Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

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True, though I think for some it is, and others it's not. Superman being white with black hair, and the spit curl, feels like it's part of his creators Jewish roots. Bruce Wayne comes from old money, and is part of Gotham's social elite. Old money and social elitism...is white.

I don't think that means that you can't stick to the source material, though. Getting angry at Jones being cast as Danny because of his race seems a bit far to me.


That gets to the point of change in our society. Old money becomes 'new money' and not all new money is white. Superman's curl and 'feeling' like it ties to the creators Jewish roots would not hold up in court if those we're the arguments made as to why it couldn't or shouldn't happen. I'm not expecting any dramatic changes in the future, I'm just saying some people will make the argument. This particular situation came up because of an outdated narrative trope, which I don't think applies here anyway.
 
EW review, minor spoilers:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/10/iron-fist-ew-review/

cuban.gif


I'm still on the binge train and will reserve judgment till the final episode, but that was pretty damn brutal.
 
That gets to the point of change in our society. Old money becomes 'new money' and not all new money is white. Superman's curl and 'feeling' like it ties to the creators Jewish roots would not hold up in court if those we're the arguments made as to why it couldn't or shouldn't happen. I'm not expecting any dramatic changes in the future, I'm just saying some people will make the argument. This particular situation came up because of an outdated narrative trope, which I don't think applies here anyway.

I mean, if we're taking this court then there's no reason to keep anything the way it is.

I can't see 'old money' changing in my lifetime, so I think if Bruce Wayne is supposed to be the prince of Gotham and part of the elite class, him being white seems like it has to keep. Him being old money is entirely about his family, and how far back the Wayne's go with being rich and social elites. People of color know that even you have money, and are part of the elite class...you still get knocked down a peg. There's plenty of examples of wealthy and high social status people of color still being pulled over by the police or being arrested in their own homes.

Now, I've never ever seen anyone else make the argument for Superman that I just made. Other than his biblical inspiration, there's nothing really else to point to. Like I said, if we're taking this court then there's no reason any of it holds up.

This stuff will always be up for argument, though.
 
I think at this stage, I have said my peace on these half reviews and the tired Danny is white topic. I will see you guys when we have an actual show to tal about, as opposed to people bashing a show no one has watched yet.
 
I mean, if we're taking this court then there's no reason to keep anything the way it is.

I can't see 'old money' changing in my lifetime, so I think if Bruce Wayne is supposed to be the prince of Gotham and part of the elite class, him being white seems like it has to keep. Him being old money is entirely about his family, and how far back the Wayne's go with being rich and social elites. People of color know that even you have money, and are part of the elite class...you still get knocked down a peg. There's plenty of examples of wealthy and high social status people of color still being pulled over by the police or being arrested in their own homes.

Now, I've never ever seen anyone else make the argument for Superman that I just made. Other than his biblical inspiration, there's nothing really else to point to. Like I said, if we're taking this court then there's no reason any of it holds up.

This stuff will always be up for argument, though.

Well this is where we get into the argument of degrees of importance for certain elements of a character in terms of what truly defines him. Even fans of certain characters would have differing opinions to various degrees.

I'm of the belief these characters are a part of history and should be left alone for the most part, I'm just saying legitimate arguments can be made. I personally think it's lazy to just want to change characters (beloved characters) created in the past because they don't reflect present ideals for some people. The better solution (aside from just making updates) is to create new characters which represent the modern social fabric. This is the more genuine solution moving forward.
 
There are a few characters who I really feel needs a race change for the MCU.

At the top of my list is Namor. If his last name wasn't MacKenzie, I would have thought he was an Asian guy. He's connected to the Avengers and needs a high budget to get right so he belongs on the film side.

And when Daredevil Season 3 rolls around, I really hope that Typhoid is Latina since if you look at the exact color that was used on JRJR's art, it's obvious that she's meant to be Peurto Rican.

With the Spider-Man sequel in 2019, I hope that Scorpion is depicted as Mexican-American like his Ultimate counterpart since there isn't much in the way of Hispanic representation. He's one of the three biggest Spider-Man villains who the films haven't touched yet and unlike Carnage and Hobgoblin, he doesn't need multiple films to set up his debut.

Beetle also needs to be black since the, "undercover as a black guy" subplot is too close to blackface for me. I don't care if he debuts in a Spider-Man, Ant-Man or Iron Man film since he's an enemy of all three but he's needed for Thunderbolts and he really needs to be played by a black actor.

