James Bond: 007 - Spectre - Part 10

[DarthSkywalker]

Oh, and nanoblood shouldn't be an issue IMO because they already had that in CR.

They placed a tracker in Bond's arm in CR. One that could be removed, and eventually was. They specifically went for blood so it couldn't be removed.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Silva being a SPECTRE guy doesn't bother me for essentially two reasons. He's a rouge agent of MI6 and it makes sense that he would elicit bankrolling from some larger organization. It also doesn't mean that his actions were contrived or dictated by Waltz. Rather...he had a vendetta and exercised an option that was mutually beneficial to him.

Partner (loosely) with a large operation while still being able to do as he pleases and more expertly and tactically carry out his revenge.

I never took it that he was ordered around by our big baddie this time.

Funding for a guy who was able to steal a billion bucks in an instant due to his hacking skills (that he presumably learned in MI6)?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Funding for a guy who was able to steal a billion bucks in an instant due to his hacking skills (that he presumably learned in MI6)?

People seem to miss how SPECTRE is presented in this movie. The all work for Blofeld. They are all beholden to him. They can't even speak out of turn at the meeting. Look at how terrified those that talked were of messing up. They showed a very specific kind of group that wouldn't work with Silva.

 

[The Guard]

He does work alone. He is his own boss. He takes the jobs he wants. That is the point. If he worked for someone else, he'd have to take their orders.

No. He does not work alone. He had all kinds of soldiers and so on working with him.

Lot of people hung up on this "Working FOR" thing. Has no one heard the term "Working WITH"?

His role need not have been one of subservience.

Why would someone join SPECTRE in the first place? The power players? I kind of doubt because they have to.

The scene placed all the villians from the last 3 films in SPECTRE. Working for SPECTRE. That was the point of the scene. It is why they put people we know were a part of SPECTRE like White and Greene, on the same page as Silva.

I'll have to take your word for it.

Still changes nothing about Silva as a character. Actually, it adds to him, because now he's not just a rebel and a badass, but he's also part of a badass global terrorist organization. I don't think it detracts from him as a character at all. There's nothing to suggest he still couldn't pick his own missions and do what he wanted to do.

Do you remember why Bond is at the meeting? Why the meeting is taking place? Because M knew that Sciarra's death would force a meeting of all the major players in SPECTRE to show up to pick his successor.

What's that have to do with Silva?

If everyone is at that meeting, who is doing the dirty work?

quote]So just because you want to buy it doesn't mean anyone else has too. They can call it what it is. BS that hurts the overall idea and individual movies.

I could say the same about assumptions about the nature of Silva's relationship with SPECTRE, about him being a pawn, suddenly a weaker character, etc.

 

[SheldonLevene]

Funding for a guy who was able to steal a billion bucks in an instant due to his hacking skills (that he presumably learned in MI6)?

Sure...that's a fair point. Bankrolling/funding can mean a lot of things. Protection, henchmen, resources (helicopters, vast server banks, an island etc.).

I'm not saying it was a necessary connection, but rather one that didn't bother me much because you could logically work through a reason for there to be a relationship.

 

[redfirebird2008]

People seem to miss how SPECTRE is presented in this movie. The all work for Blofeld. They are all beholden to him. They can't even speak out of turn at the meeting. Look at how terrified most of them look at it. They showed a very specific kind of group that wouldn't work with Silva.

The whole thing doesn't add up. Dave Bautista's loyalty to Blofeld sucks too. Bautista seems to be a smart guy in his own right based on his actions in the film. He is obviously much stronger than Blofeld. Why not take out Blofeld and become the ruler of the SPECTRE roost? Blofeld is simply not believable as an intimidating villain in this film.

 

[SheldonLevene]

People seem to miss how SPECTRE is presented in this movie. The all work for Blofeld. They are all beholden to him. They can't even speak out of turn at the meeting. Look at how terrified those that talked were of messing up. They showed a very specific kind of group that wouldn't work with Silva.

None of those people in the room had a connection to MI6 either. Which, given his background, seems to be something he would be careful to nurture. Realizing that Silva represented a unique opportunity for him/the organization.

