Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[Valechan]

Sure, get personal, it's what lesser minds do to divert attention from the real issue here. Someone brought the issue of alternate realities, and that same someone constantly uses Storm in his posts. If they speak badly of my goddess then I am here to defend her. It's as simple as that. Go back and try to see who started talking about her and blame that person.

And all your big attack at me only proves me right, there are no interesting Jean versions throughout the multiverse. I said it once and I'll say it again, without the Phoenix Force, Jean is nothing.

 

[Cosmic Mind]

and what about storm??? being other alternates mean that they are trying to make her superior in some way......sort of, to keep a balance with jean...... but.....let's get over it, will should stick the main theme:Jean and the Phoenix Force, not Storm and her alternates versions..

 

[Valechan]

I want to see Jean and her alternate versions, I know Ororo's far too well.

 

[BrianWilly]

I don't care about alternate versions of anyone. "Wow, in this reality, Cyclops is a giant...a giant SQUID, that is!" It's good for a cheap laugh, but ultimately what does it have to do with the character? The whole point is that it isn't the character. I couldn't care less if Jean was queen of China in dimension 3578257890, I care about her in the one reality that actually matters.

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

Sure, get personal, it's what lesser minds do to divert attention from the real issue here.

Stop your cryin', ya big baby! And seriously, the day I'm your lesser in anything is the day Storm's a better character than Jean... which is when the world ends and all we've come to know disappears... which is... NEVER! Besides, the "real issue here", is your continued and constant TROLLING in Jean's threads. You know it, I know it, and everybody else friggin' knows it! Go back and read Cyclops' post at the beginning of this very thread. He predicted the outcome of you entering and turning it into yet another one of your tired Storm vs. Jean debacles, which by now you must have patented.


Someone brought the issue of alternate realities, and that same someone constantly uses Storm in his posts.

The issue was brought up by SOMEONE trying to weaken the idea that Jean and Phoenix are one. They argued that if it were so, how come Jean's not Phoenix in all realities? We proved that in most cases she IS Phoenix, if not all of them... I can't recall exactly. Her detractors, mostly Storm fans not surprisingly, then took this opportunity to put a spin on their attacks by saying Jean's not interesting without the Phoenix aspect. That development reeked of desperation, a tactic of an ailing defense and a sure sign they were losing the debate. In fact, much like you sound NOW Sebita.


If they speak badly of my goddess then I am here to defend her. It's as simple as that. Go back and try to see who started talking about her and blame that person.

OMG, will you listen to yourself! You know, it's great that you're so passionate, it really is. But not at the expense of other characters, who you know are favored by other X-Men fans. Besides, you're not fooling anyone with your noble and altruistic act. Your nowhere near subtle enough to pull that BS off, so forget it!


And all your big attack at me only proves me right, there are no interesting Jean versions throughout the multiverse. I said it once and I'll say it again, without the Phoenix Force, Jean is nothing.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no authority on all this multiverse crap, but I'm plenty familiar with 616, Ultimate, and AoA. Yes, Jean is Phoenix in all three, but the only thing they changed about Storm is maybe her background. She's still an African-American woman with white hair who controls the weather. These other incarnations you referenced, Man-Storm or whatever... LOL , I've never even heard of. Frankly, I don't read comics regularly anymore, and haven't for some time. I was soured on them years ago for various reasons, mostly what I saw as mishandling. A defining lack of cohesive direction in the X-books, if you will. So with that said, I'm not avoiding anything, I'm just not at liberty to discuss this paticular topic in depth. BTW, not debating on a subject I'm less confident in would be considered pretty smart in most circles. It might even be thought of as humble and knowing my limits, hardly the traits of a lesser mind.

You can say that last part all you want, 'til you're blue in the face for all I care. It will NEVER make it FACT, it will ALWAYS be JUST YOUR OPNION! And quite honestly, YOUR OPINION MEANS ABSOLUTELY AND POSTIVELY NOTHING TO ME!!! So please, for the love of all that is holy... TAKE IT ELSEWHERE... TROLL!!!

 

[Valechan]

You don't even read comics? Then your opinion is worthless crap then. Read the comics, then speak you great muggle

 

[HandOfFate]

You don't even read comics? Then your opinion is worthless crap then. Read the comics, then speak you great muggle

I was going to respond to PSINGRAPHD but... then Sebita made a good point. Why should I respone to you if you don't read the comic?

Not saying you don’t have some general knowledge of the characters but you should go read the comics and then tell me your opinion, until then your just wasting my time.

Hope that didn’t come off rude or anything.

Sorry, I edited my post.

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

I was going to respond to PSINGRAPHD but... then Sebita made a good point. Why should I respone to you if you don't read the comic?

NO! Sebita didn't even have a point to begin with! What's worse, is you championing it, in all your blissful ignorance. You should stop worrying about me reading comics and learn how to just READ THOROUGHLY, then comprehend, MY POSTS BEFORE RESPONDING! What I actually said is, "Frankly, I don't read comics REGULARLY ANYMORE...", or something to that affect.

