Iron Fist Iron Fist General Discussion Thread - Part 3

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Are people asking Finn Jones to change his skin color?
People were virtually demanding the role be changed to a stereotype just to satisfy the demands of representation. This literally has been called out directly in some of the reviews as a point to hold against the show and Jones himself.

That mindset, is what I am referring to.
 
People were virtually demanding the role be changed to a stereotype just to satisfy the demands of representation. This literally has been called out directly in some of the reviews as a point to hold against the show and Jones himself.

That mindset, is what I am referring to.

Yeah...w/e your stance may be regarding this mindset, changing or keeping the race of a fictional portrayal
should reasonably be exempt from what the civil rights movement stood for.
 
Yeah...w/e your stance may be regarding this mindset, changing or keeping the race of a fictional portrayal
should reasonably be exempt from what the civil rights movement stood for.
You are entirely missing the point. Which is the vitriol of these people is (rather ironically) a direct contrast to those words.

Yes, it should have been reasonably exempt, but you may want to go say that to the people who went after Finn Jones in the manner they did, for no other reason then getting an acting job.
 
You are entirely missing the point. Which is the vitriol of these people is (rather ironically) a direct contrast to those words.

Yes, it should have been reasonably exempt, but you may want to go say that to the people who went after Finn Jones in the manner they did, for no other reason then getting an acting job.

And there was some blog making an apologist piece for those people basically saying Finn should "just listen" and "not take it personally" SMFH
 
I think the race thing was a no win situation for Marvel and Netflix. They either cast a white guy and get the white savior complaints or cast an asian and get the only looking at asians of martial artists complaints.
 
Yes, it should have been reasonably exempt, but you may want to go say that to the people who went after Finn Jones in the manner they did, for no other reason then getting an acting job.
Will do. Always amazed how far fan outrage has come.
 
This is just speculation, but I have a feeling the first half is going to be about Danny coming back to society and taking back control of Rand industries with Harold Meachum as the Villain, which would explain why critics looking forward to seeing a Kung Fu Superhero show may have felt let down by the slow pacing. However, I think the 2nd half will change focus more on him becoming the hero he is to become with Steel Serpent being the Villain and perhaps Madame Gao pulling the strings, and I think when that happens the show will become what the Critics were expecting and turn people's opinions around on the show. I mean sure perhaps the beginning episodes drag longer then they should have, but everyone of the Netflix Marvel shows have suffered from pacing issues at some point during the season. Anyways I am hoping this is the case.

Surfer
 
This is just speculation, but I have a feeling the first half is going to be about Danny coming back to society and taking back control of Rand industries with Harold Meachum as the Villain, which would explain why critics looking forward to seeing a Kung Fu Superhero show may have felt let down by the slow pacing. However, I think the 2nd half will change focus more on him becoming the hero he is to become with Steel Serpent being the Villain and perhaps Madame Gao pulling the strings, and I think when that happens the show will become what the Critics were expecting and turn people's opinions around on the show. I mean sure perhaps the beginning episodes drag longer then they should have, but everyone of the Netflix Marvel shows have suffered from pacing issues at some point during the season. Anyways I am hoping this is the case.

Surfer

Actually, it's Zhou Cheng as the villain for the second half.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if they did pull another Diamondback twist and have Steel Serpent pop up around episode seven, following Danny to Earth out of jealousy that he took the mantle of the Iron Fist from him. It'd give them the opportunity for impressive fights, someone to match Danny.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if they did pull another Diamondback twist and have Steel Serpent pop up around episode seven, following Danny to Earth out of jealousy that he took the mantle of the Iron Fist from him. It'd give them the opportunity for impressive fights, someone to match Danny.

See above. Zhou Cheng is the bad guy for the second half. I'm just worried that we won't be able to see Ch'i Lin due to budget issues. So far, not a single review has mentioned Lewis Tan's role as the villain and outright stated that Harold Meachum is a weak villain.
 
