James Bond: 007 - Spectre - Part 10

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Darth, you seem to be going on tangents and explaining things that have little to do with what we were talking about, as if I need you to explain to me the basic plot and role of characters within the film. Not sure how to respond at this point. You've ignored requests I made to clarify your earlier statements in favor of this new conversation.
 
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I think The Guard you need to watch the film again. Seems like in your posts, you're either assuming things or just don't remember how certain scenes played out.

Where have I assumed anything? I've said there are multiple possibilities, and that the film does not specifically mention any of them.

I have said I don't recall how one scene plays out.
 
Because what Silva offers Bond is the freedom he can't theoretically have with MI6. How does that work if he is beholden to others?

Again with this assumption that working for/with an organization makes you "beholden" to someone else...you can be beholden to something other than yourself AND yourself if your interests align.

Also, you actually just made me realize something. How in the heck does that work? Blofeld seem to have one personal life mission and it involves torturing and killing James Bond. And there you have Silva offering Bond the same life he has. So even if he is just allied with SPECTRE, how does that work exactly?

This assumes that Silva is actually asking Bond to join him. He seems to know Bond wouldn't go for it anyway.
 
Darth, you seem to be going on tangents and explaining things that have little to do with what we were talking about, as if I need you to explain to me the basic plot and role of characters within the film. Not sure how to respond at this point. You've ignored requests I made to clarify your earlier statements in favor of this new conversation.
No. You started the tangents. But lets make it very clear.

- The structure of SPECTRE is important to understanding what Silva's role could have possibly been with or in it. SPECTRE is very much a structured organization, who is picky about who they associate with. This is why they have their very own fixers, who they pick from their members, and why they should off the radar for so long.

- You keep on mentioning the small fish, without realize the film literally showed with 3 different characters who does the killing for SPECTRE.

- What Silva's character was in the arc of Skyfall is important to understanding why what happens in SPECTRE changes his character.

- Blofeld's relationship with Bond doesn't seem to imply he would just like someone random kill him, Silva included.

- You got hung up on Silva"working alone" not realizing what I meant by it. That Silva is his own man, not beholden to anyone. This is exactly what he offers Bond, which seems weird considering I doubt Blofeld would like that.

- Blofeld literally takes responsibility for what happened in the last 3 movies, including what happened to M. That changes what Silva represents.
 
Because what Silva offers Bond is the freedom he can't theoretically have with MI6. How does that work if he is beholden to others?

Also, you actually just made me realize something. How in the heck does that work? Blofeld seem to have one personal life mission and it involves torturing and killing James Bond. And there you have Silva offering Bond the same life he has. So even if he is just allied with SPECTRE, how does that work exactly?
Quoted because this is an important post on why people are annoyed about the retcon.
 
And let's not forget...just because Blofeld SAYS something to Bond, that doesn't necessarily make it true. Could all just be part of his attempts to psychologically torture Bond.

No offense, but that is total straw clutching. There's no reason to believe he was lying, and the movie makes no such implication that he might be.
 
Again with this assumption that working for/with an organization makes you "beholden" to someone else...you can be beholden to something other than yourself AND yourself if your interests align.
Yes, because SPECTRE would allow for someone to kill James Bond randomly. Did you not see how they were presented in the movie? Blofeld literally states he was waiting for Bond. So they just let Silva try to him, whether he works for them or with them? He knew that James was going to get through the Silva situation alright, how exactly?

And using your theory, then why go through the trouble of torturing Bond over the years?

This assumes that Silva is actually asking Bond to join him. He seems to know Bond wouldn't go for it anyway.
You are assuming the offer wasn't real, when there is zero evidence that is true. Why exactly would Silva try and make M look like a monster who sent Bond out to die (he looks at his records and how he wasn't pass fit), if he wasn't trying to convince Bond to join him?
 
Quoted because this is an important post on why people are annoyed about the retcon.
I literally put the blu ray on to make sure I remembered the scene correctly. It makes zero sense.

