Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The casting controversy was odd. It's led to weird things too, like people saying the character was white washed...when he's always been white. The debate go really weird in some spots.

 

[kguillou]

I'm very curious to see what the critics mean by "slow" as well. For me, as long as the characters and actors are interesting, I'm never bored. DD has some of the longest dialogue scenes ever but those scenes fly by, for me, because I'm engaged by the actors and the dialogue. I could watch Charlie Cox talk to that Priest character for a whole episode if I had to. If the actors in this are bland and uncharismatic like DD and JJ then I could see this being a problem.

 

[McSir]

I'm very curious to see what the critics mean by "slow" as well. For me, as long as the characters and actors are interesting, I'm never bored. DD has some of the longest dialogue scenes ever but those scenes fly by, for me, because I'm engaged by the actors and the dialogue. I could watch Charlie Cox talk to that Priest character for a whole episode if I had to. If the actors in this are bland and uncharismatic like DD and JJ then I could see this being a problem.

Well, a bunch of characters sitting in a board room talking about the specifics of an undefined company and who gets how much money isn't terribly interesting just two to three episodes in. If you haven't formed a bond to the characters you're not going to care about the outcome. One of the main criticisms I've seen is that Rand, Inc. is depicted very vaguely in terms of what it does. A bunch of people sitting around a table talking about it doesn't sound terribly gripping.

 

[Darepool]

 

[Dark Raven]

Well, a bunch of characters sitting in a board room talking about the specifics of an undefined company and who gets how much money isn't terribly interesting just two to three episodes in. If you haven't formed a bond to the characters you're not going to care about the outcome. One of the main criticisms I've seen is that Rand, Inc. is depicted very vaguely in terms of what it does. A bunch of people sitting around a table talking about it doesn't sound terribly gripping.

If people want to see extended scenes of board meetings, they should just put in some overtime at work and volunteer to sit and take minutes.

 

[Darepool]

edit.

 

[kguillou]

Well, a bunch of characters sitting in a board room talking about the specifics of an undefined company and who gets how much money isn't terribly interesting just two to three episodes in. If you haven't formed a bond to the characters you're not going to care about the outcome. One of the main criticisms I've seen is that Rand, Inc. is depicted very vaguely in terms of what it does. A bunch of people sitting around a table talking about it doesn't sound terribly gripping.

Oh jeez. That does sound horrible. Wtf were they thinking? No. That has to be deliberate for some reason. There has to be a reason for such boring scenes...right?

 

[Dark Raven]

Scott Buck should've hired Tom Welling to star. He could've had a "no tights, no fights" rule.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

Oh jeez. That does sound horrible. Wtf were they thinking? No. That has to be deliberate for some reason. There has to be a reason for such boring scenes...right?

not necessarily. netflix are owed 13 episodes even if there isn't enough story/budget to fill it.

all of the previous netflix marvel shows could have been a few eps shorter and sounds like iron fist might be the worst culprit of needless bloat and glacial pacing.

 

[McSir]

not necessarily. netflix are owed 13 episodes even if there isn't enough story/budget to fill it.

all of the previous netflix marvel shows could have been a few eps shorter and sounds like iron fist might be the worst culprit of needless bloat and glacial pacing.

Ten episode seasons would work so much better. The only series that I think hasn't suffered from the slump is Jessica Jones, but even then there were things that could have been consolidated.

Luke Cage and the first season of Daredevil had a lot of flab that could have gotten cut.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Has anyone seen The Fall? Specifically, season three. That show spends an inordinate amount of time with a slow paced surgery scene. It's very realistic, but it's hard to imagine how it contributes to the plot beyond atmosphere. I know Season Three was a step down from an otherwise fascinating show, but I still ended up enjoying it. When you watch the entire season (thankfully six episodes) in one sitting, things like that bother me less.

 

[Darepool]

I don't mind the slow boil, it really immerses you in the world presented but I generally can't watch more then 3 episodes consecutively with that kind of pace. I'm simpatico with the view these seasons could be shorter, but that's a minor gripe. I hope in the future Marvel doesn't have a set number of episodes in mind, the episode count should all depend on the writers ability to tell the best story possible.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think being fair, the last seven episodes could very well redeem what we saw in the first six, but just by some of Scott Buck's statements, I dunno.

I think the first six weren't even that bad, it's just that the plot meanders around and we don't get to the really cool stuff until episode six really.

But honestly, why can't we get a costume? I know, grounded gritty realism. I get it. But he's still Iron Fist. This is still a Marvel Comic show is it not right? Why do we hate costumes and masks now? I just don't get it.

