Is Batman Returns darker than Batman89?

[Cain]

I found nothing "campy" about BR.

Really?!?

 

[El Payaso]

That's why BR can't surpass B89 for me. I absolutely loved that the penguins were Oswald's secret weapon. But it had to be done in a most threatening way. I mean killing people with their rockets. That could have been a great mix of camp and gritty, which I feel was the aim with BR, where the humour tends to balance the darkness of it.

But the streets were misteriously empty. In the end all you see are penguins running down the streets.

 

[The Morningstar]

Yea that is a problem i had with Returns. Gotham didn't seem like a living breathing city, like in 89.

I remember that shot at the start of 89 following the family who was about to be robbed. It just looked so alive. You had bums begging for money, prostitutes offering their services, police walking the beat. It was like a "on location" shot. The fact that it was all on a stage and was built from the ground up is still an amazing achievement to this day.

 

[El Payaso]

And when Joker was gassing people and Batman was diving down over the city, people were screaming, running for their lives, which brought a sense of emergency and threat, and, as you say, the feeling that the city was alive.

 

[The Joker]

How funny it would have been to see people running and screaming from the little penguins with their rockets lol.

 

[Cain]

How funny it would have been to see people running and screaming from the little penguins with their rockets lol.

Classic t:

Then you'd have the cops aiming their guns at them and being conflicted as to whether or not to shoot an otherwise innocent animal. There was so much potential for surreal brilliance there. Burton dropped the ball on that sequence.

 

[El Payaso]

How funny it would have been to see people running and screaming from the little penguins with their rockets lol.

Absolutely, untill one of them is hit by a rocket and we see his guts all over the wall.

Classic t:

Then you'd have the cops aiming their guns at them and being conflicted as to whether or not to shoot an otherwise innocent animal. There was so much potential for surreal brilliance there. Burton dropped the ball on that sequence.

Yes, it could have been something out there, to speak about for years. I mean, police being hesitant to shoot untill their cars are blown away.

 

[The Morningstar]

Put your... flippers up?

 

[El Payaso]

Put your... flippers up?

Haha. It'd have been similar to when those cops hesitated before Catwoman. They didn't think a girl was worthy of pulling his guns out. Then they had to think that again.

 

[AnneFan]

It comes down to intent. The Penguin did want to blow up Gotham. The empty streets I see as expressionism. A soulless, frozen empty wasteland with little hope. People off the streets by a certain time, hiding away. I can just imagine people looking through their windows anxiously at night, watching the Batmobile go by and such. The empty frozen expanses and what is lurking out there conjucres plenty of scary thoughts. You go out there, nobody is going to help you - except one man. The only brave people lurking essentially being clown crazies.

 

[Elevator Man]

Did you watch the fight scene with the Red Triangle Gang?

Yeah and we argued about that fight scene before in another thread. At least I was actually entertained by the fight scene and could actually see what's going on unlike BB. BB fight scenes left a lot to be desired. Besides Batman is fighting a circus gang what did you really expect? Burton went the right direction with it.

A poodle catching a batarang with its teeth?

That's pretty campy.

There's nothing campy about that scene I actually find that scene funny. The look on Batman's face was priceless. BTAS had moments like that. Where there's a hint of humor in a fight scene so I guess that's campy too then huh.

I actually agree with the poster who said that BR was both darker and campier than '89. That's one of the best descriptions of it I've heard.

Well I don't agree about it being "campy", but to each his own.

The movie just has such a sense of dread throughout most of it, and the fact that a lot of the dreadfulness is mixed in with the camp makes it a truly bizarre movie that's pretty ****ing awesome.

BR is definitely awesome.

Really?!?

BTAS had an episode where the Penguin controlled the Batmobile. So does that mean that it was a campy episode too? And the lame microwave emitter from BB is just as ridiculous. Since the human body is 70% water. And if people boil water wouldn't the steam manipulate the fear toxin?

 

[The Joker]

BTAS had an episode where the Penguin controlled the Batmobile. So does that mean that it was a campy episode too?

I think he means that Penguin was sitting in a kids toy ride Batmobile in order to control it. Penguin in BTAS had a little hand held remote control.

And the lame microwave emitter from BB is just as ridiculous. Since the human body is 70% water. And if people boil water wouldn't the steam manipulate the fear toxin?

That's not campy. That's just comic book science, like Doc Ock's reactor running on "rare" tritium in Spider-Man 2.

 

[Elevator Man]

I think he means that Penguin was sitting in a kids toy ride Batmobile in order to control it. Penguin in BTAS had a little hand held remote control.