The only race changes in the MCU which really bothered me are MJ Watson and The Ancient One. The former since being a natural redhead was always a huge part of what made her identifiable and the latter since The Ancient One was so heavily inspired by Tibetan Buddhism and the character was changed to appease Chinese censors really, really rubbed me the wrong way. It was bending over backwards to appease a dictatorship when Deadpool is proof that you don't need the Chinese box office to turn a profit anymore.

And I'd greenlight new series with diverse leads. On the film side, I really think that Scarlet Johansson and Don Cheadle can more than handle a Black Widow or War Machine film franchise and there's enough source material for both. I'd start with Homecoming and Dragon Seed Saga for the first films. I'd also add Martyr and Moondragon to Guardians of the Galaxy 3 since we're ready for gay superheroes. With TV, I not only hope that America Chavez shows up in New Warriors but that we get some diverse leads as well.

Power Pack needs to come to Disney Channel where after a few seasons, a Julie Power who's now 17 or 18 learns that she's "different." I'm not sure if they'll outright (no pun intended) say that she's a lesbian since the show would be directed at kids but the subtext needs to be there where adults viewers will know EXACTLY what they're talking about.

Moon Knight would feature a Jewish lead since Thing, Shadowcat, Iceman and Magneto are all at Fox and Moon Knight is the only option. The show needs to have a subplot with Marc and his father and how his father isn't happy that Marc has not only left the faith but abandoned the 1st Commandment and now worships Egyptian gods needs to be happen since it directly ties in to themes of Jewish identity and the difference between being ethnically, religiously and culturally Jewish. Keep in mind that it would also be an exploration of mental illness and hopefully have some seriously mind-bending imagery. I'd have the Mr. Knight persona show up for fireplace chats to break the fourth wall and explain an otherwise difficult to follow series where anything seen on screen could be a hallucination that gets retconned in the next episode. And I'd still bring the action. Think Twin Peaks meets 24 for a good idea of what I'd do with Moon Knight.

2 out of 4 Ghost Riders are Hispanic. One's Mexican, the other is Mexican-American. Honestly, I feel like Ghost Rider would be better off on El Rey than Netflix for a number of reasons. El Rey is owned by Robert Rodgiguez who's not only Mexican-America but specifically markets his channel with terms like, "grindhouse," "bullets and brawlers," "kung-fu flicks" and "cult horror." Ghost Rider was created in the 70s with the growing popularity of low-budget schlock horror. He's also been involved with the Sin City movies so he gets comics. It's also a network that has some original programming but not much and only one hit in From Dusk Till Dawn. It's too perfect a fit and I'd like to see a Blade series on the same network for ease of crossovers so both Marvel Horror properties would be on the same network. Think along the lines of American Horror Story meets Sons of Anarchy with the gore of Spartacus and a soundtrack mostly consisting of licensed heavy metal songs. And film on location it in LA and Las Vegas since shooting in LA is cheap anyway.

Speaking of which, Blade should also happen. I'd focus on Blade as a black British immigrant living in New Orleans and play up his hunter side. Less action than the Blade films and more of a long game as Blade stalks his prey across several episodes. And then make Dracula have enough screen time to be an equally compelling character. Something where we actually feel for Dracula since he is being stalked by somebody who is trying to kill him. Basically True Blood meets Buffy meets True Detective with Ghost Rider crossovers.

Elektra should be on Netflix since she's associated with those characters. And we only have two female leads right now with Jessica Jones and Captain Marvel. Elektra is needed badly. Season 1 would be based on Elektra: Assassin since the story there is actually relevant today with all the talk of Trump being controlled by Russia. Film it in Washington DC, use the woods in the surrounding area to double for South America and replace John Garrett with Deathlok and that's absolutely perfect. The pitch should be The Manchurian Candidate meets Nikita meets Into the Badlands meets Deadliest Warrior.

Finally, Shang Chi is really needed since it would hopefully be on Netflix but wouldn't take place in New York which much like Elektra would open up possibilities for doing more crossovers/Defenders seasons since it would open up the schedule a bit more. Shang Chi needs to be a family drama, a crime series and an action series. Plus, it would link Agents of SHIELD to the wider MCU and hopefully reintroduce Mockingbird and Lance Hunter. It's about a secret agent fighting Hong Kong Triads who he finds out that he's related to but also needs to have an amazing fight every few episodes and needs to culminate with a fight against Taskmaster. Think along the lines of an homage to every great Asian action film ever (Oldboy, Hard Boiled, The Raid, Way of the Dragon, The Street Fighter, etc) and you have a rough idea of what kind of series should be made. Film it in both Cantonese and English with subtitles and use Chinese actors and directors. And Fu Manchu's name needs to be changed to Zheng Zu for at least a hundred different reasons. Make them the Zheng family in general.
 
