Is DC more progressive than Marvel?

[Herr Logan]

First and foremost, I must commend the following list of people;


2)Herr Logan, I agree that Marvel has pretty much pissed on the childhood of people our age (I myself am 23). What I don't understand, is how people just sit around and take the abuse. I drop bad comics or aggrivating companies at the drop of a hat. When Superman went electric, I stopped reading DC. When Ben Reily took over as Spider-Man, I stopped reading Marvel. Any time I find the situation too disagreeable, I just stop spending my money on the books. Glad to see somebody else with that stance, even if your reasoning behind it, may differ.

Thank you kindly, Arach Knight.

I didn't give up all of Marvel at the first sign of trouble. It's hard to break my habits, and I like to read stuff during lunch and when I'm on the bus, etc., so I bought a lot of titles without opening them, hoping something cool would start happening. As each of my regular titles turned to $hit, I dropped them, and I also dropped titles that were not quite as terrible but were written by people responsible for ruining other titles (i.e. Bendis, etc.). I don't really care what happens in the future, or if they get back on track. My love affair with the Marvel Universe is over.

Herr Logan said it himself. He never had the money to keep up with DC and Marvel, so he just kept up with Marvel. Brand loyalty is as simple as that.

If by "company loyalty" you mean a person happens to buy products consistently from a particular company, then yeah, I was loyal.
If you mean it in a tribalistic way, where people "take sides" and exclude and/or defame competitors or alternatives, that's unforgivably stupid behavior. The idea that fans of one product would actually dislike fans of another based on their taste in entertainment is ridiculous. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it really baffles me that people can't control that part of themselves and act like enlightened, intelligent grownups.

When I was five years old and just found out about the glory of Superman (I saw the first movie on video then) and superheroes, I soon took a dislike towards Batman, since I somehow knew he was a kind of "rival" of Superman's. If I liked Superman, then Batman shouldn't be encroaching on Supes' territory. It was that simple in my mind.

Then I turned six, and that was all over, forever.

If I ever engage in a battle of words with a fan or user of a product that rivals my own preference, it's always in jest. That kind of petty tribalistic rivalry is the basis of every other kind of warfare. It comes from the same place as racism, sexism, nationalism (especially that), and so on. It's a part of our nature whose focus, if we want to live in a peaceful society, have to be diverted. Sublimation, in other words.

Why are there so many teens and adults walking around who haven't turned six yet?

 

[Arach Knight]

yes I meant brand loyalty in the sense of adhering to a particular brand, with frequent purchases. Not the whole fanboy idea of loyalty, in which it always boils down to "my company is better than yours." Which can sometimes be a legitimate statement, if approached correctly.

 

[Herr Logan]

That's really tough man. I feel your pain. Do you remember what it was about generally?

Generally, I agree with what was said there. As a DC continuity buff, you've got a pretty good grasp on the whole COIE issue, and why it was valid, etc., etc.

The way that Marvel was always about false advertising was not specifically about Spider-Man, but the way that they always claimed that they were fresh and new, giving you characters you could relate to, when in fact any relatability was entirely reader-generated. A superhuman is a superhuman. Not relatable. Their characters were always rehashed archetypes. The art didn't match up to with the script. Heroes fighting each other as a boring plot device was used and reused so many times, it was almost like this postmodern statement about the nature of morality, and the validity of terms like "hero" and "villain," but totally unintentionally.

What you see as modern Marvel's garbage...that's how Marvel has always been, as a general rule.

My main point was that I disagreed with your post as far as Marvel creating relatable heroes, especially the phrase, "in fact any relatability was entirely reader-generated". To me that doesn't make sense, since all relatability is entirely dependent on the observer as to whether the material relates to them or not.

I used Spider-Man as an example of a hero who is far more relatable to some people than other heroes, and why he's relatable to me. I also disproved the misconception that Peter Parker is an "everyman," as many ignorant people seem to believe, but that his being superior to most people in as many ways as he is (which doesn't even include superpowers in my aborted example) doesn't overshadow his obvious flaws, psychological and social problems.