 

[The Guard]

People seem to miss how SPECTRE is presented in this movie. The all work for Blofeld. They are all beholden to him. They can't even speak out of turn at the meeting. Look at how terrified those that talked were of messing up. They showed a very specific kind of group that wouldn't work with Silva.

SPECTRE is run like a corporation. That's how corporate meetings work. You defer to the head of the organization at big meetings.

A couple of them were shown as terrified. Not all of them. Some of them were very stoic. I doubt Silva would fall into that category anyway.

 

[redfirebird2008]

None of those people in the room had a connection to MI6 either. Which, given his background, seems to be something he would be careful to nurture. Realizing that Silva represented a unique opportunity for him/the organization.

Maybe...but maybe they just tried to shoehorn the two movies together when it wasn't necessary. I think there is more evidence for this than the other theories. The script was not written before Skyfall was made, so there is plenty of reason to believe that all of this stuff with SPECTRE is just retconning.

Heck, there is even stuff in Quantum of Solace that makes you think Quantum is the modern SPECTRE (end all be all of criminal organizations) and there is no "organization within an organization" thing going on. I feel like this new movie was just an attempt to up the ante on the Quantum conspiracy and it falls flat.

 

[SheldonLevene]

Maybe...but maybe they just tried to shoehorn the two movies together when it wasn't necessary. I think there is more evidence for this than the other theories. The script was not written before Skyfall was made, so there is plenty of reason to believe that all of this stuff with SPECTRE is just retconning.

Heck, there is even stuff in Quantum of Solace that makes you think Quantum is the modern SPECTRE (end all be all of criminal organizations) and there is no "organization within an organization" thing going on. I feel like this new movie was just an attempt to up the ante on the Quantum conspiracy and it falls flat.

Yeah - I think you're completely spot on. I think it was a case of retconning for the sake of this film, but I'm just advocating that it wasn't that poorly executed when you examine all of the potential context.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No. He does not work alone. He had all kinds of soldiers and so on working with him.

Lot of people hung up on this "Working FOR" thing. Has no one heard the term "Working WITH"?

His role need not have been one of subservience.

Why would someone join SPECTRE in the first place? The power players? I kind of doubt because they have to.

Make up your mind. In the last post you said him having employees didn't matter, now you say it does.

No one else he works with is on his level. He is the boss. They work for him. This really isn't hard.

I'll have to take your word for it.

Still changes nothing about Silva as a character. Actually, it adds to him, because now he's not just a rebel and a badass, but he's also part of a badass global terrorist organization. I don't think it detracts from him as a character at all. There's nothing to suggest he still couldn't pick his own missions and do what he wanted to do.

This is very dishonest. Of course it changes everything. If this was going on, why were they never mentioned?

What's that have to do with Silva?

If everyone is at that meeting, who is doing the dirty work?

AT that moment? No one. The reason why M sent Bond there is because everyone had to be there. That is why she had him kill Sciarra. It is all presented in the movie. That is why the script is so weak.

You are admitting you either missed or don't quite remember a lot of scenes, and yet you are acting like you are watching the movie right now, knowing what they presented.

Silva isn't a random bomber you hire. He would be the equivalent of Batista, Sciarra or Mr. White in this movie or one of the other men in the room. Notice they didn't send random henchmen after Bond? They sent Batista and he lead the pursuit. He did it himself. Just look at the car chase and the train scene.

I could say the same about assumptions about the nature of Silva's relationship with SPECTRE, about him being a pawn, suddenly a weaker character, etc.

The difference is, one does not need to do mental gymnastics to make it work.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

None of those people in the room had a connection to MI6 either. Which, given his background, seems to be something he would be careful to nurture. Realizing that Silva represented a unique opportunity for him/the organization.

How do you know none of the others in the room had a connection to MI6? Do you remember QoS?

"First thing you should know about us, we have people everywhere". Then an MI6 agent starts killing other MI6 agents.

 

[The Guard]

I don't really think it's so difficult as to be called "mental gymnastics".

I think assuming that Silva suddenly now isn't the character he was in SKYFALL or that his belonging to SPECTRE changes EVERYTHING takes more mental gymnastics, all things considered.

 

[Frankeh]

Oh I don't know, considering the moment they got out there, she and everyone in her car got shot at, maybe she should of had a gun. Why did M and Bond have guns?

