Is Batman Returns darker than Batman89?

[OutRiddled]

I don't recall the penguin dancing around to prince or acting like a fun uncle in Returns.

A dancing fun uncle who throws acid on his girlfriend's face just for kicks.

 

[Ponyboy]

Yes. By a long shot.Batman Returns is a ridiculously dark movie.
The freaking opening has a baby being chucked off a bridge into icy sewer water. Who then grows up with a plan to kill everyone elses first born by drowing them in sewer water.

How is that any darker than the Joker killing people on live television? Or murdering every single person in the Museum at once? Are you saying it's darker because its a baby thats going down the sewer? Both arguments hold validity I think but it doesn't mean Batman Returns is darker.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I got this on Blu Ray today and watched it.

 

[El Payaso]

Didn't Burton himself said something about how crazy was to listen to different opinions when BR was out? He said that many people commented on how darker BR was than B89, then many people saying how darker B89 was. In the end, Burton just shrugged and said 'what does that tell us about human perception?' and I think he said that was why he never paid too much attention to comments when making his movies. Or when they were out.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

How is that any darker than the Joker killing people on live television? Or murdering every single person in the Museum at once? Are you saying it's darker because its a baby thats going down the sewer? Both arguments hold validity I think but it doesn't mean Batman Returns is darker.

The tone of most of the Joker scenes seemed wacky to me with dark bits around it. The Penguin didn't seem all that wacky or arguably insane at all by comparison. He could seemingly morally comprehend what he was doing and why he was doing it. While the Joker took joy in it, Danny Devito's character was deeply unpleasent and very angry towards basically, everyone. Society as a whole needed punished. He doesn't get enough credit for it. The mannerisms and voice work just wreak of bile and hate. His death is kinda abit, uh as well. While it's not gory, that gurgling noise like his throat is burning with the kinda black looking ink blood dripping out his mouth and nose it's not really particarly nice. The bit with the cats nipping catwoman is kinda like something for a horror movie as well. Why are they biting her though? Not a clue.

 

[Brain Damage]

I definitely think Returns in the darker movie.
89' has some gruesome stuff in it but The Joker manages to make even his most chilling moments fun (though the fried gangster bit is genius, i'll never forget Jack's look when he says "Life's been good to me), while the Penguin is just filled with nothing but pure dread and terror. He looks horrific, he walks like a monster, he talks like a freak and he kidnaps babies with the intent of throwing them all into the sewer to drown. Scary.
I really think Danny DeVito is underrated in this role, it's honestly one of his best performances and one of the best in any comic book movie that I can think of. And the darkness of the movie really falls on him; while in terms of grand evil plans they are both pretty similar, Penguin just seemed more vile than the Joker.
When The Joker is on the screen, you're filled with a sense of "something bad is about to happen", but also with joy and excitement to see what quirky way the horror will come in, but that's just the nature of the character.
Penguin, as DeVito played him was simply evil and every time he's on screen there's a sense of dread that lurks over every scene he's in. Burton and crew did a very good job at showing the general disgust people have in dealing with Cobblepot.

 

[GothamAlleys]

While it's not gory, that gurgling noise like his throat is burning with the kinda black looking ink blood dripping out his mouth and nose it's not really particarly nice.

That image still isnt nice looking even by todays standards. Nolan mentioend that Returns went too far with being dark and mentioned "some" disturbing imagery with Penguin. That must be it

The bit with the cats nipping catwoman is kinda like something for a horror movie as well. Why are they biting her though? Not a clue.

Well, hungry cats are known to chew on human bodies, unconscious or dead. I was reading an article about it once

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

Yea but like, 50 at once?

 

[GothamAlleys]

They were all alleys cats, mightve been starving for days, especially in a city like Gotham. And in a city like this they were probably used to eating bodies in dark alleys by then

 

[TruerToTheCore]

They were radioactive zombie cats. Radiated by Christopher Walken's power-plant-that-is-none. Also responsible for letting ducks appear on a radar screen. And also the reason why all the parents went to Walken's party and yet it didn't appear overly crowded.

 

[Brain Damage]

They were radioactive zombie cats. Radiated by Christopher Walken's power-plant-that-is-none. Also responsible for letting ducks appear on a radar screen. And also the reason why all the parents went to Walken's party and yet it didn't appear overly crowded.

Speaking of which, I'd like to take a minute to remind everyone that despite how crappy his character was, Christopher Walken was in a Batman movie.
And that, my friends, is called winning.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

I like Christopher Walkens burnt golfball eye skeleton body ends up being less weird looking than Christopher Walkens natural state.

 

[Brain Damage]

That image still isnt nice looking even by todays standards. Nolan mentioend that Returns went too far with being dark and mentioned "some" disturbing imagery with Penguin. That must be it

Sorry for the double post, but do you happen to have a link to this interview? I've always wanted to see Nolan's take on the old movies.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Sorry for the double post, but do you happen to have a link to this interview? I've always wanted to see Nolan's take on the old movies.

Sure, all opinions collected here - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/11/their-comments-on-others-work.html

 

[Slushy]

Re: Is Batman Returns darker than Batman89?

I agree. The Penguin was more sadistic than The Joker! I also enjoyed The Penguin being a mutated man-bird. It was a sensical change that was for the better.

 

[OutRiddled]

And also the reason why all the parents went to Walken's party and yet it didn't appear overly crowded.

Everyone at the Schreck ball was high society, wealthy people. I always thought it was the Penguin's plan to kill the first borns of the rich, like he was. Then he just thought "**** it", I'll reduce Gotham to rubble.

 

[The Joker]

I never thought it was Penguin's plan to abduct babies just from the rich. Especially when you saw some of the grotty low rent looking buildings they were taking babies from in the circus train scene.

