Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[phoenixstorm]

That's everything I have to say in a nutshell

Bravo!

The writers have screwed Jean over. It's really sad. Who cares who can kill who? Its pointless because someone more powerful will always come along.

No one cares if Sherlock Holmes can or can't destroy the multiverse. Its his character that people love. It's his character that makes him memorable. The rest is just a crutch.

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

That's everything I have to say in a nutshell. I really don't think a lot of you guys see the harm this has done Jean in the long run. It's going to be really hard to write her into the X-Men for a long period of time with the Pheonix Force

For someone with a limited imagination perhaps, and I don't mean you personally HandOfFate(VERY cool name BTW). I can think of many ways to take Jean's character creatively after the events of Endsong. Actually, I feel the possibilities are limitless, and note I said Jean's character. 'Cause IMO, without Jean Grey, Phoenix IS just a concept... not a character per se, in and of itself.

 

[phoenixstorm]

For someone with a limited imagination perhaps, and I don't mean you personally HandOfFate(VERY cool name BTW). I can think of many ways to take Jean's character creatively after the events of Endsong. Actually, I feel the possibilities are limitless, and note I said Jean's character. 'Cause IMO, without Jean Grey, Phoenix IS just a concept... not a character per se, in and of itself.

Not unless they go back and retcon everything again. Basically they made Jean into god. Can you please explain how having god on the team is going to make the book better?

Where is the suspense? Where is the tension? How can you fail when God is sitting next to you ready to fly into action?

 

[roach]

well when was the last time the X-men were relevant?????
There are 'too many cooks' writing X-men and they are screwing up. Jean will forever be stuck in the death/rebirth cycle.

 

[phoenixstorm]

well when was the last time the X-men were relevant?????
There are 'too many cooks' writing X-men and they are screwing up. Jean will forever be stuck in the death/rebirth cycle.

Exactly.

Too many x books.

There was a time when Xmen was a great comic. Now, not so much.

Those were great days for the xmen.

 

[roach]

The Jean and Storm fans are fighting over the crumbs of a once great franchise. I havent picked up an X-book in some months and probably wont pick up Bru's run. He didnt impress me on Deadly Genesis(Scott kicking Xavier out of his own house???????).

 

[phoenixstorm]

The Jean and Storm fans are fighting over the crumbs of a once great franchise. I havent picked up an X-book in some months and probably wont pick up Bru's run. He didnt impress me on Deadly Genesis(Scott kicking Xavier out of his own house???????).

Its really turned into a circus. Its sad, really.

Emma is somehow in charge of the institute and she's basically not the tough as nails cool as a cucumber Emma we know and love to hate, but a **** sexing up Scott and Wolervine by, get this, dressing up as jean grey.

What woman would do that except a spineless self esteem deprived prostitute?
Yuck.

Meanwhile Xavier is somehow not in control of his own house and team he built. What? Huh? Its his freaking house.

Im glad Storm left for the BP comic. She at least will escape that crapfest in Xmen.

 

[D-scythe]

Not unless they go back and retcon everything again. Basically they made Jean into god. Can you please explain how having god on the team is going to make the book better?

Where is the suspense? Where is the tension? How can you fail when God is sitting next to you ready to fly into action?

For what it's worth, Superman, J'onn, Flash and Wonder Woman can basically be considered gods. Doesn't seem to be hurting the JLA, or stop them from losing their powers temporarily at one time or another though. And human heroes/villains still seem to be able to hold their own, more or less.

 

[Intheknow101]

For what it's worth, Superman, J'onn, Flash and Wonder Woman can basically be considered gods. Doesn't seem to be hurting the JLA, or stop them from losing their powers temporarily at one time or another though. And human heroes/villains still seem to be able to hold their own, more or less.

Exactly. Good point D-Scythe. And let's not forget the Sentry. And if the Storm fans are constantly touting how Storm is more powerful than everyone else on the team, shouldn't she be "too powerful" and too much of a goddess to be on the team. Oh wait, these ridiculous rules only apply if it's Jean and not Storm.
Jean took on the Phoenix codename since 1994. Started showing signs as far back as 354. No where did she make the team redudant or over powered any one.

Further, she's no undefeatable like some of you claim. She still can make mistakes and be surprised. That's the charm of a HUMAN with godlike powers. Humans aren't perfect. And as far as power levels go she can reingage the psionic circuit breakers to Green Phoenix/New X-Men levels. No one is saying she should come back on a team as White Phoenix.