I also went over how Spider-Man is widely seen and written by scholars as the first major teenaged superhero who wasn't a sidekick or a mascot. The term "major" is subjective, and I haven't read every superhero comic ever made, so I can't vouch either way for it as a solid fact. I accept the description, but don't assign any value to it over DC's range of accomplishments or failures. It's just a milestone in comic history, and DC could have done the same thing if Stan Lee and Steve Ditko had worked for DC.

What I can say is that Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four and the X-Men in particular were see as relatable heroes to a large amount of people. Whether that's more relatable than DC's heavy hitters or not, I don't really care. I also don't know-- or care-- who did it first, which is why I'm not arguing Marvel did it first. I'm saying unequivocally that Marvel Comics created heroes that were relatable to a lot of people. No real comparison made here, just that Marvel did it at all.

Most genre fiction is derivitive, so as long as the derivative creations are good in their own right, I don't care if they were heavily inspired by other people's creations (other than just knowing for knowing's sake). It's called a "rip-off" and so forth mainly when the product is deemed poor in quality in its own right.

Basically, I'm defending Marvel's earlier years on its own merits in regard to your statements against it, and not comparing it to DC.

 

[The Leaguer]

DC is better than Marvel.

 

[gildea]

3)Gildea, I never said DC didn't abandon the comics code authority. I was not selective with my point. I was quite clear. Your original statement emplied that Marvel was more progressive, because of their defiance of the comic code.

It wasn't my original statement.

I outlined the fact that it was per government request, and not because of any internal decision.

Well no, not true.
To do a drugs story was the governments idea, to do a drugs story without CCA approval was marvel decision. Also not giving them credit for using their biggest character is very unfair.

But when I say selective I was speaking in general towards most of your posts.
1. Your praise for black lightening but ignoring of storms leading the x-men back in the day and luke cage on the avengers (and marrying a white women and having a kid with her)
2. Your praise for the new batwoman igoring the fact that is generated complaints from lesbian action groups
3. Your (factually) wrong view on ultimate colossus.
4. Lack of comment on DC's own admission that they had a very 'white' universe.

For instance you seem to see the simple act of putting black lightening on a team as "untouchable" (I fail to see the significance in this day and age given the mixed race couple on marvels premier team or having storm lead a team in the 70's) yet rubbish what was a significant move by marvel (spidey/drugs) simply because it was a governement request. (again i repeat, stan could have easily altered the story fit CCA and/or used a lesser character in a one shot--thats why a lot of credit is deserved). To repeat simple moves by DC are praised in an ott manner and significant moves by marvel are either ignored (cause they happened so long ago) or dismissed.
Hence selective.

I should point out I have only seized on minority representation in the main universes in this thread and not other concepts of progressive storytelling.


I should also point out I'm really sorry if this comes across as having a go at you. You've an excellent writing style and this is the second thread recently you've started up that has maintained my interest so props to you. I just feel your recent view of marvel and DC is somewhat clouding your judgement on the companies as whole regarding this issue.

 

[Arach Knight]

1)That is my own fault on the whole Ultimate Colossus thing. I already know that he was a member of the Russian mob, he was out on the docks doing a job, when they first introduced him. I've actually read the first four hard volumes of Ultimate X-Men. So I have no idea where that unfactual outburst came from. probably the same place that the "e" in my "emplied" came from. How I missed the "I"...can't be explained haha

2)Black Lightning joined a political cabinet for the United States. Yes Storm now leads Wakanda since she is married to Black Panther, but that was an obvious gimmick to pull up the sagging sales of Black Panther.

3)If I had to highlight a Marvel multiracial relationship, I would choose Storm and Forge over Luke Cage and Jessica Jones. I am engaged to a white woman, being a black man myself, but I feel that the whole Luke/Jessica thing is very smitten with stereotypical references.

4)Yes Marvel did opt to use Spider-Man, but I feel that it is hardly worth merit. Marvel didn't come up with the idea, and given the stringent rules of the comics code at the time, I don't think Marvel would have ever done a story like that, unless approached by the govenment, like they were. Trying to find some redeemable quality in that seems more like stretching the scenario so Marvel can get some recognition, but...that's just too thin for my tastes. Besides, at that point in time, I don't recall Marvel publishing any unpopular material at the time. That story was written at the near pinnacle of the Stan-verse version of Marvel. If it wasn't Spidey it would have easily been Hulk, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, Namor etc etc.

