Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[aidol]

You really think all of these people are fragments of Jean's powers?

not of jean's but of the phoenix's

 

[HandOfFate]

not of jean's but of the phoenix's

Thank You

Did some editing on the pervious page

 

[Intheknow101]

You know full well I didn't mean that all they are are fragments of Jean. All these people in and of themselves are not fragments of Jean. Only when they've been visited by a fragment and become possessed by it and start wearing a phoenix costume. Like Emma. Even Wolverine and Martha were going to the White hot room so just because you're in the white hot room doesn't mean you're phoenix. We know full well none of these people are phoenix. Every living thing passes through there.

I'm not assuming they are fragments of Jean Grey's power. They are possessed by fragments of Jean's shattered self. Big difference. They are people in their own right, much like Emma or Quentin.

We've seem many many realities have Jean as Phoenix. Not just one. I can't say the same for any of these others.

Emma wasn't seen in the white hot room, but neither were any of your other supposed phoenixes. So if we were to take your theory that all the people shown in the white hot room were Phoenixes we should have seen Giraud, "Storm" (the real Storm of that reality is dead), heck even Rachel there. But we didn't.

What we do know is that Quentin was and he has also come in contact with one of Jean's phoenix fragments but was no where a phoenix. He's there too, which is a huge hint as to the type of people that are there and why ie people who have come in contact with or possessed by a phoenix fragment.

 

[GL1]

We've seem many many realities have Jean as Phoenix. Not just one. I can't say the same for any of these others.

I'm not sure about the rest of your arguement, but I have to point out that this branch of the arguement is weak and useless to you. I was going to ignore it, but this is the second time it's come up.

We have seen many alternate realities, but there are an infinite amount, we could a million jean-is-phoenix realities and that wouldn't say anything about the infinite other realities we haven't seen. It's not like we pick realities at random, EVERY alternate reality we've seen is related to 616 in some way, so having basic similarities, like Cyclops being an X-Man and not an Avenger, is expected, and hardly proof of anything in regards to all realities.

As for your whole arguement, you bid that the white hot room is full of thoes touched by fragments of JeanPhoenix (I think that's what you're saying). Okie doke. Here's my question: If the Phoenix exists before time, then how does it create the mutant Jean Grey? Is the Phoenix responsible for Jean's genetic code, time of birth and naming? Is the universe naturally constructed so that the birth and naming of Jean Grey is unavoidable? Is it magic? Is time being rewritten... or is outside of time being rewritten?

 

[aidol]

The White Hot room inside the M'Kraan Crystal houses every being that the Phoenix has taken over as her host body.....but i guess if she didn't stay long enough to put a piece of her inside that host they aren't really the host.....that's why the main people are inside that room while the minor ones she doesn't regulary use aren't there.

 

[HandOfFate]

You know full well I didn't mean that all they are are fragments of Jean. All these people in and of themselves are not fragments of Jean. Only when they've been visited by a fragment and become possessed by it and start wearing a phoenix costume.

Again, why are you assuming that their Phoenix Force abilities have to be fragments of Jean’s powers? These characters can have their own connection to the Phoenix Force, without having a fragment of Jean within them.

Like Emma. Even Wolverine and Martha were going to the White hot room so just because you're in the white hot room doesn't mean you're phoenix. We know full well none of these people are phoenix. Every living thing passes through there.

Not trying to split hairs but in the infinite possibilities of Earths, both Logan and Martha could be the host of the Phoenix Force in another universe.

The problem I have with your post is that you’re saying that in the infinite possibilities of the Marvel Universes, that nobody else but Jean could possible be the avatar of the Phoenix Force. Everybody else is using a fragment of her abilities.

I'm not assuming they are fragments of Jean Grey's power. They are possessed by fragments of Jean's shattered self. Big difference. They are people in their own right, much like Emma or Quentin.

Again, why do these people have to be connected to Jean to have the Phoenix Force? While Jean is part of the Phoenix Force, she not the entire Phoenix Force.

Also, why are you assuming that these other avatars of the Phoenix Force come from the 616 universe? The fact that their talking about the life of the 616 universe means that they stand outside the natural laws of the cosmos.