Here is my point. These characters are symbols and icons. They wear costumes and sport symbols because it means something. It means their brand stands for something. They are trying to not just be inspirations but they are trying to stand for something as well. Characters wear the costumes for a reason. Moon Knight wears white for a reason. The dude's a little kooky and he doesn't mind taking a hit. He wants the bad guys to come straight for him. He wants them to see him coming Again, the guy has a screw loose.

Heroes wear costumes because they are heroes. They aren't just joe vigilante off the street. The costumes mean they are something more than average vigilante. They are something greater.

 

[Dark Raven]

Has anyone seen The Fall? Specifically, season three. That show spends an inordinate amount of time with a slow paced surgery scene. It's very realistic, but it's hard to imagine how it contributes to the plot beyond atmosphere. I know Season Three was a step down from an otherwise fascinating show, but I still ended up enjoying it. When you watch the entire season (thankfully six episodes) in one sitting, things like that bother me less.

One episode of that would bore me let alone six. I couldn't watch 6 episodes of just a surgery. I'd either start surfing the web or fall asleep during one. Many other viewers would be restless too or so restful they'd pass out.

 

[Dasher10]

I don't mind the slow boil, it really immerses you in the world presented but I generally can't watch more then 3 episodes consecutively with that kind of pace. I'm simpatico with the view these seasons could be shorter, but that's a minor gripe. I hope in the future Marvel doesn't have a set number of episodes in mind, the episode count should all depend on the writers ability to tell the best story possible.

Blame Scott Buck. All the reviewers so far seem to blame him for everything that went wrong. And Jeph Loeb saw his work and then hired him for a second TV series. And it isn't like Defenders where it shoots when Daredevil isn't. This is giving Scott Buck twice the workload so he can ruin another Marvel franchise.

Here's the thing. Iron Fist was always a hard sell. The character is seeped in Orientalism and cultural appropriation no matter what you do with him since he represents an American take on Chinese culture. (The fact that a major character is named Lei-Kung instead of Kung-Lei when Kung is a Chinese surname and Chinese names put the surname name first and given name second tells you all you have to know when Marvel butchering Chinese culture. To be fair to Marvel, they were even worse with Russians.) If you cast a white guy, you wind up with the Mighty Whitey trope. If you cast an Asian guy, you run into some seriously uncomfortable stereotyping.

But even with the cultural baggage of the character, Marvel still could have done an amazing series if they actually had a competent showrunner. Instead, they picked the absolute worst person they could find who mismanaged everything at every level... and then made him the most powerful showrunner at Marvel Studios. He stopped the Defenders momentum right when it seemed unstoppable and now seems be doing the same to the cosmic side of Marvel right between Guardians 2 and Infinity War.

Most importantly, Scott Buck seemed to be embarrassed by the source material. He was literally so scared to make a wuxia series, that he created an office drama instead. No costume. No wirework. No connections to other properties aside from Claire Temple.

There was no way to make a culturally sensitive Iron Fist, but the oft described scene where Danny tells Colleen that her Mandarin is wrong seems like Scott Buck and company wanted to play up how dated the concept is. When handed the title, Chris Claremont worked hard to make Iron Fist less offensive and the Brubaker/Fraction team doubled down on trying to to make an Iron Fist that wouldn't alienate the audience. Iron Fist can be done well, but Scott Buck decided to do everything possible to make audiences hate an already divisive character.

So I won't be watching Inhumans. I know that it's going to be a trainwreck. Scott Buck is no David E. Kelly. He's the Antichrist of the TV world who's now ready to take the MCU down with him. No wonder this guy doesn't have a Twitter account.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Blame Scott Buck. All the reviewers so far seem to blame him for everything that went wrong. And Jeph Loeb saw his work and then hired him for a second TV series. And it isn't like Defenders where it shoots when Daredevil isn't. This is giving Scott Buck twice the workload so he can ruin another Marvel franchise.

Here's the thing. Iron Fist was always a hard sell. The character is seeped in Orientalism and cultural appropriation no matter what you do with him since he represents an American take on Chinese culture. (The fact that a major character is named Lei-Kung instead of Kung-Lei when Kung is a Chinese surname and Chinese names put the surname name first and given name second tells you all you have to know when Marvel butchering Chinese culture. To be fair to Marvel, they were even worse with Russians.) If you cast a white guy, you wind up with the Mighty Whitey trope. If you cast an Asian guy, you run into some seriously uncomfortable stereotyping.

But even with the cultural baggage of the character, Marvel still could have done an amazing series if they actually had a competent showrunner. Instead, they picked the absolute worst person they could find who mismanaged everything at every level... and then made him the most powerful showrunner at Marvel Studios. He stopped the Defenders momentum right when it seemed unstoppable and now seems be doing the same to the cosmic side of Marvel right between Guardians 2 and Infinity War.

