Guardians of the Galaxy James gunn fired!!! - Part 1

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DarthSkywalker said:
No it means he was hired by Disney and likes money. If Disney offered me huge money tomorrow to work for them, you damn well I never say a thing again on the internet no matter what about anything, because I want that paper. :funny:

Also it is very different to talk about that in completely poor taste superhero list, and raping kids.
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That's possible, but that outcome is also just as likely as him actually realizing that he messed up. And we each have about as much evidence to our own opinions as the other does. Meaning we'll never know, because we don't have behind the scenes info.

I get both sides of this. I said this a while back on one of the older iterations of this thread, but I worked as an advocate for survivors of sexual assault and domestic abuse for a time. I completely understand those who want a zero tolerance policy when it comes to stuff like this. And I can see how that's not a bad thing.

But at the same time, I do think punishing people for offenses long in the past is a dangerous precedent to set, and one that could ultimately be counter productive. Granted, this depends on the severity of the past event obviously.

But before I was trained as an advocate, when I was a teenager/young college kid, did I make insensitive jokes? Jokes that were shocking just to be shocking? Yeah, I did. I made jokes like that because I'm a straight white dude who growing up, didn't look closely enough at humor like that, who didn't realize how much of our culture feeds a dynamic that creates sexual power imbalances at best, and allows sexual assault to go unchecked at worst. I didn't realize that because I didn't look closely enough, or think hard enough about how maybe not everyone got the same deck of life cards I did.

And then I got educated, and I was able to be a part of a program that helped people. And I got to hear first hand from survivors about how their lives had been marred by horrible acts, and I was able to point them to resources that would help them heal. And through that, I realized how much of an idiot I was. I learned and grew as a person.

Now, I understand that being a 18 to an early 20 something is a far cry from a 40 year old man. But my point is, if you punish me for a comment I make when I was younger and uniformed, and you never give me that chance to get educated, if you take away that job that let me help people because of stupid comments I had made years ago, I never would have learned. I never would have grown.

Maybe Gunn didn't really learn anything, maybe he still thinks the jokes he made almost a decade ago are funny. But maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's really trying to change. and in that case, I think it's a dangerous precedent to set to punish people for past sins.

I also think it's dangerous to reward alt-right trolls and let them know that this kind of smear campaign works. That I have an issue with even more than Gunn being fired. But still, I just think this is a complicated situation and I don't think it's a black and white issue.
 
Infinity9999x said:
True, this was for a different set of offensive material, written at about the same time. But he still apologized for it, and apologized for the humor he was using.

Now, if there are a lot of tweets after the time of this article that kept up the same kind of humor, that's a good thing to point to. Then it would show that he didn't seem to be honest about his apology, and didn't learn his lesson. And I haven't researched each tweet to see exactly when they came from, does anybody know if there are some post 2012?

If there's not though, I would say it's clear that after the time of the article, he started realizing that this kind of humor wasn't the best way to get attention, and obviously looked down upon with good reason. And if he stopped, it does seem he made efforts to change. Unless of course we find out that behind closed doors he kept these kinds of jokes up.

But if he didn't I would say that the 2012 apology is indicative of him apologizing for that kind of humor, as it's in the same vein. The superhero one even does have a pedophile joke in it.
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Is he changed? The same humour is in the Guardians movies, but sanitized for a PG-13 audience to make money. The Guardians movies are filled with casual misogyny as humour. And it's not like the films really examine these sentiments, he still seems to think just doing misogynistic things is funny. While he's not making jokes about raping children or raping women straight, how much of that is change, and how much of that is Disney now cuts him a big check and he can't get away with it at the moment?
 
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Snow Queen said:
Is he changed? The same humour in the Guardians movies, but sanitized for a PG-13 audience to make money. The Guardians movies are filled with casual misogyny as humour. And it's not like the films really examine these sentiments, he still seems to think just doing misogynistic things is funny. While he's not making jokes about raping children or raping women straight, how much of that is change, and how much of that is Disney now cuts him a big check and he can't get away with it at the moment?
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This is a very good point.
 