We've seem many many realities have Jean as Phoenix. Not just one. I can't say the same for any of these others.

Jean is the most popular avatar of the Phoenix Force, so writers tend to write about her but this does not mean that there can’t be more avatars.

Emma wasn't seen in the white hot room, but neither were any of your other supposed phoenixes. So if we were to take your theory that all the people shown in the white hot room were Phoenixes we should have seen Giraud, "Storm" (the real Storm of that reality is dead), heck even Rachel there. But we didn't.

Do you really think an artist knows every person who has ever been the avatar of the Phoenix Force?

Also, the Storm of that reality might not be dead, she the Phoenix so she can come back any time.

What we do know is that Quentin was and he has also come in contact with one of Jean's phoenix fragments but was no where a phoenix. He's there too, which is a huge hint as to the type of people that are there and why ie people who have come in contact with or possessed by a phoenix fragment.

Again you’re assuming that Quentin couldn’t make contact with the Phoenix Force on his own or in another universe.

 

[javon]

This thread is getting a little confusing. But Hanfoffate and intheknow101, ya'll put up very strong arguments.

 

[Intheknow101]

Again, why are you assuming that their Phoenix Force abilities have to be fragments of Jean’s powers? These characters can have their own connection to the Phoenix Force, without having a fragment of Jean within them.



Not trying to split hairs but in the infinite possibilities of Earths, both Logan and Martha could be the host of the Phoenix Force in another universe.

The problem I have with your post is that you’re saying that in the infinite possibilities of the Marvel Universes, that nobody else but Jean could possible be the avatar of the Phoenix Force. Everybody else is using a fragment of her abilities.



Again, why do these people have to be connected to Jean to have the Phoenix Force? While Jean is part of the Phoenix Force, she not the entire Phoenix Force.

Also, why are you assuming that these other avatars of the Phoenix Force come from the 616 universe? The fact that their talking about the life of the 616 universe means that they stand outside the natural laws of the cosmos.



Jean is the most popular avatar of the Phoenix Force, so writers tend to write about her but this does not mean that there can’t be more avatars.



Do you really think an artist knows every person who has ever been the avatar of the Phoenix Force?

Also, the Storm of that reality might not be dead, she the Phoenix so she can come back any time.



Again you’re assuming that Quentin couldn’t make contact with the Phoenix Force on his own or in another universe.

Because it's been shown that the phoenix and Jean are one. Read freaking Endsong. You may not like what it says, but its been said. Deny to yourself all you want. It says blatantly in there. I'm assuming based on what we have seen of the phoenix mythos. We've been shown that fragments of Jean can bring not only power but life as well in the form of Maddie Pryor.

Except Logan and Martha are not omega level telepaths. Only omega level telepaths can hope to contain a fragment without burning out. Everybody experiences a transition into the white hot room if they're pure enough.

No but Morrison who created Quentin showed otherwise. He showed that he did expand his thoughts, is omega, and hence was seen in the white hot room. But no where is he a phoenix during his life.

You're asking me if the artist knew all the 'avatars of the phoenix'? Well I can ask you the same question, how was he supposed to know all the other people that have been possessed by it? the argument works both ways. You wonder why Emma wasn't in there, and she wasn't because how was the artist supposed to know.

Also from what I grathered in the End, Rachel and Cable can tap into the power too since they are Jean's children, but they don't become Phoenix.

I'm not sure about the rest of your arguement, but I have to point out that this branch of the arguement is weak and useless to you. I was going to ignore it, but this is the second time it's come up.

We have seen many alternate realities, but there are an infinite amount, we could a million jean-is-phoenix realities and that wouldn't say anything about the infinite other realities we haven't seen. It's not like we pick realities at random, EVERY alternate reality we've seen is related to 616 in some way, so having basic similarities, like Cyclops being an X-Man and not an Avenger, is expected, and hardly proof of anything in regards to all realities.

