Is DC more progressive than Marvel?

[SpideyInATree]

In the grand scheme of things Marvel has always been the progressive out of the two. Though recently, I'd say in the past 10 years or so, DC has slowly been meeting up with Marvel on that front. In all honesty, both companies are very progressive as the comic book industry is grasping for younger people to continue the tradition of comic books. You HAVE to progress in order to survive, and that's in any type of art form.

Whether it's a gimmick or not, it's still an attempt to be progressive and move things forward instead of sticking with the same old song and dance, which..in my opinion...is worse than changing something for the worse.

That sig is stupid.

Its not the sig itself, its the statement behind it. Everytime I pick up a marvel comic, I know I have a pair of Aces in my hand, you just gotta know what to read and stop reading the crap.

Yeah, what he said. Honestly, people take their anger toward Marvel and Joe Quesada a little too far. I get angry at Marvel for doing stupid things but I'm not going to hold it against the writers/artists who are out there each and every month putting out quality work.

 

[gildea]

I think a supporting character in a major comic event as well as a supporting character in the number one book right now, is way better than being the lead in a book that is utterly failing, at 85th out of 100. Black Lightning used to have a book. In fact they've tried several times
Just like the Black Panther.

Yes but BP has many many more issues than BL? What was the longest run of a BL title?
But if we're going on being a supporting character in something then we should give the nod to marvel as falcon is a very significant character in CW which is sellng far above anything at the moment.

You act as if being in a solo book, means something. It just means the company wants to see a character do well. Not that they are, doing well.

Given the we are discussing the companies actions and NOT the markets response to them if the company wants to see them do well it definetly fits your definition of progressive (which was ENTIRELY to do with the companies treatment of the characters and not the comic's sales (read market response).

Giving a character a solo book does mean something, can't really see why you think it doesn't. It's a far stronger prootion of minorities to have a solo book than a supporting star in the shadow of bats, supes and ww.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, what he said. Honestly, people take their anger toward Marvel and Joe Quesada a little too far. I get angry at Marvel for doing stupid things but I'm not going to hold it against the writers/artists who are out there each and every month putting out quality work.

That's right. You should hold it against the writers/artists who are out there each and every month putting out crap.

 

[The Leaguer]

Yeah, what he said. Honestly, people take their anger toward Marvel and Joe Quesada a little too far. I get angry at Marvel for doing stupid things but I'm not going to hold it against the writers/artists who are out there each and every month putting out quality work.

I know exactly what you mean. I never hold it against Ennis. It's just everyone else that sucks.

 

[Arach Knight]

1)SpideyInATree, your post was very articulated. Kudos to adding some intelligence to the debate

2)Gildea, I was merely responding to the mini-debate, not the over all discussion. Things began to focus on Black Panther, so we went on about Black Panther vs. Black Lightning. Besides, I already said that I felt Black Panther is pretty gimmicky at the moment, with the whole Storm thing. But, SIAT did bring up a point, that gimmick driven or not...it is an effort to change things. So I have to appreciate and some what concede, to that point.

 

[Kitsune]

I'd like to point out that at one point... this was DC's idea of progressive.

 

[The Leaguer]

Wow, what a fantastic representation of today's DC comics. Kitsune ended it, everyone. No need to keep posting. He has presented us with a perfectly valid and relevant example of how Marvel is more progressive.

 

[Arach Knight]

I don't see how making Lois Lane black, can be insulting to the companies view point. Unless they were having her be Cleopatra Jones, I don't see the big deal. Given the fact that we don't know what the issue is about, for all we know, should could have went under cover to stop a Klan rally. Kitsune FTF...

 

[Kitsune]

Geeze, I guess I can't introduce something humorus without putting a smiley face on the post somewhere.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No, you can't introduce anything humorous with Leaguer in the thread somewhere. He's very territorial about that sort of thing. And, just like a dog, he'll piss on you if you encroach on his turf.

 

[Kitsune]

No, you can't introduce anything humorous with Leaguer in the thread somewhere. He's very territorial about that sort of thing. And, just like a dog, he'll piss on you if you encroach on his turf.

Not that I'm really one to talk, but you'd think that if he acts that way, he'd be better at it.

 

[The Leaguer]

Why are you still posting here. The thread is over. Kitsune ended it with a masterful stroke.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

When you make the decision to publish a story counter to the CC you are deciding to reject it.

thats pretty simple.

Not if the story's not your idea.

Oddly enough they wanted to use BL on JLU but weren't allowed.

Shoulda used Black Vulcan...

Regarding BL vs BP for the past 5 years there has been a BP book (which joe Q used to hype all the time under priest in interviews at least). BP was in the avengers on and off recently as well.

Really don't think BL comes close in terms of exposure.

You don't understand how much SuperFriends defines the superhero image in pop culture. Aquaman will never be anything but laughable in the mainstream because of that show. Bizarro is an adjective used frequently to describe wierd **** because of that show.

 

[droogiedroogie2]

lol i hated New Warriors, but IMO Black lightning is more Morgan Freeman, while Black Panther is closer to Denzel Washington.

Is it intentional that you compare BL to the (clearly) better actor?

 

[droogiedroogie2]

I'd like to point out that at one point... this was DC's idea of progressive.

You know, a white person volunteering to be black is pretty unheard of. Pretty risky, at that time.