See above. Zhou Cheng is the bad guy for the second half. I'm just worried that we won't be able to see Ch'i Lin due to budget issues. So far, not a single review has mentioned Lewis Tan's role as the villain and outright stated that Harold Meachum is a weak villain.

I didn't know this was confirmed.
 
I didn't know this was confirmed.

Lewis Tan confirmed that he is playing a villain months ago. His stated role is to kill every Iron Fist who ever existed. Lewis Tan even talked about how he uses a visually interesting martial art and DOES have Ch'i Lin inside him. So naturally the show spends the first six episodes not introducing him at all. We don't know how the effects look. In the comics, Zhou Cheng is immortal and fueled by the power of Ch'i Lin who can emerge from his neck as a second head. Will we see that? I have no idea since those episodes were never screened. He's an interesting villain in the comics but there's nothing to critique regarding Lewis Tan's performance as of yet.

So yes, we are getting another Diamondback taking over as the villain in the second half of the season but it feels like reviewers won't get around to those episodes since they already gave up on the series.
 
Lewis Tan confirmed that he is playing a villain months ago. His stated role is to kill every Iron Fist who ever existed. Lewis Tan even talked about how he uses a visually interesting martial art and DOES have Ch'i Lin inside him. So naturally the show spends the first six episodes not introducing him at all. We don't know how the effects look. In the comics, Zhou Cheng is immortal and fueled by the power of Ch'i Lin who can emerge from his neck as a second head. Will we see that? I have no idea since those episodes were never screened. He's an interesting villain in the comics but there's nothing to critique regarding Lewis Tan's performance as of yet.

If they feature a man with two heads but didn't attempt Danny's costume, I heavily question their definition of "grounded."

Anyway, interesting. I for some reason assumed Tan would be playing a minor, henchman role; I'm not intimate with more recent Iron Fist runs.
 
If they feature a man with two heads but didn't attempt Danny's costume, I heavily question their definition of "grounded."

Anyway, interesting. I for some reason assumed Tan would be playing a minor, henchman role; I'm not intimate with more recent Iron Fist runs.

Nope. He's the bad guy. The problem is that Scott Buck wanted to use a villain destined to kill every Iron Fist who naturally can't debut in the first episode. They really should have saved him for future seasons.

And in the comics, Harold Meachum is assassinated and Danny is framed for it. In the comics it's a random ninja working for Master Khan. I'm guessing that in the show it's Zhou Cheng who kills him.

And yeah, if they actually do the two head effect, then it makes Danny's lack of a costume seem way too strange to ignore.
 
Cant say I disagree.

http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/marvels-iron-fist-proves-superheroes-must-change-or-die.html

Like with Luke Cage, they had an opportunity to update the character as he isn't really well known. Instead it sounds like they went with a cliche story and told it in the most boring way possible.

The funny thing is the article says the show sticks to close to the source material, yet what we're seeing is that the creative choices to signaficantly depart from the source material is a huge downfall factor for the show, as it was for Cage.

They always mention the Brubaker/Fraction run as this sort of gold standard, and while it was a really great run, it's not something you can start a series off with. Danny's return to America, his dynamic with the Meachums, the meshing of mysticism and gritty New York would've adapted easily to a modern era and would've made for good television.

Excuse me if I come off as a 'traditionalist', but there always seems to be a "talking down" of the source material when it comes to articles of both Iron Fist and Luke Cage. It's frustrating because they overexaggerate how outdated the stories were. They were products of their times but they also laid a lot of groundwork that could've been saved for these shows. I get that the Doctor Doom/Luke Cage scene is funny, but it wasn't the end-all be-all for how the series and Cage as a character was written. I mean for god's sake, if Karen Page (who in the 60s Daredevil comics was a stereotypical female love interest) could be written well, it's not hard to do for characters who came a decade later.