5)I have no problem with homosexuality, so please, nobody take it the wrong way, when I say that some gay orginzations (not all), take things far more seriously than they need to. I mean, you have entire lesbian communities, rallying behind Xena, and that character was never officially gay. So if anybody has a problem with Batwoman being lesbian, that is clearly just people looking to ride coat tails and jump on a bandwagon.

6)DC does have a very white universe...but when I was a kid...so did Marvel. Strom, Black Panther and debatably Apocalypse (blackness and Egyptians is a long subject of debate that doesn't belong here) were the only note worthy black Marvel character, for a long time. Most folks don't even know that Cloak is black...and he and dagger are easily b-listers. Their best claim to fame was Maximum Carnage. Who else? Hammer and Anvil? I bet most people don't even know those characters (only one of them was black mind you). Black Panther didn't have his own book when I was a kid. Not for a long time in fact. He was brought around now and then in cross over or avengers books. The fact is, most of DC's black community sits on the sidelines. DC may have gone a long time without diversity, but the instant it was there, it was always in your face. For Marvel, that is hardly the case. How often do you see Falcon in a book? However, i've seen Black Adam, consistently, since i was a little boy. Same with John Stewart.

6)I don't feel that you are attacking me. This is a forum for comic books. And a place of debate. I tend not to take these situations seriously, unless I am being hounded by an antagonistic poster. That is rarely the case however. I think we can all get along, even if we disagree. To that affect, I can admit that my current disapproval for Marvel, is perhaps leaving some of my thoughts, more on the acrimonious side as of late, which has caused me to be more favorable of DC. So I may be exhibiting an inordinate amount of bias. And for that, I apologize. If I am to engage in a serious debate, I should check such feelings at the door, so to speak. Otherwise, you and I are still on good terms. I haven't been angry, upset or bothered for a single second

7)To those who are confused by my usage of the the word "progressive" it refers to...

Definition: n. A person who actively favors or strives for progress toward better conditions, as in society or government.

In this case, I am refering to the companies actively seeking to introduce racial diversity, sexual identities, political perspectives, social issues etc etc.

 

[Arach Knight]

As a sign of good faith, I will credit Marvel with two things

1)Marvel Civil War has positive intentions, as a vehicle for expression on current political affairs, even if I feel that it doesn't take the best approach. There are going to be a lot of propoganda books these days (such as Holy Terror Batman!), and Marvel is at the forefront of that...

2)Marvel did introduce the concept of relatable heroes. While another poster disagreed that such a thing exists, I must stress that Marvel has taken a better approach to the street level loners and average joe types (Luke Cage, Daredevil, Spider-Man). Too many DC mainstays are wealthy or heavily bank rolled

Diana - Princess/Ambassador
Bruce Wayne - Billionaire
Michael Holt (Mr.Terrific) - Millionaire
Green Arrow - Billionaire
Ted Kord - Millionaire
Booster Gold - Celebrity status/Millionaire
Black Adam - Ruler of soveirgn nation

That always bothered me about DC.

 

[fifthfiend]

Diana - Princess/Ambassador
Bruce Wayne - Billionaire
Michael Holt (Mr.Terrific) - Millionaire
Green Arrow - Billionaire
Ted Kord - Millionaire
Booster Gold - Celebrity status/Millionaire
Black Adam - Ruler of soveirgn nation

Eh, if you're willing to dip that deep into the roster, you can find at least as many Marvel members of the High Roller's club. Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic are billionares and hell, Thor's a god! And that's right off the Avenger's leadership. And it sure ain't like all those X-men are living in a roach-infested tenement, or nothin'.

Sure DC's got Diana, Bruce, I'll even throw in Arthur, King of the Seas, but they've also got Clark Kent, who worked his way up as a beat reporter, the Lanterns Green, who are variously pilots, architects, and freelance artists, and the Flashes, of whom Barry was a cop and Wally... well Wally's been a bunch of things, I guess, so I'm not sure where to fit that one.

I guess you could say DC leans middle/upper-middle class, where Marvel tends to be towards lower middle class/urban poor, but I'd call either one valid as a means of 'relatability'. Hell, I'm not even saying Marvel doesn't have more of a human touch to their characters, I just don't think that element has much correlation to the socioeconomic status of the heroes' alter-egos.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Marvel was progressive before progressive was acceptable. They had black heroes, "closet Jews" (ie Peter Parker, Ben Grimm) and gay rights subtext when these issues were still controversial.