And don't let your own limited story ideas, limit the character. There are tons of story possibilities. Her reactions alone to all the changes that have taken can place can be an arc in and of itself. And then where she goes on from there...does she go take revenge on the Shiar for killing her parents and family? Does she form her rival school? Does she lead her own team? Does she join Astonishing since that will create tons of drama? Does she side with Xavier or Cyclops? How does she feel about all Xavier has done, including the knowledge that he "loved her"? Will she join the Avengers? Hook up with Captain America? etc etc. Tons of possibilities.

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

Not unless they go back and retcon everything again. Basically they made Jean into god. Can you please explain how having god on the team is going to make the book better?

Where is the suspense? Where is the tension? How can you fail when God is sitting next to you ready to fly into action?

You do realize Phoenixstorm, that the orignal Phoenix sagas, both regular and dark, were retconned in '86 when Jean was brought back for X-Factor? In the Claremont stories, Jean and Phoenix were always intended to be one in the same. The powers that be at the time, would only agree to resurrect Jean if the writers could find some way to absolve her character of the atrocities committed by Phoenix. Talk about playing it safe! Ta-da, we then have the Phoenix "force", now an "entity" able to act independently of Jean. So in a sense, one could argue that Morrison, Endsong et all brought Jean's character full circle. It's quite poetic actually, returning to Jean what is rightfully hers and finally allowing her to reclaim her true destiny... her birthright! In a sense, Endsong and all that, is really just a retcon of the original retcon, restoring things to the way they were originally... MEANT TO BE!

Jean is hardly omnipotent, dare I say, even as White Phoenix. As you said, there's always someone stronger and more powerful. Not to mention, her power levels have always fluctuated and spiked, never remaining consistant as Jean Grey or Phoenix. She has weaknesses also, as a psi, Jean's vulnerable to sonic attacks and I would assume, magical ones. Anyway, personally, I believe Jean's biggest weakness has always been... HERSELF!

As far as teams go, we need not look any further than the Justice League, the Avengers, or the Defenders. With each of those examples, god-like beings rub elbows with "mere mortals" all the time, and both parties have been equally effective on the battlefield at one time or another. The Avengers have had Thor, the Defenders the Silver Surfer, and the League has Superman AND Wonder Woman. Yet, the likes of Batman or Hawkeye have been the last man standing on more than one occasion... especially Bats(...he's so clever)!

Lastly, whose to say Jean even has to be on a team. She could return and just make guest appearances in various titles for a while before deciding to join one. Better yet, Marvel could get their collective heads out of Joey Q.'s ass and finally give Phoenix her much deserved and highly coveted solo book. It doesn't even have to be an ongoing, it could be a 12 issue limited run, just to test the waters, sort of speak. Trust me, the "Jean Grey IS Phoenix" era has only just begun, so ya better get used to it! Seriously people, deal with it, just... DEAL WITH IT!!!

 

[Abaddon]

What I don't understand is why they considered exorcizing Phoenix if it and Jean were one in the same. Or is that all just part of Jean's powers taking on an identity of their own?

 

[Intheknow101]

What I don't understand is why they considered exorcizing Phoenix if it and Jean were one in the same. Or is that all just part of Jean's powers taking on an identity of their own?

They didn't want to excorcize anything, they wanted to shatter and destroy. But fragments of Jean have often incomplete parts of her personality and memories.

 

[Abaddon]

Are we both talking about the original resolution to the Phoenix Saga?

 

[Intheknow101]

I was talking about Endsong.
But do you mean when they were going to lobotomize Jean, and in effect depower her? And in X-Men 150, Magneto was to come to her and offer to restore her power.

 

[Abaddon]

You mean when they were going to lobotomize Jean, and in effect depower her? And in X-Men 150, Magneto was to come to her and offer to restore her power.

No,I mean the outline they had for the Shi'ar to invent some machine that would exorcise the Phoenix. The editors decided it was a bad idea since Jean was responsible for the the deaths of thousands(or millions) and should be held accountable,so they instead decided she should kill herself.

 

[Intheknow101]

No,I mean the outline they had for the Shi'ar to invent some machine that would exorcise the Phoenix. The editors decided it was a bad idea since Jean was responsible for the the deaths of thousands(or millions) and should be held accountable,so they instead decided she should kill herself.

I know the page you refer to. It was a machine designed to lobotomize, not excorcize.

 

[Abaddon]

I know the page you refer to. It was a machine designed to lobotomize, not excorcize.

Ok,this is the first I'm hearing of that.

I guess it makes more sense.