EW review, minor spoilers:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/03/10/iron-fist-ew-review/

cuban.gif


I'm still on the binge train and will reserve judgment till the final episode, but that was pretty damn brutal.

Man that was a brutal review. Here's the thing, though, a lot of what bothered the reviewer I can see myself being ok with or not being bothered by, but poor fight scenes in a series about a kickass martial artist is unforgivable. If the fight scenes cannot at least be on DD's level than that is a huge black mark in my book.
 
They should've just made the whole series about a corporate board meeting where Rand tries to free his company from being ruled by an iron fist under the existing board members. That could've been Scott Buck's unique take on it. :o
 
There are a few characters who I really feel needs a race change for the MCU.

At the top of my list is Namor. If his last name wasn't MacKenzie, I would have thought he was an Asian guy. He's connected to the Avengers and needs a high budget to get right so he belongs on the film side.

And when Daredevil Season 3 rolls around, I really hope that Typhoid is Latina since if you look at the exact color that was used on JRJR's art, it's obvious that she's meant to be Peurto Rican.

With the Spider-Man sequel in 2019, I hope that Scorpion is depicted as Mexican-American like his Ultimate counterpart since there isn't much in the way of Hispanic representation. He's one of the three biggest Spider-Man villains who the films haven't touched yet and unlike Carnage and Hobgoblin, he doesn't need multiple films to set up his debut.

Beetle also needs to be black since the, "undercover as a black guy" subplot is too close to blackface for me. I don't care if he debuts in a Spider-Man, Ant-Man or Iron Man film since he's an enemy of all three but he's needed for Thunderbolts and he really needs to be played by a black actor.

The only race changes in the MCU which really bothered me are MJ Watson and The Ancient One. The former since being a natural redhead was always a huge part of what made her identifiable and the latter since The Ancient One was so heavily inspired by Tibetan Buddhism and the character was changed to appease Chinese censors really, really rubbed me the wrong way. It was bending over backwards to appease a dictatorship when Deadpool is proof that you don't need the Chinese box office to turn a profit anymore.

And I'd greenlight new series with diverse leads. On the film side, I really think that Scarlet Johansson and Don Cheadle can more than handle a Black Widow or War Machine film franchise and there's enough source material for both. I'd start with Homecoming and Dragon Seed Saga for the first films. I'd also add Martyr and Moondragon to Guardians of the Galaxy 3 since we're ready for gay superheroes. With TV, I not only hope that America Chavez shows up in New Warriors but that we get some diverse leads as well.

Power Pack needs to come to Disney Channel where after a few seasons, a Julie Power who's now 17 or 18 learns that she's "different." I'm not sure if they'll outright (no pun intended) say that she's a lesbian since the show would be directed at kids but the subtext needs to be there where adults viewers will know EXACTLY what they're talking about.

Moon Knight would feature a Jewish lead since Thing, Shadowcat, Iceman and Magneto are all at Fox and Moon Knight is the only option. The show needs to have a subplot with Marc and his father and how his father isn't happy that Marc has not only left the faith but abandoned the 1st Commandment and now worships Egyptian gods needs to be happen since it directly ties in to themes of Jewish identity and the difference between being ethnically, religiously and culturally Jewish. Keep in mind that it would also be an exploration of mental illness and hopefully have some seriously mind-bending imagery. I'd have the Mr. Knight persona show up for fireplace chats to break the fourth wall and explain an otherwise difficult to follow series where anything seen on screen could be a hallucination that gets retconned in the next episode. And I'd still bring the action. Think Twin Peaks meets 24 for a good idea of what I'd do with Moon Knight.