Even today I don't see DC doing much on minority groups. I do not consider having incredibly beautiful, underdressed lesbian characters as being particularly progressive in itself. When DC actually has a semi-prominent gay male character (ie Northstar) then I'll consider them progressive.

 

[fifthfiend]

Wait... Peter Parker is Jewish?

 

[Pink Ranger]

Wait... Peter Parker is Jewish?

By many comic scholars, he's considered a "proxy" Jew. Remember that "Lee" isn't Stan's real last name; it's Lieber, but he changed it because anti-Semitism was still rife when he started out. Therefore, a lot of serious comic analysts see Peter Parker as being the same thing, a character who's supposed to be Jewish but couldn't actually be, because of the time he was introduced in.

I'm quoting from another source, but for example, Parker had many of the stereotypical traits associated with Jewish New Yorkers; he lives in Queens, is at first a bespectacled scholarly nerd, and in many ways still is one. A lot of writers have even drawn attention to it in the past, like Bendis having Spiderman dropping Yiddisms in his speech on occasion.

 

[GNR]

I've seen the argument a million times,heck I even argued it myself.

"Marvel's heroes are more relatable than DC's!"

Marvel's people have that "everyman" feel to them especially with guys like Pete,Murdock,and the Hulk.DC does as well,but Marvel has always been known for this.They're all misunderstood Joes and stuff barely works out in their favor.Adding on the fact that their origin stories are far from complicated and grounded in our world,Marvel's heroes will have that tendency to be more relatable.

On the other side we have DC,which I consider the other side of the coin.DC is the land where the Icons,even God-like beings,roam the earth,or earths.Sometimes we want our heroes to be relatable and almost at our level,other times we want our heroes to be the god-like Saviors who we look up to in the sky.DC's approach is pretty much the latter and I commend them for it.I don't see what's so wrong with the simple concept of larger than life heroes who simply want to do good in the world.

I'm voting for neither,I feel as long as both companies stick to their guns,reading comics will be exciting for years to come,no matter what type of hero you enjoy.

 

[marcofthebeast]

Supermans creators were jewish. So by proxy Superman was the first jewish superhero.

 

[fifthfiend]

He was, he totally was. He was Baby Space Moses and all of you know it.

 

[Pink Ranger]

Supermans creators were jewish. So by proxy Superman was the first jewish superhero.

I think if you read the "Justice League of Ancients" storyline, they make a veiled reference to Superman's semetic ancestry through another new character.

Also, the "El" suffix at the end of his and his dad's Kryptonian names is from ancient Hebrew, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[marcofthebeast]

:: Note To Self, Write a song called Baby Space Moses ::

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think if you read the "Justice League of Ancients" storyline, they make a veiled reference to Superman's semetic ancestry through another new character.

Also, the "El" suffix at the end of his and his dad's Kryptonian names is from ancient Hebrew, if I'm not mistaken.

"El" is from ancient Hebrew (means "God" or "of God," if I'm not mistaken), but in the comics it comes from Kryptonian. Nothing's been shown to suggest Superman's Jewish that I know of. I could be wrong, since I haven't read a tenth of all the Superman material in existence, but what I have read has pretty uniformly avoided religion altogether or shown Superman associated with Christian holidays like Christmas.

The Hebrew "superman" of the ancient JLA'ers could be a good argument that Superman's Jewish, except that none of the other ancient JLA'ers correspond to any of the modern JLA'ers. The suggestion that the ancient Hebrew JLA'er somehow implies that Superman himself is Jewish is a grasp at straws at best.

Before anyone misconstrues this, by the way, I have no problem with Supes' being Jewish. I don't really care about any character's religion because I don't care much about religion in general. But the evidence just isn't there to support it in the comics, as far as I've seen.

 

[fifthfiend]

He Rocketed Through Space To The Promised Land
To Deliver Us From Tyranny
Oh Baaaaaaaby Space Moses
Come And Set Us Free

 

[gildea]

2)Black Lightning joined a political cabinet for the United States. Yes Storm now leads Wakanda since she is married to Black Panther, but that was an obvious gimmick to pull up the sagging sales of Black Panther.