Snow Queen said:
Is he changed? The same humour is in the Guardians movies, but sanitized for a PG-13 audience to make money. The Guardians movies are filled with casual misogyny as humour. And it's not like the films really examine these sentiments, he still seems to think just doing misogynistic things is funny. While he's not making jokes about raping children or raping women straight, how much of that is change, and how much of that is Disney now cuts him a big check and he can't get away with it at the moment?
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What misogyny?
 
Infinity9999x said:
That's possible, but that outcome is also just as likely as him actually realizing that he messed up. And we each have about as much evidence to our own opinions as the other does. Meaning we'll never know, because we don't have behind the scenes info.

I get both sides of this. I said this a while back on one of the older iterations of this thread, but I worked as an advocate for survivors of sexual assault and domestic abuse for a time. I completely understand those who want a zero tolerance policy when it comes to stuff like this. And I can see how that's not a bad thing.

But at the same time, I do think punishing people for offenses long in the past is a dangerous precedent to set, and one that could ultimately be counter productive. Granted, this depends on the severity of the past event obviously.

But before I was trained as an advocate, when I was a teenager/young college kid, did I make insensitive jokes? Jokes that were shocking just to be shocking? Yeah, I did. I made jokes like that because I'm a straight white dude who growing up, didn't look closely enough at humor like that, who didn't realize how much of our culture feeds a dynamic that creates sexual power imbalances at best, and allows sexual assault to go unchecked at worst. I didn't realize that because I didn't look closely enough, or think hard enough about how maybe not everyone got the same deck of life cards I did.

And then I got educated, and I was able to be a part of a program that helped people. And I got to hear first hand from survivors about how their lives had been marred by horrible acts, and I was able to point them to resources that would help them heal. And through that, I realized how much of an idiot I was. I learned and grew as a person.

Now, I understand that being a 18 to an early 20 something is a far cry from a 40 year old man. But my point is, if you punish me for a comment I make when I was younger and uniformed, and you never give me that chance to get educated, if you take away that job that let me help people because of stupid comments I had made years ago, I never would have learned. I never would have grown.

Maybe Gunn didn't really learn anything, maybe he still thinks the jokes he made almost a decade ago are funny. But maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's really trying to change. and in that case, I think it's a dangerous precedent to set to punish people for past sins.

I also think it's dangerous to reward alt-right trolls and let them know that this kind of smear campaign works. That I have an issue with even more than Gunn being fired. But still, I just think this is a complicated situation and I don't think it's a black and white issue.
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Let's say he changed. I don't think its necessarily true, but say he has. I think the idea is what he said was the kind of stuff that is so bad, that if they were asked to hire him fresh off that in 2018, they wouldn't. And the aren't going to pay him more millions in that situation now.

I don't think learning and growing is on outside forces. You learn, you grow, but that isn't on others to do that for you. If this is a bump on his learning process, okay. But learning doesn't mean you are reward. Even if he isn't what he was, does that mean he is rewarded for it?
 
https://***********/MCU_Tweets/status/1024774930284662790?s=09

That earlier report was false
 
JannTosh said:
What misogyny?
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Drax and the general treatment of Gamora feels like a very obvious place to start. Remember Drax is literal, and he is literally going around calling her a ****e in a literal sense.
 
Infinity9999x said:
That's possible, but that outcome is also just as likely as him actually realizing that he messed up. And we each have about as much evidence to our own opinions as the other does. Meaning we'll never know, because we don't have behind the scenes info.

I get both sides of this. I said this a while back on one of the older iterations of this thread, but I worked as an advocate for survivors of sexual assault and domestic abuse for a time. I completely understand those who want a zero tolerance policy when it comes to stuff like this. And I can see how that's not a bad thing.

But at the same time, I do think punishing people for offenses long in the past is a dangerous precedent to set, and one that could ultimately be counter productive. Granted, this depends on the severity of the past event obviously.

