netflix world. This is where I feel most of this "It's not really connected" stuff comes from a disappointment of people not getting the Easter Eggs they want. But that is not the show's primary function. The primary function is to tell a story. Comics do this same thing. How did the events of the Infinity Gauntlet change crime in New York City for the Punisher? Comics never go into that. Is that a failing on the part of the Punisher, or was that just not the story the comics were telling?

 

[TheVileOne]

Spider-Fan, I will give you an example of a lost opportunity.

At the end of Daredevil Season 2, Jeryn Hogarth seemed to be hinting at legal opportunities with the emerging whole enhanced superheroes and vigilantes thing. Were they going to maybe start representing vigilantes or maybe even consider finding legal opportunities with enhanced people? Maybe I'm misreading Hogarth's scene with Foggy, but it seemed to hint at that.

I feel like they could've done something to address the Accords and trying to enforce those laws on a local national level. And then Foggy and Hogarth come in because even if these individuals have powers and are arguably more dangerous than the average human, they are still human beings and US citizens, so they are entitled to their legal rights.

I feel like there should've been some lip service about "accords are being enforced on this yadda yadda yadda," and then Hogarth's law firm comes in and says, "BS that's unconstitutional. Give my clients this and this."

I feel like they could've done more to exploit the IT'S ALL CONNECTED nonsense.

Also, Coulson should've visited the Defenders at least once.

 

[TheVileOne]

If I recall correctly the whole "it's all connected" line was one thing said by Loeb to indicate the AoS was taking place in the same universe since there were a lot of confusion about it. It was the first mcu show made. And even though that season had numerous connections with Winter Soldiers there have been many interviews stating that they don't want the shows to simply serve as a mcu easter egg hunt but stand on their own. Any mentions about crossing over with movies are always "it's possible, nothing legal preventing it" No one ever made the guarantee or promise that it was going to happen. Too many fans read "it's all connected" as meaning "This is all one part of a master inter-connective narrative that culminates in Avengers 3 even though it hasn't been written and directors haven't been hired and it's still 5 years off." instead of "It's in the same universe" which I believe was the intention.


According to Loeb, all the shows take place before Infinity War. That's all we got to go on.

Also two different productions, from two different departments, operating under two different time tables. Things falls through the cracks.

No it became his catch-all answer to everything regarding MCU on TV.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I will say this about Loeb, he is very good at sticking to his answer. Sometimes the show has greater connection and he doesn't play it up with specific statements. Other times, there's clearly no connection and he doesn't change his answer. He's obviously a veteran of dealing with projects that haven't been released yet where he's not allowed to spoil too much, but he's still quite effective in his job.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Spider-Fan, I will give you an example of a lost opportunity.

At the end of Daredevil Season 2, Jeryn Hogarth seemed to be hinting at legal opportunities with the emerging whole enhanced superheroes and vigilantes thing. Were they going to maybe start representing vigilantes or maybe even consider finding legal opportunities with enhanced people? Maybe I'm misreading Hogarth's scene with Foggy, but it seemed to hint at that.

I feel like they could've done something to address the Accords and trying to enforce those laws on a local national level. And then Foggy and Hogarth come in because even if these individuals have powers and are arguably more dangerous than the average human, they are still human beings and US citizens, so they are entitled to their legal rights.

I feel like there should've been some lip service about "accords are being enforced on this yadda yadda yadda," and then Hogarth's law firm comes in and says, "BS that's unconstitutional. Give my clients this and this."

I feel like they could've done more to exploit the IT'S ALL CONNECTED nonsense.

Also, Coulson should've visited the Defenders at least once.

Why? SHIELD doesn't deal with local mob bosses. It's a needless distraction to the story. The Netflix shows are basically extended movies. Something like Coulson doesn't advance that narrative. Again, these shows are primarily made to tell a story first.

As for your Accords point, the Accords within the confines of Captain America: Civil War seemed to deal with groups like the Avengers operating on their own in foreign countries and such. The Defenders are local heroes. It is never stated anywhere within Civil War or really any other MCU property that it applies at a local level. Remember, it's a document crafted by a United Nations Committee. The UN cannot write US law. Therefore the Defenders are just likely treated as vigilantes. The only thing we get that is any hint it applies at a local level is with Jessica's mother, but we don't know if that is an Accords matter or a matter of recent US law regarding people with powers. So again, this seems like a matter of not getting the easter eggs you wanted as opposed to it conflicting with anything story related.