 

[HandOfFate]

For what it's worth, Superman, J'onn, Flash and Wonder Woman can basically be considered gods. Doesn't seem to be hurting the JLA, or stop them from losing their powers temporarily at one time or another though. And human heroes/villains still seem to be able to hold their own, more or less.

Uh...none of the memebers of the JLA can hold a universe in their hands.

Exactly. Good point D-Scythe. And let's not forget the Sentry. And if the Storm fans are constantly touting how Storm is more powerful than everyone else on the team, shouldn't she be "too powerful" and too much of a goddess to be on the team. Oh wait, these ridiculous rules only apply if it's Jean and not Storm.

Geez...I would hate for Storm and you to meet in a dark alley.

And don't let your own limited story ideas, limit the character. There are tons of story possibilities. Her reactions alone to all the changes that have taken can place can be an arc in and of itself. And then where she goes on from there...does she go take revenge on the Shiar for killing her parents and family? Does she form her rival school? Does she lead her own team? Does she join Astonishing since that will create tons of drama? Does she side with Xavier or Cyclops? How does she feel about all Xavier has done, including the knowledge that he "loved her"? Will she join the Avengers? Hook up with Captain America? etc etc. Tons of possibilities.

Interesting possibility but all of them are pointless when you consider that she can easily go back in time and change them. Unlike Thor, she a true cosmic god working on a human level. WHAT THE POINT!?!

She is on the same route of Pre-Crisis Superman.

 

[phoenixstorm]

For what it's worth, Superman, J'onn, Flash and Wonder Woman can basically be considered gods. Doesn't seem to be hurting the JLA, or stop them from losing their powers temporarily at one time or another though. And human heroes/villains still seem to be able to hold their own, more or less.

I disagree. This is why I can't stand DC except for a few characters. Superman is exactly that, Superman. I avoid it.


Let me just add this quickly: I refuse to accept that whole endsong fiasco. Sorry, but I don't buy into the green white phoenix mess. I can't believe that some fans actually like that? Truly? Sigh.

Thats all I have to say on that. Jean is doesn't need the mess they made of the phoenix storyline.

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

What I don't understand is why they considered exorcizing Phoenix if it and Jean were one in the same. Or is that all just part of Jean's powers taking on an identity of their own?

Jean as Phoenix in the original Claremont stories wasn't even supposed to die. Then EIC Jim Shooter demanded her character's death, because he didn't want a hero running around 616 who "accidently" destroyed an entire civiliztion. Millions of innocent lives were lost when the sun Phoenix was "feeding" on went supernova. Whether the resulting genocide was intentional or not remains unclear. I like to believe it's the latter, and Jean was acting on impulse. A NEED if you will, to fulfill Phoenix's ravenous and compulsive hunger for energy, and new sensations. Either way you look at it, it's a dicey sitch and one that demands to be explored. They decided to bring Jean back due to popular demand and reuniting the original five for X-Factor. BUT, sans Phoenix, 'cause in '86 they still weren't ready to deal with the devastation she wrought. So the infamous decision was made to make Jean Grey and Phoenix two seperate beings. Jean was left at the bottom of the bay to heal, while Phoenix impersonated her and eventually "lost control", to put it lightly.

As far as Jean's powers taking on a life of their own, this is a very likely scenario IMO. I like to believe Jean gave "birth" to the Phoenix as a result of the Annie Richardson incident, back when she was a child. A defense mechanism of sorts, the ultimate power manifestation is created by her subconscious and triggered when Jean is scared or threatened. It is able to leave and return to her, it's "mother", sort of like a witch's familiar. Other powerful psis have executed similar feats, subconsciously again mind you. Think Professor Xavier's Onslaught persona or Franklin Richards' Heroes Reborn universe. These "creations", like Phoenix, were sustained and maintained by the individual who spawned them. In most cases unbeknownst, at least on most levels, to the originators of these enigmatic occurrences. It's complicated I know, but altogether fascinating nonetheless. None of this is canon mind you, just some of my personal theories. Which are flexible BTW, so anyone interested can feel free to embelish them.

I was kinda confused by your first sentence, not quite sure what exactly you were asking. I took a shot anyway... hope it helps!