No offense, but that is total straw clutching. There's no reason to believe he was lying, and the movie makes no such implication that he might be.
And this is why I mention mental gymnastics. You literally have to interpret things in a different way then how they are presented.
 
No. You started the tangents. But lets make it very clear.

When? We were talking about whether or not Silva would work for/with an organization like SPECTRE, and you started going on about the meaning of a scene. A meaning I had previously shown no signs of not understanding.

- The structure of SPECTRE is important to understanding what Silva's role could have possibly been with or in it. SPECTRE is very much a structured organization, who is picky about who they associate with. This is why they have their very own fixers, who they pick from their members, and why they should off the radar for so long.

We're not shown all the details of the structure of SPECTRE. We're shown a single meeting of their power players.

Ok, so maybe Silva was a "fixer". What does that change about his involvement in the events of SKYFALL? Is he suddenly unable to decide whether he wants to be involved, what he wants to do, etc?

He says "Choose your own secret mission". He never says that he always comes up with all the ideas for the missions or that no one else but him will benefit from said missions. In fact, the nature of the missions he mentions would suggest otherwise.

- You keep on mentioning the small fish, without realize the film literally showed with 3 different characters who does the killing for SPECTRE.

What's your point? Are we to believe that these are the only types of people who do the killing for SPECTRE? Or who can? Or who have? And what does that have to do with Silva?

- What Silva's character was in the arc of Skyfall is important to understanding why what happens in SPECTRE changes his character.

I agree, but Silva is never shown to abhor working with others or with an organization in SKYFALL. In fact he has his own organization, where he works with others. He is shown to hate the government, and wants to choose his own missions and life. If he chose his own special mission in relation to SPECTRE, how does this change what we're shown about the character?

- Blofeld's relationship with Bond doesn't seem to imply he would just like someone random kill him, Silva included.

Again, what's your point here?

- You got hung up on Silva"working alone" not realizing what I meant by it. That Silva is his own man, not beholden to anyone. This is exactly what he offers Bond, which seems weird considering I doubt Blofeld would like that.

I guess I shouldn't take words at their meaning. My mistake.

In SKYFALL, Silva implies that he has more freedom now than he had at MI6. He doesn't actually ever say he is never beholden to anyone ever again. Not that he has to only be "beholden to someone" if he's doing what he wants to be doing anyway.

- Blofeld literally takes responsibility for what happened in the last 3 movies, including what happened to M. That changes what Silva represents.

That doesn't mean he was the only person responsible for it. Did the things Silva did in SKYFALL suddenly not happen now?
 
No offense, but that is total straw clutching. There's no reason to believe he was lying, and the movie makes no such implication that he might be.

I'm not saying that's the case. Just pointing out an interesting possibility.
 
As SPIDEY was saying, the reason why people have trouble with retcon in anything, is that it never matches up. Stuff that could be taken at face value, which the story of each individual film is built on, is suddenly not what it was.

The only time retcon has ever worked fully was Luke being Vader's son. Leia being Vader's daughter required more then a bit of "wink wink", because Vader never noticed and Luke clearly wanted him some of his "sister" for two movies, and then suddenly no. Even Han knew in RotJ. :funny:
 
Blofeld has more to do with his missions in life than just making James life a living hell.
"You interfered in my life, I interfered in yours." It's like Killian/Tony in IM3 all over again.
 
Yes, because SPECTRE would allow for someone to kill James Bond randomly. Did you not see how they were presented in the movie? Blofeld literally states he was waiting for Bond. So they just let Silva try to him, whether he works for them or with them? He knew that James was going to get through the Silva situation alright, how exactly?

Maybe he didn't.

In SPECTRE, Blofeld is waiting for Bond right then, at that point in time.

Who is to say that around the time of SKYFALL, SPECTRE and Blofeld would not have preferred to have Bond dead, or considered him expendable in pursuit of their ultimate target M?

And Silva is supposed to be a rebel, yes? Who is to say that he wouldn't also rebel against SPECTRE in some fashion?