I think the problem is, Luke Cage and Iron Fist are based on 70s era fads, while Daredevil became a more timeless noir tale, while Jessica Jones is a very modern character.

I do not have a problem with the way Colter played Luke, modern Luke Cage is married with a child, he is far more mature then his younger more brash counter part from the 70s. I think the "jive talking angry black man" would have been harder sell nowadays and I don't think the modern version of Luke is written that way. I think making the most prominent African American hero charge for his services, while the white super heroes save people for free, would have been a hard sell, IMO.

Its hard to say something should stick with the source material, when the source material radically changes over time.

The problems I had with the Luke Cage have to do with pacing and Diamonback being a silly villain, but I think Luke Cage is fine, its a more of the modern Luke rather then the 70s Luke (who is dated more ways then one).

Iron Fist is a take on Kung Fu the series, so I think its a bit dated.

I think Iron Fist was in an impossible situation, either people would see it as racist due to Danny being a "white savior" or people will be mad that Danny would be presented as a Asian stereotype.

That is why I do not care about who was cast as Danny, but I think Iron Fist would have been harder to do then the other Defenders.

That's why I said both Cage and Fist seem to suffer from pressure from a SJW crowd. Both of the characters were born out of 70s era fads that weren't politically correct, and it's sort of what makes the characters great. And rather than completely overhauling them for a PC audience, why not tweak certain elements and then use the nature of their characters for an interesting exploration? The kind of which we might not get from a Daredevil or a Jessica Jones.

I agree with you that certain elements might not want to be kept (doing hero work for money, jive-talking, etc). But completely throwing out the rest does a disservice to what makes the characters great to begin with. What was the point of making Cage from the countryside and a son of a pastor? What was the point of constantly emphasizing throughout the series that he was an ex-cop and ex-military, yet doing absolutely nothing with it? Seems to me they were scared of how the show would be percieved from people all across the political spectrum, causing them to try and be "safe", but causing the end product to suffer. It seems a similar thing happened with Iron Fist with all the talks about him being "problematic".

Cage and Fist can be updated for modern times. The premises they sold us in the trailers and in the promotion were good. Mid 90s hip hop vibe with Cage in Harlem fighting gangsters and drug dealers while being a fugitive and confronting his past? Sounded like a perfect update of the first few issues of Luke's 70s run and would've fit in right with the street-level storylines of the Netflix shows. What did we get instead? A corny, neo-blaxploitation show with muddled fights with a lead actor not wanting to do to much physical scenes despite playing a character known as Power Man. Iron Fist suddenly re-emerging in NYC, causing the Meachums to feel their power threatened and Danny being deemed a crazy person, having to go to therapy, while having to deal with both threats from the Meachums as well as more mystical threats? Sounded like a perfect update of arcs from his original series run. What did we get instead? Corporate meetings, muddled plot, squandered K'un-L'un, no costume, and most importantly, fumbled fight scenes for a character whose MAIN GIMMICK is fighting. What was given to us was proved that not only was the marketing false, but it was a squandering of such great potential to tell really good character stories.
 
I think all of the Marvel Netflix shows have had pacing issues. All could usually remove 2 or 3 episodes and cut out some fluff and have a much more streamlined story without actually losing anything of real substance. Hopefully, Iron Fist has these issues within its first 6 episodes and the second half is all killer no filler.I can only hope, or the entire season is uneven and its just going to be a middle of the road/somewhat below average show.
 
I fully expect the RT score to shoot up once the entire season is released.
 
I fully expect the RT score to shoot up once the entire season is released.


I don't know if it'll shoot up. What I would expect, if Iron Fist actually does get good, a lot of the geek culture websites etc will come out with articles and reviews telling people that. Will they retrospectively add these positive opinions to rotten tomatoes? Who knows.
 
I fully expect the RT score to shoot up once the entire season is released.

I don't know about that because I don't know how many reviewers that contribute to Rotten Tomatoes will be submitting reviews of the full season vs. the first six.