 

[TheVileOne]

Why? SHIELD doesn't deal with local mob bosses. It's a needless distraction to the story. The Netflix shows are basically extended movies. Something like Coulson doesn't advance that narrative. Again, these shows are primarily made to tell a story first.

As for your Accords point, the Accords within the confines of Captain America: Civil War seemed to deal with groups like the Avengers operating on their own in foreign countries and such. The Defenders are local heroes. It is never stated anywhere within Civil War or really any other MCU property that it applies at a local level. Remember, it's a document crafted by a United Nations Committee. The UN cannot write US law. Therefore the Defenders are just likely treated as vigilantes. The only thing we get that is any hint it applies at a local level is with Jessica's mother, but we don't know if that is an Accords matter or a matter of recent US law regarding people with powers. So again, this seems like a matter of not getting the easter eggs you wanted as opposed to it conflicting with anything story related.

Why not?

The Accords in Agents of SHIELD are said to be a framework for registering "every enhanced individual."

 

[Spider-Fan]

Why not?

The Accords in Agents of SHIELD are said to be a framework for registering "every enhanced individual."

But again, it seems to deal in international situation. Fighting gangsters in New York is not exactly an Accords situation.

 

[TheVileOne]

But again, it seems to deal in international situation. Fighting gangsters in New York is not exactly an Accords situation.

Then they shouldn't have said that on Agents of SHIELD. It's misleading. And it also makes Cap's refusal to sign them even more questionable and ridiculous. He should not be unwilling to compromise with the United Nations on some type of oversight, especially when his team was involved in a fight that saw innocent people get killed in collateral damage. It's both foolish and moronic.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Then they shouldn't have said that on Agents of SHIELD. It's misleading. And it also makes Cap's refusal to sign them even more questionable and ridiculous. He should not be unwilling to compromise with the United Nations on some type of oversight, especially when his team was involved in a fight that saw innocent people get killed in collateral damage. It's both foolish and moronic.

Ross never mentioned how it effected vigilantes like the Defenders. Especially when a guy like Daredevil they honestly have no evidence is an enhanced. The only threat that maybe could have been large enough to fall under the jurisdiction of the Accords arguably was the Defenders, but the Hand operated in the shadows beyond anyone's notice and the incident itself no one wanted to acknowledge due to problematic PR. So there has not been a season really where the Accords were an issue. The Accords are not really for fighting garden variety gangsters and mob bosses. That's not a UN issue.

 

[TheVileOne]

Ross never mentioned how it effected vigilantes like the Defenders. Especially when a guy like Daredevil they honestly have no evidence is an enhanced. The only threat that maybe could have been large enough to fall under the jurisdiction of the Accords arguably was the Defenders, but the Hand operated in the shadows beyond anyone's notice and the incident itself no one wanted to acknowledge due to problematic PR. So there has not been a season really where the Accords were an issue. The Accords are not really for fighting garden variety gangsters and mob bosses. That's not a UN issue.

It was a framework to register all enhanced individuals. So there were clearly plans. The US opted in. So there had to be some enforcement. Otherwise, it's just a flimsy set of accords and Captain America not signing them makes him look like more of an *******.

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones were also both publicly outed and known to the press.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It was a framework to register all enhanced individuals. So there were clearly plans. The US opted in. So there had to be some enforcement. Otherwise, it's just a flimsy set of accords and Captain America not signing them makes him look like more of an *******.

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones were also both publicly outed and known to the press.

But again, Jessica is a PI and Luke is a dude from Harlem. They fight local gangsters and at worst are vigilantes. Again, not exactly Accords material here.

 

[Random490]

But we know the Raft exists, so a reference to the Accords in Netflix exists by virtue of that reference to the Raft. Just because the show has not outlined how the Accords effects a civilian doesn't mean it's not connected. At the end of the day, these shows exist for the same reason the movies do: to tell a story. They don't exist simply to shed light on things a movie doesn't explain. What we needed to know about Accords in relation to Jessica Jones was that her mother's actions would send her to the Raft. That's what the story was focused around. Jessica Jones doesn't exist to explain the Accords within the Netflix world. This is where I feel most of this "It's not really connected" stuff comes from a disappointment of people not getting the Easter Eggs they want. But that is not the show's primary function. The primary function is to tell a story. Comics do this same thing. How did the events of the Infinity Gauntlet change crime in New York City for the Punisher? Comics never go into that. Is that a failing on the part of the Punisher, or was that just not the story the comics were telling?