Since we are never presented with any concrete specifics about exactly what Silva and Blofeld's interactions were, and what Blofeld's wishes for Bond were at the time of SKYFALL, seems kind of pointless to speculate on it and make assumptions about it.

And using your theory, then why go through the trouble of torturing Bond over the years?

What theory is that?

Side note: You're asking me why a borderline insane megalomaniac would go through the lengths of torturing someone through the years if they just wanted to kill them?

You are assuming the offer wasn't real, when there is zero evidence that is true.

I'm not assuming anything. I simply pointed out that you cannot, in fact, assume it was a legitimate offer. Does it strike you as reasonable for Silva to think a "Queen and Country" spy like Bond would just "turn"?

Why exactly would Silva try and make M look like a monster who sent Bond out to die (he looks at his records and how he wasn't pass fit), if he wasn't trying to convince Bond to join him?

Because Silva is explaining his point of view. He feels like M is a monster. M's "betrayal" of Bond parallels her betrayal of Silva, which is revealed later on.
 
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And this is why I mention mental gymnastics. You literally have to interpret things in a different way then how they are presented.

Except they aren't "presented". The only thing presented is that Silva was part of SPECTRE and Blofeld was involved in the events with M. You're making a lot of assumptions about what that entails based on what is actually presented, which allows for multiple possibilities.
 
As SPIDEY was saying, the reason why people have trouble with retcon in anything, is that it never matches up. Stuff that could be taken at face value, which the story of each individual film is built on, is suddenly not what it was.

The only time retcon has ever worked fully was Luke being Vader's son. Leia being Vader's daughter required more then a bit of "wink wink", because Vader never noticed and Luke clearly wanted him some of his "sister" for two movies, and then suddenly no. Even Han knew in RotJ. :funny:
See Star Wars was good and the retcons were actually good and interesting. Sandman killing Uncle Ben is stupid and leads to nothing interesting and making Silva Blow-Feld's ***** was bad because it doesn't make a lick of sense and hurts Silva as a character. I don't mind retcons but they have to be done for a damn good reason.
 
When? We were talking about whether or not Silva would work for/with an organization like SPECTRE, and you started going on about the meaning of a scene. A meaning I had previously shown no signs of not understanding.
Because whether Silva would work for/with an organization like SPECTRE is based around what kind of organization SPECTRE is. Are you being serious?

We're not shown all the details of the structure of SPECTRE. We're shown a single meeting of their power players.

Ok, so maybe Silva was a "fixer". What does that change about his involvement in the events of SKYFALL? Is he suddenly unable to decide whether he wants to be involved, what he wants to do, etc?
Silva's demenor, attitude and mental unhingedness would make him an odd choice for a group like SPECTRE. SPECTRE wouldn't hire "wild cards". Not ones who might kill Blofeld's own prey.

He says "Choose your own secret mission". He never says that he always comes up with all the ideas for the missions or that no one else but him will benefit from said missions. In fact, the nature of the missions he mentions would suggest otherwise.
Silva is a merc. That is how he is portrayed. That is why he says missions.

What's your point? Are we to believe that these are the only types of people who do the killing for SPECTRE? Or who can? Or who have? And what does that have to do with Silva?
Very simple. These are the ones who handle high value targets. Remember, they specifically need to pick someone else before they try and kill the Pale King again.

They don't just send random goons after such targets. At the beginning of the movie Sciarra is personally handling a bombing. In Casino Royale, Mr. White is personally handling the situation with LeChiffe and the terrorist.

Bond is the highest value target of them all. Why would Silva be allowed to kill him if he is working with or for SPECTRE?

I agree, but Silva is never shown to abhor working with others or with an organization in SKYFALL. In fact he has his own organization, where he works with others. He is shown to hate the government, and wants to choose his own missions and life. If he chose his own special mission in relation to SPECTRE, how does this change what we're shown about the character?
His entire conversation with Bond in Skyfall says he does.