I will grant that I had not understood "Curious" to be so synonymous with "Black" as to warrant including "black" as a descriptive parenthetical to help illuminate what was meant by "Curious."

 

[batnkevlar]

As much as I believe DC is doing well in the progression department, the fact that Lightning and Grace are bisexual gets to me... it's obviously a shock value lesbian fetish... as much as I love lesbians, i can watch porn... keep the wuality for comics...

 

[Green Lantern]

What, lesbians can't appreciate a good-looking woman? I'm sure there's someplace where Arsenal's almost gotten killed in the same way.

He knocked up a SUPERVILLAIN. If thats not hazardous to one's health, I don't know what is.

well i also have to give it to marvel comics for creating thier "Ulimate line" to appeal to new readers.DC has its All-star Line, which harkins back to an age that i[andalot of people] was not alive to care about. Dc needs to start their "ultimate" line and try and bring in new readers that were not born in the 60s or 70s. Dc big problem is that they depend on a ageing fanbase instead of trying to bring in some fresh readers. All-star superman only works if you have a vast knowledge of superman in comics, All-star Batman on the other hand only works if you have vast knowledge of Frank Millar. Why not release books for younger and new reader, Marvel has it mangaverse,A-next,its Mary Jane loves spider-man and a entire brand for teenage comics and for young reader. DC has not done enough to connect to todays generation.

As was stated earlier in this thread, Marvel's amazingly "unique" Ultimate line is doing what "Heroes Reborn" tried to do before it, and what Marv Wolfman and the DC writers of the mid to late 1980s accomplished with Crisis on Infinite Earths.

As much as people are ragging on Judd Winick for his overuse of social issues, one can't forget how immensely hard hitting the "Hate Crime" issues of his Green Lantern run were, before his overindulgence in the controversial.

 

[gildea]

Not if the story's not your idea.

I've the feeling given you're other posts theat you're being deliberately obtuse but i'll give this another go....

The goverment asked marvel to do an anti drugs story. Thats it. Everything else was marvels decision. The content, the character, the rejecting of the CC. Everything.
The government did not write the story, did not tell them to ignore the CC and did not even tell them to use spider-man.

I accept there seems to be some sort of mental block on you regarding marvel and giving it any type of credit so this is probably a fruitless venture.

You don't understand how much SuperFriends defines the superhero image in pop culture. Aquaman will never be anything but laughable in the mainstream because of that show. Bizarro is an adjective used frequently to describe wierd **** because of that show.

I think you're overestimating its importance. The man on the street will not know who black lightning is, its a simple as that. (unless of course you've several studies to back up your claims which i doubt). How many episodes was he in anyway??

 

[droogiedroogie2]

He was in the season with all the ethnic characters.

 

[Arach Knight]

Now the real mystery to be solved here, is which came first? A comics code approved story about Speedy being a Junkie, or the story about Harry. I would find it odd if the DC story came first....because supposedly it was against the code at the time.

 

[Zenien]

DC allowed their story to reach print as a result of Marvel breaking the CC. After the Spider-Man story was written without the CC approval, the CC loosened its restrictions in the face of critism and as a reaction to the acclaim Marvel recieved for publishing the story. DC almost certainly wouldn't have published their story otherwise.

One such story took place in the controversial issues #96-98 (May-Jul. 1971). Stan Lee defied the Comics Code Authority with this story, in which the Green Goblin’s son, Harry Osborn, was hospitalized after tripping on LSD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amazing_Spider-Man

Lee wrote this story as a response to a request from The US Department of Health, Education and Welfare for a story about the dangers of drugs. The Comics Code Authority refused to put their seal on these issues because they depicted drug use (despite the anti-drugs context of the story). With the approval of Marvel publisher Martin Goodman, Lee had the comics published without the CCA seal. The comics sold well and Marvel won praise for its socially-conscious efforts. The CCA subsequently loosened the Code to permit negative depictions of drugs, among other new freedoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amazing_Spider-Man

Green Lantern/Green Arrow #85 (August/September, 1971)

Neal Adams drew the cover, which showed Green Arrow’s youthful side-kick, Speedy, shooting heroin. Editor Julius Schwartz did not want it published. Neither did publisher Carmine Infantino. It appeared that the cover which had no story would be forgotten. But over at Marvel, Stan Lee had green-lit Amazing Spider-Man #96, which featured pills and presented an anti-drug message without the Comics Code Authority seal. Facing opposition and controversy, the Comics Code Authority revised its rules in regard to what could and could not be presented in comic books and, while still restrictive, became more lenient. As a result, DC approved Adams’ cover and O’Neil wrote a two-part story involving drugs with Speedy being hooked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Jordan

 

[Arach Knight]

You helped prove my point actually. The Spider-Man story was printed May-Jul, where as the DC story was Aug-Sep (the months following) But the key words, are that the DC artist for that book at the time, had already drawn the cover long before, and that the story was merely shelved. This doesn't tell us who came up with their story first. It wouldn't be the first time that such things have happened. Swamp Thing came out actually a month later than Man-Thing, even though it has been confirmed that the creators of each, were actually room mates at the time, un-aware of each others creations, who had literally come up with the same idea at the same time. It's a frequent historical occurence. It may have happened in this case too. I have no doubt that Marvel's publishing choice, influenced DC's choice (who was without government backing/requests for such a story), but it seems the DC staff had already been entertaining the idea.