Actually I've been caught out at my own game of not commenting on something.

I actually found this gimmick pretty offensive. It really does seem to be a marraige based on the skin colour of the characters.

So if anybody has a problem with Batwoman being lesbian, that is clearly just people looking to ride coat tails and jump on a bandwagon.

Dunno, the majority of the posters seem to agree with their point that the whole batwoman lesbian thing is just a gimmick for fan boys.

For Marvel, that is hardly the case. How often do you see Falcon in a book? However, i've seen Black Adam, consistently, since i was a little boy. Same with John Stewart.

Falcon's doing pretty well in civil war. They also had cap and falcon for a bit. I concede the black adam is certainly in a much stronger position at the moment (probably the best arc in 52).

6)DC does have a very white universe...but when I was a kid...so did Marvel.

You're only a couple of years younger than myself but there was definetly some prominant black characters around when you were younger storm as mentioned (who was leading the xmen at the time), james rhodes to was iron man for a time (and in secret war, which was actually touched upon).
Both very prominant.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Don't forget Robbie Robertson, the heart and soul of the Daily Bugle for virtually its entire existence. He was one of the best parts of Spider-Man's supporting cast back when Spider-Man had a supporting cast.

 

[gildea]

Don't forget Robbie Robertson, the heart and soul of the Daily Bugle for virtually its entire existence. He was one of the best parts of Spider-Man's supporting cast back when Spider-Man had a supporting cast.

Or his son randy...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, he was cool as Peter's roommate. But that was after writers decided that Peter's use for a supporting cast had withered to dust, so he didn't really do much other than chase skirts in the background.

 

[Darthphere]

Nah, it was because hes black.

 

[Arach Knight]

I guess you could say DC leans middle/upper-middle class, where Marvel tends to be towards lower middle class/urban poors

Most Marvel heroes are average joes. Sure you have the likes of Professor X, Black Panther & Storm, Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Sub Mariner...but DC just seems more abundant with the idea of upper crust/wealthy people championing the cause of the weak. It has been the super hero archetype for some time (Robin Hood, Scarlet Pumpernickel, Zorro), but it isn't as belivable as a high school joe, growing up and fighting crime (Spider-Man) or even a probono lawyer in Hell's kitchen (a real section of New York) that spends his nights moonlighting with vigilantism (Daredevil). And here are just a few other notable examples of DC upper crust heroes. I'm not trying to turn my tyrade in favor of Marvel. I'm merely exercising the point that I do have my qualms with DC. They just aren't as innumerated as the qualms I have with Marvel. I never liked the idea that DC has so many well to do super heroes. It undermines the whole "but they are regular people who train" idea.

Aquaman - King
Huntress - Mob family wealth
Batwoman - Wealthy family
Starman - self driven wealth
Phantom Lady - Family wealth
Hakwman -Reincarnated Egyptian pharoh
Hawkgirl - See Hawkman

there was definetly some prominant black characters around when you were younger

Not really....I mean Bishop rolled around eventually...but beyond that, Black Panther couldn't even have been called an afterthought when I was growing up. More like a long forgotten relic. Storm was there...but so was Black Ranger in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. Storm's 80's status can easily be deemed token status. She tried to solve two problems at once, by introducing a strong female to counter Wonder Woman, while introducing a strong black lead. Black Panther didn't even get his own book until 1973 (even though his first appearence was as a villain, in 1966). By 1973, DC already gave Mr.Miracle III his own spot in the Mr.Miracle book, and by 1977 DC gave Black Lightning his own leading book. Sorry to say, but I think Marvel was pretty lagging on the ethnic character thing. Having them in the catalog is one thing, but using them and prominetly, is another. Marvel tends to let their non white characters fall into the wayside. Truthfully, Storm and Bishop seem to exist as an anomaly of success that isn't shared with other Marvel characters. Warpath? Forge? Rocket Racer? The average child or adult isn't going to recognize any of those names. But kids may remember the recent Static Shock cartoon series. Kids can easily point out John Stewart. And Black Lightning was at least the subject of an SNL parody.

 

[Darthphere]

Black Panther didn't even get his own book until 1973 (even though his first appearence was as a villain, in 1966).

Thats not spinning it at all right?