By the way, choosing his own missions does not imply any restrictions, when SPECTRE shows there would clearly be some. This includes kill Bond, which he almost does a good 5 times in Skyfall.

Again, what's your point here?
If Silva is working with SPECTRE, why would he be allowed to Kill James? Blofeld said he was waiting for him. He clearly wanted to reveal his great torture plane to him. So Silva kills him randomly. How does Blofeld exactly do that now?

I guess I shouldn't take words at their meaning. My mistake.

In SKYFALL, Silva implies that he has more freedom now than he had at MI6. He doesn't actually ever say he is never beholden to anyone ever again. Not that he has to only be "beholden to someone" if he's doing what he wants to be doing anyway.
Four words.

James. Bond. Blofeld. Plan.

The internal logic of Skyfall and SPECTRE don't match up if Blofeld is so willing to let Silva kill Bond.

That doesn't mean he was the only person responsible for it. Did the things Silva did in SKYFALL suddenly not happen now?
The meaning of them certainly changes, which is what people are mentioning is a problem and you are ignoring. It also doesn't line up with the internal logic of Skyfall and SPECTRE.
 
Blofeld has more to do with his missions in life than just making James life a living hell.
"You interfered in my life, I interfered in yours." It's like Killian/Tony in IM3 all over again.
James is clearly his pet project. To the point, he literally gets his hands dirty to handle James.
 
See Star Wars was good and the retcons were actually good and interesting. Sandman killing Uncle Ben is stupid and leads to nothing interesting and making Silva Blow-Feld's ***** was bad because it doesn't make a lick of sense and hurts Silva as a character. I don't mind retcons but they have to be done for a damn good reason.
I love Star Wars, and I love Luke and Leia being siblings. But it also means that the strongest Force user in history couldn't sense his daughter was his daughter while he tortured her.
 
I love Star Wars, and I love Luke and Leia being siblings. But it also means that the strongest Force user in history couldn't sense his daughter was his daughter while he tortured her.
Hmm, that's true. lol

Clearly that was not something that was planned at all and it doesn't make sense. That part does hurt the Vader character as it makes him not as powerful or an idiot? Okay, not as powerful at that moment for no reason.
 
James is clearly his pet project. To the point, he literally gets his hands dirty to handle James.

Not really. it's not like SPECTRE exists purely to attack Bond and Blofeld is hell bent on ruining Bond's life because of his time spent with Hannes. Bond has been thwarting SPECTRE backed operations since Casino, although he's had no clue about it. I'm sure SPECTRE would have had many other operations on the go and Bond happened to cross paths with a small number of them over the last few films. Of course, when Bond ends up at the SPECTRE meeting face to face, Blofeld has to try to take him down. It's not like he's been out to get Bond all this time purely because he was a jealous teenager. Bond has been screwing with his evil plans, so it's payback time.
 
I just came back from the film and I got to say I wasn't too impressed. I actually think this is on par with QOS i didn't like it and i didn't hate it i thought it was average. Craig was excellent as Bond but I felt the rest of the cast was just there. I felt that the Waltz was a poorly written villain. His motif for hating bond was just ridiculous. I did like Bautista he was very menacing too bad he didn't have much to say. The action in this movie was also average the best scenes that stood out were the Rome Chase Scene, Intro in Mexico City, and the Train Fight Scene the other action scenes were just boring. I just wish I could have walked out liking this movie but I didn't. Overall I would give it a 6/10
So far I rank Craigs Bond Films in this order
Casino Royale
Skyfall
Quantum of Solace
Spectre
 
Because whether Silva would work for/with an organization like SPECTRE is based around what kind of organization SPECTRE is. Are you being serious?

We don't know much about what kind of organization SPECTRE is, or how they interacted with Silva. We know about one meeting, and what happened in one scenario.

Silva's demenor, attitude and mental unhingedness would make him an odd choice for a group like SPECTRE. SPECTRE wouldn't hire "wild cards". Not ones who might kill Blofeld's own prey.