 

[phoenixstorm]

You do realize Phoenixstorm, that the orignal Phoenix sagas, both regular and dark, were retconned in '86 when Jean was brought back for X-Factor? In the Claremont stories, Jean and Phoenix were always intended to be one in the same. The powers that be at the time, would only agree to resurrect Jean if the writers could find some way to absolve her character of the atrocities committed by Phoenix. Talk about playing it safe! Ta-da, we then have the Phoenix "force", now an "entity" able to act independently of Jean. So in a sense, one could argue that Morrison, Endsong et all brought Jean's character full circle. It's quite poetic actually, returning to Jean what is rightfully hers and finally allowing her to reclaim her true destiny... her birthright! In a sense, Endsong and all that, is really just a retcon of the original retcon, restoring things to the way they were originally... MEANT TO BE!

Jean is hardly omnipotent, dare I say, even as White Phoenix. As you said, there's always someone stronger and more powerful. Not to mention, her power levels have always fluctuated and spiked, never remaining consistant as Jean Grey or Phoenix. She has weaknesses also, as a psi, Jean's vulnerable to sonic attacks and I would assume, magical ones. Anyway, personally, I believe Jean's biggest weakness has always been... HERSELF!

As far as teams go, we need not look any further than the Justice League, the Avengers, or the Defenders. With each of those examples, god-like beings rub elbows with "mere mortals" all the time, and both parties have been equally effective on the battlefield at one time or another. The Avengers have had Thor, the Defenders the Silver Surfer, and the League has Superman AND Wonder Woman. Yet, the likes of Batman or Hawkeye have been the last man standing on more than one occasion... especially Bats(...he's so clever)!

Lastly, whose to say Jean even has to be on a team. She could return and just make guest appearances in various titles for a while before deciding to join one. Better yet, Marvel could get their collective heads out of Joey Q.'s ass and finally give Phoenix her much deserved and highly coveted solo book. It doesn't even have to be an ongoing, it could be a 12 issue limited run, just to test the waters, sort of speak. Trust me, the "Jean Grey IS Phoenix" era has only just begun, so ya better get used to it! Seriously people, deal with it, just... DEAL WITH IT!!!

No. Its tragic really, but its good that I don't have to deal with it because I can keep my money in my pocket.

It's all too arbitrary for me. I don't have the patience anymore for deaths and resurrections and deaths and resurrections. The original story was great. When they brought Jean back in fantastic four it was a sad, sad day for comics. It was the beginning of the Soap Opera mentality.

I'm tired of characters dying just to come back. Didn't they recently have a joke in the comic that they die and always come back? Yeah. Tired. Of. It.

Really I don't care who is more powerful phoenix or storm, xavier or magneto, because its meaningless. They writers and marvel have made it meaningless. Jean kills Storm. so what because storm will be back. Storm kills Jean. So what because Jean will be back. Its pointless. How many times is magneto going to go evil and try to exterminate human kind? I bet thats coming back soon.

I loved the New Universe. That was great. I was sad when it went away. DP7. PsiForce. Oh well.

And when you say phoenix isn't ominpotent you're kidding right? She eats suns and destroys galaxies.

I think a jean limited series would work. I don't think she can carry her own comic because they would have done it by now. Her character just isn't strong enough to support her own comic.

Its really sad that there aren't more female centered comics out there.

 

[HandOfFate]

For someone with a limited imagination perhaps, and I don't mean you personally HandOfFate(VERY cool name BTW). I can think of many ways to take Jean's character creatively after the events of Endsong. Actually, I feel the possibilities are limitless, and note I said Jean's character. 'Cause IMO, without Jean Grey, Phoenix IS just a concept... not a character per se, in and of itself.

I’m sure you can think of tons of stories for Jean with the full power of the Phoenix Force….but would the story be interesting to the average reader of comics. Think about it, most readers of comic book consider all powerful characters boring. That the reason why the Silver Surfer can’t hold onto a book for more the 12 issue now. Nobody cares for the plight of an all powerful god.

IMHO, the only way Jean could work is if they brought her down to Rachel’s power levels in Excalibur, (which might piss a small minority of fans off). Within this power range Jean is still powerful but she now has limits which would make her relatable to readers.

All powerful is not a good thing.

Also thanks for the Name thing.

well when was the last time the X-men were relevant?????

There are 'too many cooks' writing X-men and they are screwing up. Jean will forever be stuck in the death/rebirth cycle.

That's really sad. Why should fans care about her then? The possibility of death plays a major rule in the lives of comic book characters (Even if some can’t get it right the first time) and their readers.