There's nothing indicating that The Raft and the Accords are connected, just that they were two aspects of this world introduced in the same movie. The Raft was made and operational before the Accords were signed. I think the shows currently operate under the assumption that they take place before the current state of the MCU. So for all we know Age of Ultron hasn't even happened yet, which I think is a better way to operate in the long run than AoS did. Also the Accords is an international agreement and likely wouldn't cover private citizen. Plus it's likely each country has their own domestic policies. It's not like the comics, again this is left intentionally vague but given all we do know the biggest effect the Accords have on Luke and Jessica is that their put on a list for enhanced and would have to follow existing laws on vigilantism.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There's nothing indicating that The Raft and the Accords are connected, just that they were two aspects of this world introduced in the same movie. The Raft was made and operational before the Accords were signed. I think the shows currently operate under the assumption that they take place before the current state of the MCU. So for all we know Age of Ultron hasn't even happened yet, which I think is a better way to operate in the long run than AoS did. Also the Accords is an international agreement and likely wouldn't cover private citizen. Plus it's likely each country has their own domestic policies. It's not like the comics, again this is left intentionally vague but given all we do know the biggest effect the Accords have on Luke and Jessica is that their put on a list for enhanced and would have to follow existing laws on vigilantism.

Pretty much, but I do think that a few people fighting local gangsters is not exactly going to be the highest item on the Accords agenda, considering larger issues they have to deal with. I doubt they overtly care about such low level vigilantes.

 

[BarryAllen]

I don't get what some people's deal is on this whole Marvel TV vs movies honestly. Yeah, they don't cross over. It's all MCU. Nobody who has these shows is getting a reboot into the movies, guys. So Iron Fist failed as a series, evident because it was cancelled after 2 seasons. Why would anyone think that he would work as a movie if they couldn't sell him as a show and he was met with backlash from day 1?

Not every characters is going to shake hands with Iron Man. But guys like the Netflix heroes don't have to. They deal with smaller scale threats. It works perfectly fine. Plus, some of the content the shows produce, like Daredevil and Jessica Jones (at least season 1...since season 2 is divisive) are better than a fair % of the movies!

Because better people who care about the source material with bigger budgets would be working on the character? The same way Hulk and Spidey had mediocre movies prior and Fiege was still able to make incarnations that people really liked.

The problem isn't the character. It's the terrible writing and casting and fight scenes. If Guardians of the Galaxy or Doctor Strange can work in the movies, a Iron Fist/Power Man and Iron Fist movie can work just as well. They really don't fit this Netflix realm.

I completely agree. None of these shows were designed, created or promoted that they would crossover with the movies, just that it would take place in the same fictional universe using character that weren't going to get movies. It's not like Marvel Studios was waiting for Iron Fist to become available, if they wanted to to make it a movie it would already have been a movie. If they wanted any of the Defenders in Infinity War, then they would have been there. Whether the Netflix series existed or not, whether they were better or not, or even had a different cast nothing wouldn't have changed that.

Fiege has been talking for a long time how he likes the Immortal Iron Fist run and wants to make an Iron Fist movie....

The last part of the statment is disingenuous because they have to pace the movies. Just because Eternals is coming after Infinity War doesn't mean they never wanted to make an Eternals movie. See Ant-Man.

Iron Fist doesn't work on these low budget Netflix shows where they are ashamed of more mystical or comic looking elements. Iron Fist is more akin to a Thor or Black Panther than anything else.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Because better people who care about the source material with bigger budgets would be working on the character? The same way Hulk and Spidey had mediocre movies prior and Fiege was still able to make incarnations that people really liked.

The problem isn't the character. It's the terrible writing and casting and fight scenes. If Guardians of the Galaxy or Doctor Strange can work in the movies, a Iron Fist/Power Man and Iron Fist movie can work just as well. They really don't fit this Netflix realm.