What are you basing this on?

SPECTRE shows that in fact, SPECTRE did work with said "wild card".

Silva is a merc. That is how he is portrayed. That is why he says missions.

And...

Very simple. These are the ones who handle high value targets. Remember, they specifically need to pick someone else before they try and kill the Pale King again.

They don't just send random goons after such targets. At the beginning of the movie Sciarra is personally handling a bombing. In Casino Royale, Mr. White is personally handling the situation with LeChiffe and the terrorist.

Bond is the highest value target of them all. Why would Silva be allowed to kill him if he is working with or for SPECTRE?

Because as I pointed out, they may have wanted Bond dead or out of the way at the time.

His entire conversation with Bond in Skyfall says he does.

Nope. Nothing in Silva's conversation with Bond suggests that there are no restrictions. He says he chooses his own missions, and implies that it's easy to accomplish things.

By the way, choosing his own missions does not imply any restrictions, when SPECTRE shows there would clearly be some. This includes kill Bond, which he almost does a good 5 times in Skyfall.

And again, maybe SPECTRE wanted Bond dead at that point in time. Seeing as how the people with Vesper try to kill Bond, and the agents in QUANTUM try to kill Bond, that would seem to be the case. Maybe Blofeld came up with his fancy torture plan later on.

If Silva is working with SPECTRE, why would he be allowed to Kill James? Blofeld said he was waiting for him. He clearly wanted to reveal his great torture plane to him. So Silva kills him randomly. How does Blofeld exactly do that now?

He doesn't. If Silva wanted to kill Bond, do you think he'd let someone tell him not to?

James. Bond. Blofeld. Plan.

Blofeld never says that, over all that time, his goal was to keep James alive so he could torture him later. He says he is the author of all James' pain. He never says that's the only thing he does. When he HAS James, he tells James he wants to torture him and then kill him. That's after he has captured Bond.

The internal logic of Skyfall and SPECTRE don't match up if Blofeld is so willing to let Silva kill Bond.

Again, that assumes the standing order on Bond wasn't just "capture or kill". Or perhaps "capture, turn into an asset or kill".

The meaning of them certainly changes, which is what people are mentioning is a problem and you are ignoring. It also doesn't line up with the internal logic of Skyfall and SPECTRE.

If anything, the meaning of Silva's actions now has more layers to them.

The personal meanings of Silva's actions are not suddenly erased because causing Bond pain is also involved.

The only major thing that changes is that Silva will have been works with/for someone, which is one of the less important aspects of his character anyway, seeing as how it is given so little time. I believe there's a line or two of dialogue about it. Most of the Silva's character focus is on his disillusionment with MI6. That hasn't changed.
 
Not really. it's not like SPECTRE exists purely to attack Bond and Blofeld is hell bent on ruining Bond's life because of his time spent with Hannes. Bond has been thwarting SPECTRE backed operations since Casino, although he's had no clue about it. I'm sure SPECTRE would have had many other operations on the go and Bond happened to cross paths with a small number of them over the last few films. Of course, when Bond ends up at the SPECTRE meeting face to face, Blofeld has to try to take him down. It's not like he's been out to get Bond all this time purely because he was a jealous teenager. Bond has been screwing with his evil plans, so it's payback time.
I never said SPECTRE was built purely to attack Bond. But Blofeld says he has been torturing Bond on pupose, for years. He makes that perfectly clear.

Why are people ignoring what Blofeld actually says in the movie?

If Blofeld wasn't personally invested, why didn't he send other people to kill Bond at the end of the film? Why didn't he just kill him instead of torture him and be done with it? Why sent up the trap? Why retcon everything? Why does this movie even exist if Blofeld didn't want to punish James?
 
Watching Skyfall right now. Silva is a much better villain than Blofeld. Better writing and much better acting too.
 
I just realized something: if Blofeld already had Mr. White fatally poisoned, why does he need to send someone out to kill him?
 
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