2 out of 4 Ghost Riders are Hispanic. One's Mexican, the other is Mexican-American. Honestly, I feel like Ghost Rider would be better off on El Rey than Netflix for a number of reasons. El Rey is owned by Robert Rodgiguez who's not only Mexican-America but specifically markets his channel with terms like, "grindhouse," "bullets and brawlers," "kung-fu flicks" and "cult horror." Ghost Rider was created in the 70s with the growing popularity of low-budget schlock horror. He's also been involved with the Sin City movies so he gets comics. It's also a network that has some original programming but not much and only one hit in From Dusk Till Dawn. It's too perfect a fit and I'd like to see a Blade series on the same network for ease of crossovers so both Marvel Horror properties would be on the same network. Think along the lines of American Horror Story meets Sons of Anarchy with the gore of Spartacus and a soundtrack mostly consisting of licensed heavy metal songs. And film on location it in LA and Las Vegas since shooting in LA is cheap anyway.

Speaking of which, Blade should also happen. I'd focus on Blade as a black British immigrant living in New Orleans and play up his hunter side. Less action than the Blade films and more of a long game as Blade stalks his prey across several episodes. And then make Dracula have enough screen time to be an equally compelling character. Something where we actually feel for Dracula since he is being stalked by somebody who is trying to kill him. Basically True Blood meets Buffy meets True Detective with Ghost Rider crossovers.

Elektra should be on Netflix since she's associated with those characters. And we only have two female leads right now with Jessica Jones and Captain Marvel. Elektra is needed badly. Season 1 would be based on Elektra: Assassin since the story there is actually relevant today with all the talk of Trump being controlled by Russia. Film it in Washington DC, use the woods in the surrounding area to double for South America and replace John Garrett with Deathlok and that's absolutely perfect. The pitch should be The Manchurian Candidate meets Nikita meets Into the Badlands meets Deadliest Warrior.

Finally, Shang Chi is really needed since it would hopefully be on Netflix but wouldn't take place in New York which much like Elektra would open up possibilities for doing more crossovers/Defenders seasons since it would open up the schedule a bit more. Shang Chi needs to be a family drama, a crime series and an action series. Plus, it would link Agents of SHIELD to the wider MCU and hopefully reintroduce Mockingbird and Lance Hunter. It's about a secret agent fighting Hong Kong Triads who he finds out that he's related to but also needs to have an amazing fight every few episodes and needs to culminate with a fight against Taskmaster. Think along the lines of an homage to every great Asian action film ever (Oldboy, Hard Boiled, The Raid, Way of the Dragon, The Street Fighter, etc) and you have a rough idea of what kind of series should be made. Film it in both Cantonese and English with subtitles and use Chinese actors and directors. And Fu Manchu's name needs to be changed to Zheng Zu for at least a hundred different reasons. Make them the Zheng family in general.

Well Namor is a character I'd be OK with, he's always looked Asian. Scorpion outside of the suit isn't a major part of pop culture iconography, so that would be fine as well. MJ's iconography is a big part of popular culture and that bothers me from a historical perspective more. That being said, as long as the core identity of the character is intact then it's certainly not a deal breaker for me.
 
They should've just made the whole series about a corporate board meeting where Rand tries to free his company from being ruled by an iron fist under the existing board members. That could've been Scott Buck's unique take on it. :o

It sounds like that IS Scott Buck's "unique take" on it :barf:
 
He was trying to buck the trend of Marvel Netflix series.
 
I'm holding out hope that after a full season viewing we'll all be Buck converters...
 
That line would have killed at an electrical convention full of Iron Fist fans.
 
Well Namor is a character I'd be OK with, he's always looked Asian. Scorpion outside of the suit isn't a major part of pop culture iconography, so that would be fine as well. MJ's iconography is a big part of popular culture and that bothers me from a historical perspective more. That being said, as long as the core identity of the character is intact then it's certainly not a deal breaker for me.

And one more thing, if Marvel actually do Namor, they need to not ground his costume. He needs a thong speedo and other characters need to react appropriately to that. Something where Captain America can say, "And put some clothes on! For goodness sake, you're supposed to be a prince!"

But back to Iron Fist and the topic of race changes. In the comics, he's actually 1/4th Chinese on his father's side. An Asian-American Iron Fist would actually be comic accurate and considering that Elektra, Wong, Quake and Agent May are the only four Asian superheroes in the MCU (and there are no Asian supervillains since the Mandarin of all people was really a white guy) and none of them are headlining a solo series, that's an issue. If anything, that's why we need Shang Chi and Elektra TV series and an Asian Namor in a film, possibly also Kamala Khan in New Warriors if the Captain Marvel movie works.