He was after first born sons, not just first born sons of the wealthy. His parents wealth wasn't something that bothered him, it was that they rejected him.

 

[El Payaso]

They were radioactive zombie cats. Radiated by Christopher Walken's power-plant-that-is-none. Also responsible for letting ducks appear on a radar screen. And also the reason why all the parents went to Walken's party and yet it didn't appear overly crowded.

Also the reason why nothing in your post ever happened or is accurate.

 

[GothamLegend]

And also the reason why all the parents went to Walken's party and yet it didn't appear overly crowded.

And yet there was absolutely NO gotham police to stop the now extremely expert kidnapping circus performers? Uhhh, ok. haha. If I was one of those kids and that weird lady with the stupid little poodle dog tried taking me away at night, she would get smacked up.

Returns I think is "darker" in it's visuals. It's also alot less serious than Batman '89. Batman '89 is more classic film noir based. Returns is even more fantasy based, and caters to Burton's gothic / emo / Hot Topic sense of style.

 

[El Payaso]

And yet there was absolutely NO gotham police to stop the now extremely expert kidnapping circus performers? Uhhh, ok. haha. If I was one of those kids and that weird lady with the stupid little poodle dog tried taking me away at night, she would get smacked up.

Police is never quite smart in Batman movies. That's why everyone in Gotham knew the major was going to be the next Joker's victim in TDK. Yet a man with big scars in his mouth was able to get a uniform, a gun and place himself right next to the major and fire at him and nobody noticed. And nobody could notice him AFTER the incident so he could escape without further problem. Not even all those cops in the rooftops could. They could spot a window's curtain opening, but the Joker and his accomplice... no sir. Lousy security there. I mean, at least Penguin didn't announce what was his next move like Joker did. But the same could be said about Harvey Dent being freed by Joker when all the police were guarding the hospital, and what about the bank robbery, everyone saw the School bus coming out from that hole in the bank's wall, the police were even getting there in that moment. But they didn't do anything. See?

Returns I think is "darker" in it's visuals. It's also alot less serious than Batman '89. Batman '89 is more classic film noir based. Returns is even more fantasy based, and caters to Burton's gothic / emo / Hot Topic sense of style.

Yes, the darker BR was was balanced with more humour. But... there was an 'emo sense of style' before there were emos? And what's a 'Hot Topic style'? Do you care to explain?

 

[GothamAlleys]

And what's a 'Hot Topic style'? Do you care to explain?

Its a chain of stores in US which have all the 'emo' accessories and clothes. Amazingly, when I think Returns I think Phantom of the Opera and dark winter fairy tale, mascara wearing teenagers is the last thing that would come to my mind.

Another new member bashing Burtons movies. Amazing isnt it? Its the fifth within a week

 

[TruerToTheCore]

And yet there was absolutely NO gotham police to stop the now extremely expert kidnapping circus performers? Uhhh, ok. haha. If I was one of those kids and that weird lady with the stupid little poodle dog tried taking me away at night, she would get smacked up.

Returns I think is "darker" in it's visuals. It's also alot less serious than Batman '89. Batman '89 is more classic film noir based. Returns is even more fantasy based, and caters to Burton's gothic / emo / Hot Topic sense of style.

Well, to me the Burton Batman movies are nothing more than a Bizarro version of the Adam West show but not as accurate to the comics as the show was. Batman (89), despite its many flaws and Keaton's performance, I can still appreciate for what it is, but Batman Returns is just... meh... it's plain ******ed. The stole the plot from an episode of the Adam West show (""Hizzoner the Penguin"), Penguin running for mayor that is and put it into some sort of twisted fantasy reality where nothing really makes sense and the plot holes are the most dominant species. Seriously, if the movie was a little bit lighter and weaker, visually, fanboys would rip it to shreds.

Thank god Nolan (almost) gets it right, despite making the movies a little bit too dull at times to fit my view of Batman. So yeah, if you'd mix the visual style of the Batman 89 with the Batman's characterization of the Nolan movies and some of the fun and outlandish stuff of Batman Forever you'd get there.

 

[El Payaso]

Its a chain of stores in US which have all the 'emo' accessories and clothes. Amazingly, when I think Returns I think Phantom of the Opera and dark winter fairy tale, mascara wearing teenagers is the last thing that would come to my mind.

Another new member bashing Burtons movies. Amazing isnt it? Its the fifth within a week

And a few days after the last AlphalphaWolf incarnation was banned. Mmmmhhh.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Police is never quite smart in Batman movies. That's why everyone in Gotham knew the major was going to be the next Joker's victim in TDK. Yet a man with big scars in his mouth was able to get a uniform, a gun and place himself right next to the major and fire at him and nobody noticed. And nobody could notice him AFTER the incident so he could escape without further problem. Not even all those cops in the rooftops could. They could spot a window's curtain opening, but the Joker and his accomplice... no sir. Lousy security there. I mean, at least Penguin didn't announce what was his next move like Joker did. But the same could be said about Harvey Dent being freed by Joker when all the police were guarding the hospital, and what about the bank robbery, everyone saw the School bus coming out from that hole in the bank's wall, the police were even getting there in that moment. But they didn't do anything. See?

These are flaws in the writing. Nolan is just sloppy at times. It usually pissed me off to, since a good Batman story is usually a good detective story and those stories have to be well-written. It's not supposed to be Transformers.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I like Burton and Nolan movies the way they are. I got one bizzare Gothic version and one real world take, and both to me are equally fascinating on different levels. Wouldnt change a thing in them and I mean it. Well, the only thing I really dislike are the sonar eyes but thats it