But before I was trained as an advocate, when I was a teenager/young college kid, did I make insensitive jokes? Jokes that were shocking just to be shocking? Yeah, I did. I made jokes like that because I'm a straight white dude who growing up, didn't look closely enough at humor like that, who didn't realize how much of our culture feeds a dynamic that creates sexual power imbalances at best, and allows sexual assault to go unchecked at worst. I didn't realize that because I didn't look closely enough, or think hard enough about how maybe not everyone got the same deck of life cards I did.

And then I got educated, and I was able to be a part of a program that helped people. And I got to hear first hand from survivors about how their lives had been marred by horrible acts, and I was able to point them to resources that would help them heal. And through that, I realized how much of an idiot I was. I learned and grew as a person.

Now, I understand that being a 18 to an early 20 something is a far cry from a 40 year old man. But my point is, if you punish me for a comment I make when I was younger and uniformed, and you never give me that chance to get educated, if you take away that job that let me help people because of stupid comments I had made years ago, I never would have learned. I never would have grown.

Maybe Gunn didn't really learn anything, maybe he still thinks the jokes he made almost a decade ago are funny. But maybe he doesn't. Maybe he's really trying to change. and in that case, I think it's a dangerous precedent to set to punish people for past sins.

I also think it's dangerous to reward alt-right trolls and let them know that this kind of smear campaign works. That I have an issue with even more than Gunn being fired. But still, I just think this is a complicated situation and I don't think it's a black and white issue.
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That's it though it's not about punishing gunn. It is the fact that disney as a company can't be associated with comments like those and he can't do his job of promoting films with this hanging over him. I'm sure gunn got a nice severance package.

Soccer managers get sacked all the time but we don't see the internet aflame of how it was unfair and they shouldn't be punished for mistakes blah blah. They just get their cheaque and look to the next job. Which gunn will do too. Go and watch his next movie if you think it's unfair. I probably will because he is a decent director. I just think he was a bit of an idiot and it has come back to haunt him costing the big job. Doesn't mean he can't work any more.
 
DarthSkywalker said:
Let's say he changed. I don't think its necessarily true, but say he has. I think the idea is what he said was the kind of stuff that is so bad, that if they were asked to hire him fresh off that in 2018, they wouldn't. And the aren't going to pay him more millions in that situation now.

I don't think learning and growing is on outside forces. You learn, you grow, but that isn't on others to do that for you. If this is a bump on his learning process, okay. But learning doesn't mean you are reward. Even if he isn't what he was, does that mean he is rewarded for it?
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This is true, I don't think it's on others to be the onus for one's personal growth. But conversely, is it on us to punish people for something they may have already grown past?

I also think you have to make a distinction between reward and not punishing. I don't view it as a reward that he keeps his job he was hired for years ago and had already done a lot of work on. There's no reward in that, he's not being given free money because he said bad things. He's just not being fired for a mistake he made almost ten years ago. Because, in the hypothetical situation where he wasn't fired, his employer would be recognizing he changed.

Now, maybe he hasn't change. And if he hasn't, then yeah, I think it's appropriate they let him go. The cast letter does seem to counter this argument, but we honestly will never know if he has tried to better himself unless we somehow became a part of his life.

Still, I think my initial point stands. Punishing those for offenses long past, especially if they person in question has been shown to make marked efforts to change, will ultimately result in a situation where we aren't going to allow people to grow. It could easily have the opposite effect.
 
DACrowe said:
In slightly related news, the idea of the MCU cast showing more support for Gunn evaporated. I saw a report that said Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, and Robert Downey Jr. quietly unfollowed James Gunn on Twitter apparently in the last week.

Maybe they are truly disgusted by what Gunn tweeted. My guess though is they're falling in line behind their company, the same way so many big screen heroes in the mid 20th century looked the other way when colleagues were blacklisted.
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They won't have a close working relationship with James Gunn like the Guardians do though.
 
Lilbaz said:
That's it though it's not about punishing gunn. It is the fact that disney as a company can't be associated with comments like those and he can't do his job of promoting films with this hanging over him. I'm sure gunn got a nice severance package.