That is even worse, because M brought Bond equipment at the meeting. Why wouldn't he arm Moneypenny? The point is, she knows how to use a gun, and yet didn't have one when she clearly needed one and the boys were playing Rambo.

I don't recall the equipment scene very well, so fair point, maybe I'll have to go for a rewatch. But I stand by my view that her role is good and better than in most Bond films, don't get the "Naomie Harris is wasted" criticism.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't really think it's so difficult as to be called "mental gymnastics".

I think assuming that Silva suddenly now isn't the character he was in SKYFALL or that his belonging to SPECTRE changes EVERYTHING takes more mental gymnastics, all things considered.

Silva was presented as a lone wolf, out for revenge against the woman he saw as his mother. He was a parallel for Bond, who himself is isolated and alone. His one meaningful relationship? His "mother". Silva's rat story emphasizes his loner status.

Then this movie makes it Blofeld's plan. He is the author of all of Bond's pain, including the loss of his "mother". He also killed his "father".

 

[The Guard]

Make up your mind. In the last post you said him having employees didn't matter, now you say it does.

Where did I say anything doesn't matter? Context, please.

No one else he works with is on his level. He is the boss. They work for him. This really isn't hard.

I wasn't arguing that he wasn't the boss. I was arguing your assertion that he worked alone. He doesn't.

This is very dishonest. Of course it changes everything. If this was going on, why were they never mentioned?

What’s dishonest now?
Why would they mention it before they came up with the idea?

AT that moment? No one. The reason why M sent Bond there is because everyone had to be there. That is why she had him kill Sciarra. It is all presented in the movie. That is why the script is so weak.

Let me see if I understand you. Your assertion is that the only people who worked for SPECTRE were in that room?

You are admitting you either missed or don't quite remember a lot of scenes, and yet you are acting like you are watching the movie right now, knowing what they presented.

Actually I’ve said I don’t recall the specifics of ONE sequence. Not “a lot of scenes”.
How am I acting like I am watching the movie right now?

Silva isn't a random bomber you hire. He would be the equivalent of Batista, Sciarra or Mr. White in this movie or one of the other men in the room. Notice they didn't send random henchmen after Bond? They sent Batista and he lead the pursuit. He did it himself. Just look at the car chase and the train scene.

What’s your point, exactly?

The difference is, one does not need to do mental gymnastics to make it work.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't recall the equipment scene very well, so fair point, maybe I'll have to go for a rewatch. But I stand by my view that her role is good and better than in most Bond films, don't get the "Naomie Harris is wasted" criticism.

Giving Moneypenny something to do in the final act would have not been difficult. She was literally just there. They emphasis how they need to help Bond, and then she is the only one who doesn't.

 

[godisawesome]

Waltz did do that hilarious bit where he rolled over in his chair using his slippers. Added some color to what was otherwise the most generic interrogation scene in the franchise.

And I'll admit, they Silva reveal isn't really horrible in what it reveals, but it's so underdeveloped that it feels needless. If you want continuity in the film, exploit it well. The ring scene seems wasted because it's very vague and badly executed because of its deus ex machina nature. Like I mentioned before, either Bloefeld or Mr. White could have used the scene that would be required to exposit that information. And while I like the idea of the ring, there's no real reason to make it "hack able" outside of lazy screenwriting.

 

[The Guard]

Silva was presented as a lone wolf, out for revenge against the woman he saw as his mother. He was a parallel for Bond, who himself is isolated and alone. His one meaningful relationship? His "mother". Silva's rat story emphasizes his loner status.

Except he wasn't a lone wolf. He worked with all kinds of associates.

The rat story is not about being a loner. What is the moral of the story, that loners ate loners? That's silly.

What do meaningful relationships have to do with anything when it comes to whether he'd work for SPECTRE?

Then this movie makes it Blofeld's plan. He is the author of all of Bond's pain, including the loss of his "mother". He also killed his "father".

Blofeld never says it was his plan. He says he was the author of all James' pain. An incredibly vague statement that includes nothing about who planned what. Are members of SPECTRE not allowed to come up with their own plans now?

 

[TeeKay]

Silva was presented as a lone wolf, out for revenge against the woman he saw as his mother. He was a parallel for Bond, who himself is isolated and alone. His one meaningful relationship? His "mother". Silva's rat story emphasizes his loner status.