That being said, we're only at 14 reviews (average review is just barely negative, fwiw, at 5/10 when 6/10 would be positive). Legion has 58 reviews. So maybe the number of reviews of the full show will be much higher. That doesn't mean it'll be majority positive when there are 60 reviewers. A weak first half is still a weak first half even if it comes together in the end.
 
I don't know about that because I don't know how many reviewers that contribute to Rotten Tomatoes will be submitting reviews of the full season vs. the first six.

That being said, we're only at 14 reviews (average review is just barely negative, fwiw, at 5/10 when 6/10 would be positive). Legion has 58 reviews. So maybe the number of reviews of the full show will be much higher. That doesn't mean it'll be majority positive when there are 60 reviewers. A weak first half is still a weak first half even if it comes together in the end.

Well as a comparison Luke Cage season one and Jessica Jones season one both have over 50 reviews. I would expect something similar for Iron Fist.
 
The funny thing is the article says the show sticks to close to the source material, yet what we're seeing is that the creative choices to signaficantly depart from the source material is a huge downfall factor for the show, as it was for Cage.

They always mention the Brubaker/Fraction run as this sort of gold standard, and while it was a really great run, it's not something you can start a series off with. Danny's return to America, his dynamic with the Meachums, the meshing of mysticism and gritty New York would've adapted easily to a modern era and would've made for good television.

Excuse me if I come off as a 'traditionalist', but there always seems to be a "talking down" of the source material when it comes to articles of both Iron Fist and Luke Cage. It's frustrating because they overexaggerate how outdated the stories were. They were products of their times but they also laid a lot of groundwork that could've been saved for these shows. I get that the Doctor Doom/Luke Cage scene is funny, but it wasn't the end-all be-all for how the series and Cage as a character was written. I mean for god's sake, if Karen Page (who in the 60s Daredevil comics was a stereotypical female love interest) could be written well, it's not hard to do for characters who came a decade later.



That's why I said both Cage and Fist seem to suffer from pressure from a SJW crowd. Both of the characters were born out of 70s era fads that weren't politically correct, and it's sort of what makes the characters great. And rather than completely overhauling them for a PC audience, why not tweak certain elements and then use the nature of their characters for an interesting exploration? The kind of which we might not get from a Daredevil or a Jessica Jones.

I agree with you that certain elements might not want to be kept (doing hero work for money, jive-talking, etc). But completely throwing out the rest does a disservice to what makes the characters great to begin with. What was the point of making Cage from the countryside and a son of a pastor? What was the point of constantly emphasizing throughout the series that he was an ex-cop and ex-military, yet doing absolutely nothing with it? Seems to me they were scared of how the show would be percieved from people all across the political spectrum, causing them to try and be "safe", but causing the end product to suffer. It seems a similar thing happened with Iron Fist with all the talks about him being "problematic".

Cage and Fist can be updated for modern times. The premises they sold us in the trailers and in the promotion were good. Mid 90s hip hop vibe with Cage in Harlem fighting gangsters and drug dealers while being a fugitive and confronting his past? Sounded like a perfect update of the first few issues of Luke's 70s run and would've fit in right with the street-level storylines of the Netflix shows. What did we get instead? A corny, neo-blaxploitation show with muddled fights with a lead actor not wanting to do to much physical scenes despite playing a character known as Power Man. Iron Fist suddenly re-emerging in NYC, causing the Meachums to feel their power threatened and Danny being deemed a crazy person, having to go to therapy, while having to deal with both threats from the Meachums as well as more mystical threats? Sounded like a perfect update of arcs from his original series run. What did we get instead? Corporate meetings, muddled plot, squandered K'un-L'un, no costume, and most importantly, fumbled fight scenes for a character whose MAIN GIMMICK is fighting. What was given to us was proved that not only was the marketing false, but it was a squandering of such great potential to tell really good character stories.