Soccer managers get sacked all the time but we don't see the internet aflame of how it was unfair and they shouldn't be punished for mistakes blah blah. They just get their cheaque and look to the next job. Which gunn will do too. Go and watch his next movie if you think it's unfair. I probably will because he is a decent director. I just think he was a bit of an idiot and it has come back to haunt him costing the big job. Doesn't mean he can't work any more.
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Disney as a company is associated with products they've put out that contain racism and sexism. And they regularly employ a major movie star who has been involved in domestic abuse. Given that, and the fact that Gunn had been called out publicly for his questionable humor in 2012, I don't really think the main reason they let him go is because they can't be associated with 8-9 year old jokes that were of horrible taste.

I do agree though, Gunn is going to be fine. He'll lay low for a bit and then someone will hire him, or he'll start working on some personal indie projects. But I do think this sets a bad precedent in how we go about punishing others. I also think rewarding someone like Cernovich also sets a very dangerous precedent, and we'll likely see the effects of that going forward.
 
JannTosh said:
What misogyny?
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Punchlines to jokes just being Drax randomly calling Gamora a ****e, Mantis being turned into the submissive Asian woman stereotype is something I saw brought up often by Asian women, Gamora's lip service of the most dangerous woman in the galaxy constantly being beaten and being in need of saving during the first film, Drax's entire treatment of Mantis boils down to "it's funny because he called her ugly" and none of the characters could care less, Star Lord...just Star Lord, and no doubt other examples I'm forgetting. It's not a matter of jokes can't be made about characters because they're women (and I say about, because the movies alter the female characters into more serious these characters, opposed to the men who make jokes and treat people horribly but it's okay because they're lovable losers), but given Gunn's history, it puts a lot of his decisions under a different light, at least to me. It creates a rather unpleasant atmosphere in the films, especially given his films never address any of it and as such, appear oblivious at best.
 
Snow Queen said:
Punchlines to jokes just being Drax randomly calling Gamora a ****e, Mantis being turned into the submissive Asian woman stereotype is something I saw brought up often by Asian women, Gamora's lip service of the most dangerous woman in the galaxy constantly being beaten and being in need of saving during the first film, Drax's entire treatment of Mantis boils down to "it's funny because he called her ugly" and none of the characters could care less, Star Lord...just Star Lord, and no doubt other examples I'm forgetting. It's not a matter of jokes can't be made about characters because they're women (and I say about, because the movies alter the female characters into more serious these characters, opposed to the men who make jokes and treat people horribly but it's okay because they're lovable losers), but given Gunn's history, it puts a lot of his decisions under a different light, at least to me. It creates a rather unpleasant atmosphere in the films, especially given his films never address any of it and as such, appear oblivious.
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Not even the biggest Gun fan and this seems to be really reaching and creating a fuss over nothing by
 
Infinity9999x said:
This is true, I don't think it's on others to be the onus for one's personal growth. But conversely, is it on us to punish people for something they may have already grown past?

I also think you have to make a distinction between reward and not punishing. I don't view it as a reward that he keeps his job he was hired for years ago and had already done a lot of work on. There's no reward in that, he's not being given free money because he said bad things. He's just not being fired for a mistake he made almost ten years ago. Because, in the hypothetical situation where he wasn't fired, his employer would be recognizing he changed.

Now, maybe he hasn't change. And if he hasn't, then yeah, I think it's appropriate they let him go. The cast letter does seem to counter this argument, but we honestly will never know if he has tried to better himself unless we somehow became a part of his life.

Still, I think my initial point stands. Punishing those for offenses long past, especially if they person in question has been shown to make marked efforts to change, will ultimately result in a situation where we aren't going to allow people to grow. It could easily have the opposite effect.
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I do find paying him millions of dollars a reward, anyway you slice it, especially as those in charge of paying him that money are not happy about this. And it was not almost 10 years ago. It started on Twitter 10 years ago, and apparently there is material up and through 2011/2012.

When it comes to the cast feelings, I believe in the idea in that it isn't how you treat your friends, its how you treat other people. What you put out in the world. That is what bothers me about Blair's and Batista's stance. It is exactly what people put out to defend people against accusations from others and it makes me feel icky.
 