As for your whole arguement, you bid that the white hot room is full of thoes touched by fragments of JeanPhoenix (I think that's what you're saying). Okie doke. Here's my question: If the Phoenix exists before time, then how does it create the mutant Jean Grey? Is the Phoenix responsible for Jean's genetic code, time of birth and naming? Is the universe naturally constructed so that the birth and naming of Jean Grey is unavoidable? Is it magic? Is time being rewritten... or is outside of time being rewritten?

The point of bringing up so many realities that Jean is Phoenix is because there are just that many. I'm basing the fact that in almost every alternate reality where Jean Grey exists, she inevitably transforms into Phoenix.
You're assuming that just because there are a tons of realities out there that we don't know what they hold so Jean's not phoenix in them. True, but I'm basing it on the many that we have. You can't prove something by saying just because it isn't shown it must be true or false.
We have to follow the pattern that has been established. The divergences may be slighty different, but the core of these characters and their powers remain the same. Some sort of traumatic event will trigger Jean Grey into becoming Phoenix fully. But we've seen even as a child she is phoenix since she manifested the gold woman form and the phoenix raptor. It's in her genes.


Otherwise I can say Storm, for example, is actually a mutated rat in another reality because there a bazillion other realities so we can't assume she turns out the way she is seen in the 616 because we haven't seen them. That's ridiculous. Her core character traits will remain the same.

You're trying to prove something by saying that since we haven't seen it since it's another reality, than there's no guarantee that Jean is Phoenix. Well since we haven't seen it, there's no guarantee she isn't either. And based on the myriad of other realities and universes we've seen Jean has been phoenix.

You answered a lot of your questions pretty well already:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So... Jean was actually Born as just a mutant, but when she became the Phoenix she eventually went outside of time and thus, technically was always the Phoenix. That's understandable, actually. In fact, it makes, or at least allows, both statements true. It is true that Jean BECAME the Phoenix and it is also true that Jean has ALWAYS been Phoenix, since Phoenix is, apparently, not bound by time and the logics thereof.

(the paradox of time travel is similar to how Bishop continues to exist unchanged despite his future no longer existing the way it was since he managed to stop Onslaught from killing the X-Men. it's how like in Terminator for example, the horrible future was a result of Sarah Connor getting pregnant with a kid who was supposed to lead the rebellion against the machines. But there wouldn't have even been the kid and that particular future had the future soldier had not gone back in time to impregnate Sarah Connor in the first place. A way of explaining it is that time is cyclical)

 

[HandOfFate]

Because it's been shown that the phoenix and Jean are one. Read freaking Endsong. You may not like what it says, but its been said. Deny to yourself all you want. It says blatantly in there. I'm assuming based on what we have seen of the phoenix mythos.

Lord, you act like the Phoenix Endsong story is your version of the holy Phoenix Bible. While it's true Jean is part of the Phoenix Force, she is not the sole person to inherit its power. There are others who can wield the power of the Phoenix Force without any connection to Jean.

Except Logan and Martha are not omega level telepaths. Only omega level telepaths can hope to contain a fragment without burning out.

Actually you’re wrong. Giruad the wielder of the Phoenix Force in the Guardian of the Galaxy universe had no super-human powers at all. He was a normal human until he became the new host of the Phoenix Force. IIRC, even when he gained the Phoenix Force he still did not have telepathy. There also Amber in the Malibu universe, who possessed only energy ability but also became a host. Then there Storm in an alternate universe, as any X-fan can tell you, Ororo doesn’t possess telepathic abilities but she too become the avatar/cloned body of the Phoenix Force.

Let’s not forget that even Prof. X in the 616 universe has hosted the power of the Phoenix Force.

No but Morrison who created Quentin showed otherwise. He showed that he did expand his thoughts, is omega, and hence was seen in the white hot room. But no where is he a phoenix during his life.

Technically speaking, Jean didn’t become the fully Phoenix until she almost died.

 

[HandOfFate]

You're asking me if the artist knew all the 'avatars of the phoenix'? Well I can ask you the same question, how was he supposed to know all the other people that have been possessed by it? the argument works both ways. You wonder why Emma wasn't in there, and she wasn't because how was the artist supposed to know.

Your joking right? There an infinite number of other earths and you think he going to draw each one of them?