Most importantly, Scott Buck seemed to be embarrassed by the source material. He was literally so scared to make a wuxia series, that he created an office drama instead. No costume. No wirework. No connections to other properties aside from Claire Temple.

There was no way to make a culturally sensitive Iron Fist, but the oft described scene where Danny tells Colleen that her Mandarin is wrong seems like Scott Buck and company wanted to play up how dated the concept is. When handed the title, Chris Claremont worked hard to make Iron Fist less offensive and the Brubaker/Fraction team doubled down on trying to to make an Iron Fist that wouldn't alienate the audience. Iron Fist can be done well, but Scott Buck decided to do everything possible to make audiences hate an already divisive character.

So I won't be watching Inhumans. I know that it's going to be a trainwreck. Scott Buck is no David E. Kelly. He's the Antichrist of the TV world who's now ready to take the MCU down with him. No wonder this guy doesn't have a Twitter account.

Way to let the reviews decide for you

 

[Dasher10]

Way to let the reviews decide for you

If I hear good word of mouth that the second half of Iron Fist, then I'll give Iron Fist a chance and possibly also Inhumans.

 

[Heretic]

Comic fans should understand that some properties SHOULD be completely overhauled when relaunching them.

Aquaman, for example, SHOULD by Polynesian...where their culture, even religion, is historically based around the ocean. I thought that a blonde, white Aquaman was stupid when I was a kid. We are (hopefully) past the era where characters are created as white because that is what the plurality of the consumer base is.

As it stands, not only are we getting the tired "white savior in a foreign land/culture" story...we also get the "presumed dead billionaire returns to reclaim his family business" story that we got in Arrow and Batman Begins. It doesn't matter how much of that story existed in the comics...they should have torn the concept down and rebuilt it as something new before the world at large developed any ideas about what an Iron Fist even is.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

man, if i struggled to get through luke cage i dunno how i'll go if iron fist is as bad as they say.

 

[Dark Raven]

Comic fans should understand that some properties SHOULD be completely overhauled when relaunching them.

Aquaman, for example, SHOULD by Polynesian...where their culture, even religion, is historically based around the ocean. I thought that a blonde, white Aquaman was stupid when I was a kid. We are (hopefully) past the era where characters are created as white because that is what the plurality of the consumer base is.

As it stands, not only are we getting the tired "white savior in a foreign land/culture" story...we also get the "presumed dead billionaire returns to reclaim his family business" story that we got in Arrow and Batman Begins. It doesn't matter how much of that story existed in the comics...they should have torn the concept down and rebuilt it as something new before the world at large developed any ideas about what an Iron Fist even is.

They should've changed it to "presumed alive pauper leaves to escape his friend's hobbies." But after 12 and a bit deathly slow episodes, we realize he's actually dead in the last 15 minutes of episode 13. Then he finally gets his costume: a white sheet draped over his body.

 

[Pokkle]

man, if i struggled to get through luke cage i dunno how i'll go if iron fist is as bad as they say.

Mark Cassidy liked Iron Fist more than Luke Cage.
https://***********/RorMachine/status/839483383373770752

I liked Luke Cage but it's hard to imagine, it would be worse than Diamondback.

 

[Mike Murdock]

If I hear good word of mouth that the second half of Iron Fist, then I'll give Iron Fist a chance and possibly also Inhumans.

What if Inhumans gets good reviews?

 

[RaidenX]

Jessica Henwicks interview


....

She mentions fighting is getting better as show goes on...and she has amazing katana fight in episode 8

So i think that second half of the series will be great

 

[Zarex]

Comic fans should understand that some properties SHOULD be completely overhauled when relaunching them.

Aquaman, for example, SHOULD by Polynesian...where their culture, even religion, is historically based around the ocean. I thought that a blonde, white Aquaman was stupid when I was a kid. We are (hopefully) past the era where characters are created as white because that is what the plurality of the consumer base is.

As it stands, not only are we getting the tired "white savior in a foreign land/culture" story...we also get the "presumed dead billionaire returns to reclaim his family business" story that we got in Arrow and Batman Begins. It doesn't matter how much of that story existed in the comics...they should have torn the concept down and rebuilt it as something new before the world at large developed any ideas about what an Iron Fist even is.

It may be that Loeb and company did this one more out of contractual obligation than the fact that they had a great story to tell. There were many rumors floating around pre-production that the show was going to be canceled, and it may have made sense to swap Punisher into this slot and introduce Iron Fist during the Defenders mini series.

This show had multiple strikes against it going in, and an Asian or mixed race lead would have helped with the concerns about cultural appropriation and given the MCU the male Asian hero they are sorely lacking. Elodie Yung and Chloe Bennett have worked out well imo in their respective roles.

 

[terry78]

Basically if I wanted to watch Suits, I'd watch Suits.