So that makes it campy b/c he was sitting in a toy ride batmobile in order to control the real batmobile? What's next the Penguin's umbrella copter makes BR campy too? The movie is a freakin' fantasy.

That's not campy. That's just comic book science, like Doc Ock's reactor running on tritium in Spider-Man 2.

I didn't say it was campy. I said it was just as ridiculous.

 

[The Joker]

So that makes it campy b/c he was sitting in a toy ride batmobile in order to control the real batmobile?

Yes. It was a funny campy element. Just like the missile toting penguin army.

What's next the Penguin's umbrella copter makes BR campy too? The movie is a freakin' fantasy.

Since when can fantasy movies not have camp moments?

I didn't say it was campy. I said it was just as ridiculous.

You were discussing the campy element of the remote controlled Batmobile, and then said the microwave emitter was just as ridiculous as that. By implication you were calling that campy as well since camp was the factor under discussion, not the plausibility of comic book science.

 

[Mace Dolex]

It's sadder in the end. Penguin got a sadder story and fate (than Joker, let's say). Catwoman was all screwed too. Batman lost the love of his life. Nobody really won in the end. Ah, but Gotham was free from evil.

And Bruce picked up that stray cat at the end. AAawwwwwwwwwww

 

[El Payaso]

And Bruce picked up that stray cat at the end. AAawwwwwwwwwww

 

[Travesty]

I always thought it was funny that every citizen in Gotham had the exact same car, except for Selina. When the Batmobile was plowing through all the cars, when Penguin was controlling it, they were all the same model cars. It looks like a VW Jetta with the VW sign cut out in the front, and replaced by some light.

 

[AnneFan]

^ Ha, yeah. Burton social commentary about the repetitious, samey feel of suburbia, ala Edward Scissorhands? Everybody as one class. Batman has his Batmobile. Selina her own ride. The police have police cars. And the public their own same cars.

 

[El Payaso]

^ Ha, yeah. Burton social commentary about the repetitious, samey feel of suburbia, ala Edward Scissorhands? Everybody as one class. Batman has his Batmobile. Selina her own ride. The police have police cars. And the public their own same cars.

Hah, that's what I thought.

 

[ALP]

Anyone who says there's no camp in BR is smoking from the wrong stock. The film is full of Burton's trademark camp.

I think I prefer the city of Gotham in BR compared to B'89 just because BR is more timeless. Looking at B'89 today, it really does feel quite 80s.

 

[Elevator Man]

Anyone who says there's no camp in BR is smoking from the wrong stock. The film is full of Burton's trademark camp.

That comment must be directed at me. You know whats funny BR has more blood than both of Nolan's films combined. I'm not trying to turn this into a Nolan/Burton war either. Nolan's batfilms are more gritty and serious and yet there's hardly any blood in both. Hopefully TDKR there will be some blood mainly between both Bane and Batman. I hope the fight scenes between him and Bane are really brutal and not like anything we've seen in any batman film. But back on topic BR is hardly camp, imo. I'm not smoking or on anything b/c I stand by that opinion.

 

[ALP]

You're ludicrous if you think the film isn't campy and is incredibly dark just because there's blood in it.

Have you ever, in life, watched an R-rated Robert Rodriguez film? Blood, guts, gore, and camp. 100%.

About 3/4 of Burton's filmography is campy movies. Or do you also think Beetlejuice isn't campy?

 

[Elevator Man]

You're ludicrous if you think the film isn't campy and is incredibly dark just because there's blood in it.

Have you ever, in life, watched an R-rated Robert Rodriguez film? Blood, guts, gore, and camp. 100%.

About 3/4 of Burton's filmography is campy movies. Or do you also think Beetlejuice isn't campy?

Oh pipe down. I'm not talking about Burton's other movies. I'm talking about BR . I don't think it's campy. END OF DISCUSSION.

First you think I'm smoking something then you think I'm ludicrous. Why b/c my opinion differs from yours? Maybe you're the one who's ludicrous. Your attitude hasn't changed since your absence.

 

[ALP]

Oh pipe down. I'm not talking about Burton's other movies. I'm talking about BR . I don't think it's campy. END OF DISCUSSION.

First you think I'm smoking something then you think I'm ludicrous. Why b/c my opinion differs from yours? Maybe you're the one who's ludicrous. Your attitude hasn't changed since your absence.

I'd say it's mostly because you appear to be laboring under the delusion that anything deemed campy is negative. Therefore, you clearly wish to shake off any grounds of 'campy' being associated with BR so no one will think bad of it.

 

[Travesty]

I wouldn't consider Reutrns to be a campy movie, but it does have some "campy" moments in it, for sure.