Whatever player

 

[javon]

^lmao!!!

 

[Intheknow101]

Lord, you act like the Phoenix Endsong story is your version of the holy Phoenix Bible. While it's true Jean is part of the Phoenix Force, she is not the sole person to inherit its power. There are others who can wield the power of the Phoenix Force without any connection to Jean.



Actually you’re wrong. Giruad the wielder of the Phoenix Force in the Guardian of the Galaxy universe had no super-human powers at all. He was a normal human until he became the new host of the Phoenix Force. IIRC, even when he gained the Phoenix Force he still did not have telepathy. There also Amber in the Malibu universe, who possessed only energy ability but also became a host. Then there Storm in an alternate universe, as any X-fan can tell you, Ororo doesn’t possess telepathic abilities but she too become the avatar/cloned body of the Phoenix Force.

Let’s not forget that even Prof. X in the 616 universe has hosted the power of the Phoenix Force.



Technically speaking, Jean didn’t become the fully Phoenix until she almost died.

Except Endsong and Morrison's run is nothing new. The fragments idea, White Phoenix, cocoon/egg, Kabbalah, white hot room, etc were all introduced long before these runs. They merely expanded on using continuity and plots of years and years of X-Men comics. You may not like it, but it's fact. Face them.

There are those who can wield the power, they're called Jean's children. It's stated in Classic X-Men by Death himself.

Of course Jean didn't FULLY became phoenix until the space shuttle incident. But she was phoenix none the less. Even as a child she projected the gold woman form and a phoenix raptor, YEARS before the shuttle incident.

If Storm was truly capable of hosting the phoenix force... the Shiar would have destroyed her in Phoenix Endsong. But they didn't because she wasn't capable, only being possessed by a fragment. Which means the Storm in the What if was genetically alterered or wasn't Storm at all (which it wasn't).

They were looking for omegas, and Storm was nothing more than a distraction for them. Becoming Phoenix is Jean's mutation, it's in her genes. New X-Men called her blood, Phoenix blood. The power courses through her veins. That means for there to be any Jean Grey, if it is in fact Jean, she will become Phoenix since becoming so is a part of her genetic makeup. All Jeans would in fact share the same genetic makeup and therefore the propensity to become/evolve into Phoenix sooner or later.

so what if you named Giraud and the Ultraverse chick? They were possessed by fragments. Much like how Emma and the firefly were.

 

[Intheknow101]

Your joking right? There an infinite number of other earths and you think he going to draw each one of them?

Whatever player

Then why are you questioning me on why Emma wasn't there? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You say Giraud and "fake Storm" were not shown because you didn't expect the artist to put everyone there. You expect to dismiss the fact that they're not all people who have been touched by the phoenix fragments since Emma is not there, but then you whine when I point out your so called other 'phoenixes' aren't there either.

I'm just turning back the same argument against you when you said that you didn't see Emma in there despite her being possessed by a fragment so everyone present must be Phoenixes. Well I'm using your same argument and saying how was Marc going to draw every single person who has come in contact with the million or so fragments, Emma included? Exactly.

player? Hey pot.

 

[aidol]

where did you get this picture?

 

[Intheknow101]

where did you get this picture?

Try reading New X-Men. 116-154.

 

[HandOfFate]

There are those who can wield the power, they're called Jean's children. It's stated in Classic X-Men by Death himself.

Jean is not the only person who can wield the power of the Phoenix Force. Just because somebody was possessed by a fragment of Jean’s power doesn’t mean that everybody who has ever been the host to the force are possessed by a fragment of Jean.

Get it.

If Storm was truly capable of hosting the phoenix force... the Shiar would have destroyed her in Phoenix Endsong.

Yeah, like they did all the other Omega mutants. Wait………..who did they destroy again?

Nobody would be the answer you’re looking for.

But they didn't because she wasn't capable, only being possessed by a fragment. Which means the Storm in the What if was genetically alterered or wasn't Storm at all (which it wasn't).

You don’t know that. That universe’s Storm went the same route as Jean. She tried to save the X-Men by using her power to counter the solar flare and ended up at the bottom of Jamaica Bay, just like Jean.