DalekbusterFitz said:
I refuse to believe this. It reads too negative, and Disney know both filmgoers and the franchise's cast want James Gunn reinstated.
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So Variety made it up? A trade? The ones who said it was a possibility the other day? An exclusive to Variety actually makes it sound like it came from a legit source, in a very well overt way. Like someone higher up told someone to go talk to them and tell them the studio's stance.
 
DalekbusterFitz said:
I refuse to believe this. It reads too negative, and Disney know both filmgoers and the franchise's cast want James Gunn reinstated.
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The problem is reinstating him would create another backlash from the people that want him fired (and it’s not just right wingers, plenty of left leaning people with the zero tolerance mindset want him gone as well) and it will force Disney to admit they made a mistake in front of everyone. It’s peobably best to let bygones be bygones and move on
 
DarthSkywalker said:
So Variety made it up? A trade? The ones who said it was a possibility the other day? An exclusive to Variety actually makes it sound like it came from a legit source, in a very well overt way. Like someone higher up told someone to go talk to them and tell them the studio's stance.
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Well they retracted it and are now saying he isn't coming back
https://t.co/yuUa3ChR1u?amp=1
 
DarthSkywalker said:
So uh, this heavily implies Feige fired him:

Gunn’s firing was approved by Disney Studios chief Alan Horn, with his boss, company CEO Bob Iger weighing in on the final decision.
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So the reason Feige might be silent isn't because of support, but because he did it. Because Horn Is Feige's boss, Iger is Horn's boss. There is no one between Horn and Feige.
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It did seem that Feige was the one who fired Gunn, and the final decision was approved by Horn and Iger, before being announced to press (if Horn and Iger just approved the decision and not actually made the decision, I can’t imagine anyone other than Feige proposing to fire him).

Maybe they want to protect Feige’s fan favorite image and let Horn, i.e. the evil corporate suit, announce the firing. At least this way Feige doesn’t loose love and support from any MCU fans. And, I don’t know, Feige DOES seem to be the type who might not ask his (Marvel studio’s) media team to look into the Tweeter feed from 10 years ago of the directors he hires, but if the situation calls for he can make quick decision and refuse to take any risk.

Anyway I just want the director to be announced so we can all get over this.
 
DarthSkywalker said:
I do find paying him millions of dollars a reward, anyway you slice it, especially as those in charge of paying him that money are not happy about this. And it was not almost 10 years ago. It started on Twitter 10 years ago, and apparently there is material up and through 2011/2012.

When it comes to the cast feelings, I believe in the idea in that it isn't how you treat your friends, its how you treat other people. What you put out in the world. That is what bothers me about Blair's and Batista's stance. It is exactly what people put out to defend people against accusations from others and it makes me feel icky.
Click to expand...

As an actor in NYC, and someone who works in the entertainment industry, directors get paid in accordance with how much money they bring in. That's just basic principles of a job. They do a lot of work, and they get paid for it. No reward in that, you're doing your job and you get paid.

We can argue the principles of how much entertainment personnel get paid, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with someone who thinks people of other professions should get paid more. I have two parents who are teachers. But at the end of the day, if you help create a product that makes billions of dollars, you deserve to get paid millions. The same way a real estate broker who sells a piece of land that's worth millions would get hundreds of thousands in commission.

And 2011 is 7 years ago, it's closer to a decade than not. But if you would prefer, I have no problem saying more than a half decade ago.

I can see how the responses of Bautista and others could bother you though. I have seen many same responses in support of people who have done far worse than make jokes. But I think we need to remember that, as of now, that is all he's accused of doing, and I do think that's a very different standard than those who come out in support of those who have assaulted others.

All that aside, I don't think any of it changes my initial point. I believe this is a dangerous standard to set unless we find out his behavior behind the scenes was continuing to show a problematic attitude.
 
Is nobody seeing the positive aspects of Gunn getting fired? If he is fired, GOTG may be delayed to 2021 and this allows them to incorporate the Fox characters
 
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