Then this movie makes it Blofeld's plan. He is the author of all of Bond's pain, including the loss of his "mother". He also killed his "father".

Disappointing to say the least.

 

[Schlosser85]

Silva drew a parallel between himself and Bond as the "last two rats", but while they were both renegades to an extent, Bond still worked for MI6, so why is it automatically contradictory to that parallel to imagine Silva also worked for or at least was allied/affiliated with Spectre?

Bond has a tendency to do whatever the **** he wants, but he's still an employee of MI6. He's not and has never been a complete loner.

 

[The Guard]

Waltz did do that hilarious bit where he rolled over in his chair using his slippers. Added some color to what was otherwise the most generic interrogation scene in the franchise.

I thought Waltz gave a very good performance. He was a lot more subtle than he usually is, and resisted the urge to chew scenery much. A lot of people seem to be used to his wild and crazy evil persona, and I guess they think it's harder to do that and consider that better acting, better suited for Blofeld? I dunno. He didn't have a lot to work with, but he certainly made it work.

And I'll admit, they Silva reveal isn't really horrible in what it reveals, but it's so underdeveloped that it feels needless. If you want continuity in the film, exploit it well. The ring scene seems wasted because it's very vague and badly executed because of its deus ex machina nature. Like I mentioned before, either Bloefeld or Mr. White could have used the scene that would be required to exposit that information. And while I like the idea of the ring, there's no real reason to make it "hack able" outside of lazy screenwriting.

I've said this before, but I don't think Bond cares about the "reveals", and that's how it's played. He's just out to stop Blofeld because Blofeld needs stopped. The personal stuff doesn't seem to phase him much psychologically.

And I don't think it's so much that Silva is connected to SPECTRE that's supposed to be impactful so much as the existence of SPECTRE itself, and it's role in Bond and MI6's troubles over the years.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Where did I say anything doesn't matter? Context, please.



I wasn't arguing that he wasn't the boss. I was arguing your assertion that he worked alone. He doesn't.

The point is that he is his own man, who is not beholden to anyone. He "works alone". Him hiring people does not change that. It is exactly why he parallels Bond.

What’s dishonest now?
Why would they mention it before they came up with the idea?

It completely changes the nature of what is going on. It is a retcon, done down the line.

Let me see if I understand you. Your assertion is that the only people who worked for SPECTRE were in that room?

The people who make decisions? Yes. No random person they hire is going to kill anyone without their say so. More importantly, the scene showed how their Fixers work.

The reason why they needed to replace Sciarra, was because he was the fixer, a role Mr. White had in the past, the one responsible for killing their high profile targets. That is why they needed to have someone new take the role before they hunted The Pale King. Because they wouldn't send someone random. They pick from within the organization, which is why they are so off the radar.

Once Batista takes up the role, he is the one hunting the targets. Not random people, him.

Considering Blofeld's relationship with Bond, literally no one else is a higher profile target. Blofeld literally went after him, himself.

Actually I’ve said I don’t recall the specifics of ONE sequence. Not “a lot of scenes”.
How am I acting like I am watching the movie right now?

You seem to not understand what happened at the meeting either. Both scenes are critical to the structure of SPECTRE.

What’s your point, exactly?

That they showed who does the killing, and it isn't random people. The Fixer carries it out.

 

[TeeKay]

I think The Guard you need to watch the film again. Seems like in your posts, you're either assuming things or just don't remember how certain scenes played out.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Silva drew a parallel between himself and Bond as the "last two rats", but while they were both renegades to an extent, Bond still worked for MI6, so why is it automatically contradictory to that parallel to imagine Silva also worked for or at least was allied/affiliated with Spectre?

Bond has a tendency to do whatever the **** he wants, but he's still an employee of MI6. He's not and has never been a complete loner.

Because what Silva offers Bond is the freedom he can't theoretically have with MI6. How does that work if he is beholden to others?

Also, you actually just made me realize something. How in the heck does that work? Blofeld seem to have one personal life mission and it involves torturing and killing James Bond. And there you have Silva offering Bond the same life he has. So even if he is just allied with SPECTRE, how does that work exactly?