Your just assuming because you don’t like the fact that Jean is not always the Phoenix in every universe.

They were looking for omegas, and Storm was nothing more than a distraction for them.

You like doing that don’t you? You like put Storm down to try and prove something about Jean.

Becoming Phoenix is Jean's mutation, it's in her genes. New X-Men called her blood, Phoenix blood. The power courses through her veins. That means for there to be any Jean Grey, if it is in fact Jean, she will become Phoenix since becoming so is a part of her genetic makeup. All Jeans would in fact share the same genetic makeup and therefore the propensity to become/evolve into Phoenix sooner or later.

I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying she not the only one who can do it. Stop acting like she is the only person who can connect with the power of the Phoenix Force.

so what if you named Giraud and the Ultraverse chick? They were possessed by fragments. Much like how Emma and the firefly were.

Actually, they where possessed by the Phoenix Force, not fragment of anybody.

Then why are you questioning me on why Emma wasn't there? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You say Giraud and "fake Storm" were not shown because you didn't expect the artist to put everyone there.

Uh…I didn’t say anything about Emma being anywhere. What are you talking about? I was agreeing with you that Emma was not a true Phoenix.

I'm just turning back the same argument against you when you said that you didn't see Emma in there despite her being possessed by a fragment so everyone present must be Phoenixes. Well I'm using your same argument and saying how was Marc going to draw every single person who has come in contact with the million or so fragments, Emma included? Exactly.

What!?! Okay your smoking some good stuff. Give me some.

 

[javon]

You like doing that don’t you? You like put Storm down to try and prove something about Jean.

Yeah, I noticed that. I was about to ask why she keeps putting Storm in all of her explanations.

 

[Intheknow101]

Jean is not the only person who can wield the power of the Phoenix Force. Just because somebody was possessed by a fragment of Jean’s power doesn’t mean that everybody who has ever been the host to the force are possessed by a fragment of Jean.

Get it.



Yeah, like they did all the other Omega mutants. Wait………..who did they destroy again?

Nobody would be the answer you’re looking for.



You don’t know that. That universe’s Storm went the same route as Jean. She tried to save the X-Men by using her power to counter the solar flare and ended up at the bottom of Jamaica Bay, just like Jean.

Your just assuming because you don’t like the fact that Jean is not always the Phoenix in every universe.



You like doing that don’t you? You like put Storm down to try and prove something about Jean.



I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying she not the only one who can do it. Stop acting like she is the only person who can connect with the power of the Phoenix Force.



Actually, they where possessed by the Phoenix Force, not fragment of anybody.



Uh…I didn’t say anything about Emma being anywhere. What are you talking about? I was agreeing with you that Emma was not a true Phoenix.



What!?! Okay your smoking some good stuff. Give me some.

You have no proof that they are not being possessed and that it's not a fragment.

It could be or couldn't be, but based on the fact that there a billions of fragments capable of giving a bush leage psi like Emma Frost phoenix like abilities and even a costume, it can be assumed that Jean's fragments can come into contact with others.

They went after Quetin, the only other omega mutant in Phoenix Endsong and would have succeeded in killing him if not for the intervention of the X-Men and Jean. The Shiar aren't very bright people you know. Just because they didn't succeed doesn't mean they didn't try. And they went after all the omegas in the vacinity. Jean and Quentin.

Except in that universe it wouldn't have been Storm. Like I said the ability is in Jean's blood, her "PHOENIX blood". It's in her genetics, the very fabric of what she is made of. That is why every Jean Grey we have seen becomes Phoenix sooner or later because if they are "Jean" they have the same genetics, the same predisposition. I'm not trying to put down Storm. It's just facts. I'm using her as an example because at least she's a character that is more well known than Giraud.
Now if Storm's genetic potential allows her the same transformation, surely we would have seen it elsewhere. Instead, the current 616 Storm we know the best has shown no such signs, and would have no Phoenix blood. Which she doesn't. Same with many other Storms that we've seen throughout the multiverse. Only the "what if Storm" came into contact with a phoenix fragment, not a genetic predisposition.