Regardless of where we feel the show may or may not have gone wrong, the fact is the Iron Fist property is not worth what it was. The show was cancelled after 2 seasons. Much like Inhumans (though not quite to that level) that hurts the Iron Fist brand name. Marvel Studios like any entity wants to make money. They won't make a movie they feel will lose money. Iron Fist at this moment is not showing me confidence that he can be a BO success. This is not something Kevin Feige would ignore. He's a geek, but he's still a producer. Remember, if Feige was keen on an Iron Fist film, he would never have been outsourced to Netflix at all. He would have been on the slate somewhere or Feige would have vetoed it.

At this point Iron Fist's future will be 1 of 3 things:

1 - Supporting character on Netflix shows and effectively being the Netflix version of Hulk
2 - Get a new season on Hulu or something later down the line (this is my least likely option).
3 - They will freeze the character and just not use him for the foreseeable future.

I am very certain Iron Fist's future is one of these 3. He is not getting a movie (unless it is some type of direct to streaming movie in lieu of a 3rd season type that acts as an end for the series on another streaming service like Hulu). But theatrical film with a 100+ mil budget? Not a chance.

 

[BarryAllen]

Regardless of where we feel the show may or may not have gone wrong, the fact is the Iron Fist property is not worth what it was. The show was cancelled after 2 seasons. Much like Inhumans (though not quite to that level) that hurts the Iron Fist brand name. Marvel Studios like any entity wants to make money. They won't make a movie they feel will lose money.

Yeah the Iron Fist brand is tarnished now, but I don't think it's going to be forever. I think the brand is much more flexible than Inhumans. I don't have hopes for Iron Fist getting a movie anytime soon, but give it another 5-7 years and he can be rehabilitated. Not many people watched the show to even have a dent on a potential future movie.

Iron Fist at this moment is not showing me confidence that he can be a BO success

Nothing that relates to the show tanking has anything due to Iron Fist as the comic character in any fashion. The portrayal and characterization of him, lack of fight scenes, stripping the mythos and supporting cast, poor writing is more on the show than on anything else.

How is comics Iron Fist any different than the typical MCU protagonist? What would make him less of a BO success than Black Panther or Spiderman or Star-Lord? He has the personality, action scenes, lore, etc to make a good movie.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah the Iron Fist brand is tarnished now, but I don't think it's going to be forever. I think the brand is much more flexible than Inhumans. I don't have hopes for Iron Fist getting a movie anytime soon, but give it another 5-7 years and he can be rehabilitated. Not many people watched the show to even have a dent on a potential future movie.



Nothing that relates to the show tanking has anything due to Iron Fist as the comic character in any fashion. The portrayal and characterization of him, lack of fight scenes, stripping the mythos and supporting cast, poor writing is more on the show than on anything else.

How is comics Iron Fist any different than the typical MCU protagonist? What would make him less of a BO success than Black Panther or Spiderman or Star-Lord? He has the personality, action scenes, lore, etc to make a good movie.

Look at what happened when Finn Jones was cast: immediately this was met with backlash, and that was for them keeping it comic accurate. He's a character that is a harder sell for that reason. If you keep honest to the comic, it's an outdated white savior story that gets PR backlash. If you race change him and make too many changes, fanboys complain. This is not an issue something like Black Panther or Spider-Man had. Also, this show was bad. You have to prove to people the concept is better than the show. It's an uphill battle. I don't see him getting a movie basically ever.

 

[jignat]

I just finished Iron Fist Season 2.

Pros:

Much better fight choreography/scenes compared to S1
Danny is 20% less annoying
the relationship between Colleen and Misty
Ward's character growth
10 episodes was a good length.

Cons:
Typhoid Mary seemed a bit superfluous in the grand scheme. Her acting as Mary and Walker was good, but I wish she was more tied to the main plot.

Joy being a reluctant "villain" struck me as weird at the end of S1, and was right. Her motives seemed weak. Yes, she lost her father and regained him in a perverse way.and Ward was a dick, but I dont buy it .Also, I'm surprised Davos didn't go full Mortal Kombat on her lol. Now that the show is cancelled, I wonder what they would have her do in S3 if Ward/Danny would be bumming around Asia. Also, I think its funny that Danny doesn't really mention or visit Joy in the final episode lol.
Overall: IF S2 7.5/10
IF S1 6.5/10