 

[Abaddon]

Jean as Phoenix in the original Claremont stories wasn't even supposed to die. Then EIC Jim Shooter demanded her character's death, because he didn't want a hero running around 616 who "accidently" destroyed an entire civiliztion. Millions of innocent lives were lost when the sun Phoenix was "feeding" on went supernova. Whether the resulting genocide was intentional or not remains unclear. I like to believe it's the latter, and Jean was acting on impulse. A NEED if you will, to fulfill Phoenix's ravenous and compulsive hunger for energy, and new sensations. Either way you look at it, it's a dicey sitch and one that demands to be explored. They decided to bring Jean back due to popular demand and reuniting the original five for X-Factor. BUT, sans Phoenix, 'cause in '86 they still weren't ready to deal with the devastation she wrought. So the infamous decision was made to make Jean Grey and Phoenix two seperate beings. Jean was left at the bottom of the bay to heal, while Phoenix impersonated her and eventually "lost control", to put it lightly.[/quote[

Yeah,I covered some of that a few post afterwards,which is why is I confused by the original plan(Jean not dieing). I'd heard they wante to exorcise Phoenix but the appropriately named Intheknow tells another side. But thanks for the effort.

As far as Jean's powers taking on a life of their own, this is a very likely scenario IMO. I like to believe Jean gave "birth" to the Phoenix as a result of the Annie Richardson incident, back when she was a child. A defense mechanism of sorts, the ultimate power manifestation is created by her subconscious and triggered when Jean is scared or threatened. It is able to leave and return to her, it's "mother", sort of like a witch's familiar. Other powerful psis have executed similar feats, subconsciously again mind you. Think Professor Xavier's Onslaught persona or Franklin Richards' Heroes Reborn universe. These "creations", like Phoenix, were sustained and maintained by the individual who spawned them. In most cases unbeknownst, at least on most levels, to the originators of these enigmatic occurrences. It's complicated I know, but altogether fascinating nonetheless. None of this is canon mind you, just some of my personal theories. Which are flexible BTW, so anyone interested can feel free to embelish them.

Yeah,I figure at some point(most likely after the Annie incident you mentioned) Jean's mind summoned up this archetypical image to comfort her. Its possible that Jean began to associate this Phoenix persona with her advanced abilities so much,that when Xavier put the mental blocks in her mind,they trapped the Phoenix there along with her abilities.It got buried in her subsconcious,probably not fully aware of itself in its early stages but still able to form its own "personality" through Jeans suppressed wishes and desires. When the radiation wore down the mental blocks Phoenix resurfaced and became dominant. As her body was dying it formed it formed a duplicate,and allowed her to heal. Then of course we have the whole Shi'ar mess,and Jean the edning of the Saga with Phoenix's death. What was actually destroyed was just Phoenix's own self-awareness and what was left sought out its original body.Et cetera.

 

[D-scythe]

I disagree. This is why I can't stand DC except for a few characters. Superman is exactly that, Superman. I avoid it.

Let me just add this quickly: I refuse to accept that whole endsong fiasco. Sorry, but I don't buy into the green white phoenix mess. I can't believe that some fans actually like that? Truly? Sigh.

Thats all I have to say on that. Jean is doesn't need the mess they made of the phoenix storyline.

Wha? You cannot "refuse" to accept anything; End Song is Marvel CANON. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can reject it and presume that it doesn't exist.

I didn't like Scott's psychic therapy sessions with Emma either. Scott didn't need Morrison to come along and make him "more interesting". But it's canon, just like End Song is.

 

[phoenixstorm]

Wha? You cannot "refuse" to accept anything; End Song is Marvel CANON. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can reject it and presume that it doesn't exist.

I didn't like Scott's psychic therapy sessions with Emma either. Scott didn't need Morrison to come along and make him "more interesting". But it's canon, just like End Song is.

See this is where you are wrong. I can reject it. I can also refuse to buy their books. They lost me a long time ago, honestly. A few years ago I collected every x title except deadpool. I also collected the avengers. I purchased other books when a crossover that interested me happened.

Do you know how much money I was shoving marvels way every month? Not counting annuals? Yeah they don't need my money to survive so that's fine. I'll keep my money in my pocket and not pay for crap.

Unlike you when they bastardize my favorite book I leave. The whole scott emma thing is just wrong and nasty!

Also the fans rejected beast being gay and guess what? Yes you guessed it he's not gay anymore. You see the thing with having writers go wily nily over your universe means that sooner or later what I don't like will probably be changed. So who will be right then?

I'm still not coming back. They care too little for their fanbase. I've been a comic fan since my uncle gave me my first Xmen when I was five years old. That was a long time ago.

But no longer.

Edit:

And I've seen the new Ms. Marvel series and I love carol danvers and I want to buy it but I won't. The only money marvel has gotten from me is when I bought my xmen ticket.