Possessed by a fragment. A Fraction of infinity is infinity.

 

[Intheknow101]

Yeah, I noticed that. I was about to ask why she keeps putting Storm in all of her explanations.

Are you daft? We're talking about the What if "Storm" and how it relates to the phoenix fragments. Thats how she came into the topic.

 

[javon]

That aint what he said...

 

[HandOfFate]

You have no proof that they are not being possessed and that it's not a fragment.

It could be or couldn't be.

And right there is where this debate ends because this has just become pointless. We’re talking about something that neither of us has exact knowledge on.

Until next time.

 

[Mike059jig]

Glad that Jean and the Pheonix are one now...puts closure to that situation that she is the jean/pheonix once and for all

 

[GL1]

Because it's been shown that the phoenix and Jean are one. Read freaking Endsong. You may not like what it says, but its been said. Deny to yourself all you want. It says blatantly in there.

But it does not explain how Jean, a mutant born at a specific time, has an origin outside of time, thusly, it suggests that while Phoenix and Jean now are one, that they were not always so. Perhaps they were, but it's hard to explain without saying that Phoenix/Jean created Jean Grey, and thus, arranged her parents, yeah her whole lineage, yes, even controlled world events to ensure that Jean Grey would be born.

The point of bringing up so many realities that Jean is Phoenix is because there are just that many. I'm basing the fact that in almost every alternate reality where Jean Grey exists, she inevitably transforms into Phoenix.

You're assuming that just because there are a tons of realities out there that we don't know what they hold so Jean's not phoenix in them. True, but I'm basing it on the many that we have. You can't prove something by saying just because it isn't shown it must be true or false.

We have to follow the pattern that has been established. The divergences may be slighty different, but the core of these characters and their powers remain the same. Some sort of traumatic event will trigger Jean Grey into becoming Phoenix fully. But we've seen even as a child she is phoenix since she manifested the gold woman form and the phoenix raptor. It's in her genes.

Well, I'm not doing too much assuming. Infinity is infinity. You split it in half and there's still infinity. There are an infinite amount of realities where Jean is Phoenix. There are an infinite amount of realities where Storm is Phoenix. Infinity covers everything. Furthermore, there are an infinite number of realities where Jean Grey does not exist. Does that mean, in those realities, Phoenix does not exist? The realities where Jean is not Phoenix and Jean doesn't exist should logically be out there, so my question is: What Happens to the Phoenix in them, or is the Phoenix capable of not allowing those realities to exist?

Otherwise I can say Storm, for example, is actually a mutated rat in another reality because there a bazillion other realities so we can't assume she turns out the way she is seen in the 616 because we haven't seen them. That's ridiculous. Her core character traits will remain the same.

The only thing that makes character traits remain the same is writer preference... it has nothing to do with logic. Infinity is Infinity.

You're trying to prove something by saying that since we haven't seen it since it's another reality, than there's no guarantee that Jean is Phoenix. Well since we haven't seen it, there's no guarantee she isn't either. And based on the myriad of other realities and universes we've seen Jean has been phoenix.

Again, infinite realities. Unless the Phoenix can and does eradicate all realities where Jean never meets the Phoenix Force or where Jean doesn't exist, then those realities, logically, must exist.

(the paradox of time travel is similar to how Bishop continues to exist unchanged despite his future no longer existing the way it was since he managed to stop Onslaught from killing the X-Men. it's how like in Terminator for example, the horrible future was a result of Sarah Connor getting pregnant with a kid who was supposed to lead the rebellion against the machines. But there wouldn't have even been the kid and that particular future had the future soldier had not gone back in time to impregnate Sarah Connor in the first place. A way of explaining it is that time is cyclical)

So... Phoenix created Jean Grey?

 

[javon]

I didn't see you in awhile..

 

[Valechan]

Too much to read... two things I saw in between

1) in Endsong, the Shi'ars were looking for telepath omegas, I didn't see them trying to kill Bobby either.

2) in What if 79, the Phoenix Force created a duplicate body of Storm and placed herself in Ororo's stead. The same thing it did on 616 with Jean.