I don't know, I didn't mind most of those changes you mentioned and I actually think Luke Cage did improve on a few elements from the comics.

I think Cottonmouth and Mariah are far more interesting in this show then they are in the comics, where they are just generic gangsters with silly gimmicks, here they feel more like human beings.

The preacher thing I thought was a little odd, but it didn't bother me, making Diamondback Luke's brother was a bit cliche though.

Too me the big flaws of the Luke Cage show was the pacing and Diamondback being a silly cartoon villain.

I don't think lack of adherence to source material was Luke Cage's big problem, I think better pacing, a less disjointed feel and making Diamondback a better villain (or saving him for season 2) would have made the show better, if those problems still existed, adhering to source material wouldn't have gotten rid of them.

The Guardians of the Galaxy movie is different from the comic, but it still worked.

Its hard to good fights with Luke Cage, because of how powerful he is, most of his enemies on the show posed no real threat to him, so fights between him and most of the criminals on the show had no tension. Having Luke Cage bust up Cottonmouth's little fort looked kinda cool, but there is no real dramatic tension in that scene, because no one can hurt him. Its easier to do a cool fight scene with DD, where a random punk could get lucky and kill him.

They tried to do a fight between Luke and Diamondback that was more even but I thought it was silly and didn't really fit the tone of the rest of the show.

I thought the Luke Cage show was okay, I liked some elements and didn't like others. I did not like it as much as the other two shows though.

I think some people love the Luke Cage show, some people hate it and some people think its okay, but it does seem like Iron Fist will have fewer defenders.

But frankly adapting Luke Cage to the Netflix model would always be easier then doing it for Iron Fist.
 
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This is just speculation, but I have a feeling the first half is going to be about Danny coming back to society and taking back control of Rand industries with Harold Meachum as the Villain, which would explain why critics looking forward to seeing a Kung Fu Superhero show may have felt let down by the slow pacing. However, I think the 2nd half will change focus more on him becoming the hero he is to become with Steel Serpent being the Villain and perhaps Madame Gao pulling the strings, and I think when that happens the show will become what the Critics were expecting and turn people's opinions around on the show. I mean sure perhaps the beginning episodes drag longer then they should have, but everyone of the Netflix Marvel shows have suffered from pacing issues at some point during the season. Anyways I am hoping this is the case.

Surfer

that would make sense
 
This is just speculation, but I have a feeling the first half is going to be about Danny coming back to society and taking back control of Rand industries with Harold Meachum as the Villain, which would explain why critics looking forward to seeing a Kung Fu Superhero show may have felt let down by the slow pacing. However, I think the 2nd half will change focus more on him becoming the hero he is to become with Steel Serpent being the Villain and perhaps Madame Gao pulling the strings, and I think when that happens the show will become what the Critics were expecting and turn people's opinions around on the show. I mean sure perhaps the beginning episodes drag longer then they should have, but everyone of the Netflix Marvel shows have suffered from pacing issues at some point during the season. Anyways I am hoping this is the case.

Surfer

I have feeling it will be.
 
Still looking forward to it and with the poor reviews my expectations lowered so maybe I'll still really like it.

As long as Danny's awesome as well as Colleen, I think I will.
 
I'm torn on the issue at hand for a couple reasons, but I'm not losing sleep over it.
a. Changing the character to an asian-american fish out of water story could've been a very entertaining concept.
b. But it didn't happen. So how can people judge the show based on this weird hypothetical?

a. "white savior" is an unfortunate trope.
b. "all asians know martial arts" is an unfortunate stereotype

a. young asian-americans deserve characters and superheroes who look like them to idolize and aspire to.
b. but changing Danny Rand to Asian is no different than changing Frank Castle and I didn't hear anyone clamoring for that.

a. I can list several asian-american actors who could've done the role justice. Albeit with slightly different plot beats.
b. I like Finn Jones. And aesthetically he is a nigh impeccable Rand.
 
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