And it's even worse for Hispanic representation. Ghost Rider works and I hope to see Robbie return and interact with the other three riders but so far, despite the positive reception, there's very little talk of a Ghost Rider series. So far, there's nobody out there from my background but him and Claire Temple. I really, really, really want a Hispanic Scorpion in the next Spider-Man film and I really hope that Deigo Luna plays him.
 
On the film side, we have Brie Larson and Chadwick Boseman headlining their own movies. Hell, nobody ever thought a BP movie was going to happen and it's happening with a black director, co-written by two black guys with a large black cast.
 
On the film side, we have Brie Larson and Chadwick Boseman headlining their own movies. Hell, nobody ever thought a BP movie was going to happen and it's happening with a black director, co-written by two black guys with a large black cast.

Which it should since Black Panther is set in Africa and frequently deals with Africa's relation to the rest of the world as its core theme.
 
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Man that was a brutal review. Here's the thing, though, a lot of what bothered the reviewer I can see myself being ok with or not being bothered by, but poor fight scenes in a series about a kickass martial artist is unforgivable. If the fight scenes cannot at least be on DD's level than that is a huge black mark in my book.

Well I didn't read any area where he said the fight scenes were bad only that he felt they were trying to make it seem effortless for Danny to take out the competition, which in return made the fight scenes not very exciting. However, Danny is a fighter that is Superior to Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage so it would make sense that most battles with typical characters would be rather easy for him to take out. I mean it might come across as boring to some but it also is an important step in highlighting his incredible fighting skills. This way when the Villain that is worthy of his skills shows up in the 2nd half, we'll then it is game on. At that point I think we will see some action fighting sequences that will truly seem like a spectacle to behold. Or at least I am hoping. But I still have faith the 2nd half will deliver. Even that critic said most Marvel Netflix shows suffer in the middle with the story slowing down. Luke Cages story had it's problems towards the end. So, some of the shows had it in the middle, one had it at the end and now this one has it at the beginning. Who cares where they place the slower episodes, they all had them. For me I would rather get the slower episodes out of the way early and then have it ramp up for a more spectacular ending, but to each their own. I could be out of my mind, but I still think it is completely possible this show ends up being as good as the other Marvel Netflix shows. I will reserve my judgement until after I have had a chance to see all the episodes. I think others should do the same.

Surfer
 
And it's even worse for Hispanic representation. Ghost Rider works and I hope to see Robbie return and interact with the other three riders but so far, despite the positive reception, there's very little talk of a Ghost Rider series. So far, there's nobody out there from my background but him and Claire Temple. I really, really, really want a Hispanic Scorpion in the next Spider-Man film and I really hope that Deigo Luna plays him.
w'bout Slingshot? She even had that miniseries.

I also remember The Condor was something Stan Lee created.
Sucks he didn't get absorbed into Marvel comics.
 
As far as Ghost Rider, I think that may depend on the fate of AoS. If AoS stays, we already have Inhumans coming later this year, and given Punisher is coming after Defenders, there is no Netflix opening for him yet either. I think Ghost Rider may materialize more quickly if AoS gets cancelled cause then Marvel will want an ABC show to replace it
 
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As far as Ghost Rider, I think that may depend on the fate of AoS. If AoS stays, we already have Inhumans coming later this year, and given Punisher is coming after Defenders, there is no Netflix opening for him yet either. I think Ghost Rider may materialize more quickly if AoS gets cancelled cause then Marvel will want an ABC show to replace it

OT: Yeah, considering that AOS is more than likely gonna get a 5th (and possibly final) season, it might be a while before we see Johnny Blaze ride his motorcycle. Personally, I'm holding out for a Moon Knight series, if only so I can understand why this character is so popular. That, or a Power Pack TV miniseries. I love the Power Pack.
 
With the show's ratings continuously dropping this season and Inhumans coming in September I think the chances of AoS renewal are pretty much slim to none.
 
With the show's ratings continuously dropping this season and Inhumans coming in September I think the chances of AoS renewal are pretty much slim to none.

We shall see. I personally would like to see an 8-13 episode Ghost Rider show than a 5th season of AoS. I do not hate AoS, but I do think it is the weakest thing in the MCU, and we would get more out of a Ghost Rider show IMO
 
I'd be curious to hear some of what was going on behind-the-scenes with Iron Fist and why they made certain decisions.

I mean look, all signs point to the Marvel TV brass being happy with what they are seeing because they turned right around and handed Inhumans to Scott Buck. It seems after they hired Buck there was no second guessing at all. I mean that's a huge project no matter what anyone says.
 
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