The rest of my original response got deleted when I tried submitting, it said something 'bout the server being too busy right now. I'm not going to try and recall everything, as it was rather lengthy and got quite nasty. Bottom line is, I'VE READ COMICS... LOTS OF THEM! I religously bought for over ten years, starting in early '93 and ending in mid 2004. Although I quit actually reading them routinely in 2002, I continued to collect them. Uncanny, X-Men, and all their peripherals were consumed by my voracious appetite to complete. Only in the last couple of years have I become more selective, buying Endsong of course, as well as some Ultimate and Astonishing here and there. My collection consists of Uncanny, somewhere in the early 200's to 'round 400 I think. X-Men from the beginning to over 150, lots of X-Factor, Excalibur, and all of Generation X. X-Force, Wolverine, as well as minis and annuals, weren't missed very often. There was a time when I was spending literally hundreds of dollars on over 150 comics a month. Practically all of Marvel(besides the X stuff, there was Avengers, FF, IM, Spidey, DD, Cap, Hulk & countless others), a good chunk of DC(JLA, GL, Birds of Prey, Nightwing, Vertigo, etc.), and some Top Cow/Image/Dark Horse stuff for good measure. Gotta have the indies for some cred, no doubt. So I think you'll agree that I possess more than just "general knowledge".

 

[HandOfFate]

I was going to respond to PSINGRAPHD but... then Sebita made a good point. Why should I respone to you if you don't read the comic?

[/b]NO! Sebita didn't even have a point to begin with! What's worse, is you championing it, in all your blissful ignorance. You should stop worrying about me reading comics and learn how to just READ THOROUGHLY, then comprehend, MY POSTS BEFORE RESPONDING! What I actually said is,
"Frankly, I don't read comics REGULARLY ANYMORE...", or something to that affect.[/b]



Not saying you don

Like I said "WASTE OF TIME".

Anyway did anybody get the latest OHOTMU because on another board somebody just wrote that the Phoenix Force is said to be the counterpart to the Living Tribunal.

You know the guy who is second only to GOD, not sure how I feel about this.

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

Like I said "WASTE OF TIME".

What, you don't know what the words "REGULARLY" and "ANYMORE" MEAN?! Besides, what is going on in the books right now that could possibly enlighten me on the Jean/Phoenix mythos? She died in '04, NOT a coincidence I stopped collecting then BTW, and currently only exists actively in Ultimate. So bring IT, little boy, you'll make a nice snack to hold me over before the real meal gets here! I suggest you read my original response to your post again. It's been edited to include some of what was lost in submission, including a brief summary of my comics reading history. ENJOY!

 

[HandOfFate]

What, you don't know what the words "REGULARLY" and "ANYMORE" MEAN?! Besides, what is going on in the books right now that could possibly enlighten me on the Jean/Phoenix mythos? She died in '04, NOT a coincidence I stopped collecting then BTW, and currently only exists actively in Ultimate.

Have you even read Phoenix: Endsong?

So bring IT, little boy, you'll make a nice snack to hold me over before the real meal gets here!

Sigh...your joking right. Now keep in mind I'm a grown ass man whose probably forgotten more then you'll ever know.

I suggest you read my original response to your post again. It's been edited to include some of what was lost in submission, including a brief summary of my comics reading history. ENJOY!

Sorry, don't care. Unless you say something of interest next time I probably will not reply to you again.

Thank You

 

[rabidfanboy]

Anyway did anybody get the latest OHOTMU because on another board somebody just wrote that the Phoenix Force is said to be the counterpart to the Living Tribunal.

You know the guy who is second only to GOD, not sure how I feel about this.

That has actually already been previously stated, Phoenix is second only to the creator, by the Watcher and in the old marvel index.

 

[GL1]

Intheknow101 has already explained the time paradox quite well, imo, in ways that I hadn't even thought of. The White Hot Room, the birthplace of the Phoenix and everything else, exists outside of time and space. Time has no meaning there, so Jean Grey could be the Phoenix from the very beginning of time right up to the very end. The physical body of the Phoenix, Jean Grey, was born into the timestream at a specific date in the 20th century, yes, but that doesn't really mean anything because, outside of the timestream, she has always existed.

The paradox is not complete. Jean Grey has a physical body type, human given name and personality. Traditionally this would have come from her parents, their DNA and environment, in the 20th century. You're saying that Jean Grey was the Phoenix at the beginning of time, outside of time and all that. So where did her name, personality and physical description come from? And why does it match up with something created by a specific process of events occuring in the 20th century? Did her parents also exist before time began?

You're talking about character personality and, perhaps, character history. That's not really the same thing as character traits so far as it concerns this discussion. Yes, Storm might be a New York car thief in one reality, but she's still Storm with recognizable Storm traits such as her gender, her race, and her powers. If she was all of a sudden an middle-aged male Asian with laser powers in another reality, I don't think there's any way to logically argue that that's still Storm.

True, it has to be the same person, simply with a different set of events taking place after their birth. Regardless of power changes, personality changes and traits, if they were born at the same time to the same parents, especially with the same DNA, it's the same person.

But if you're going to assume something is true just because it might be true in some oddball reality 75 degrees displaced from the 616, there's no point at all in trying to put meaning or definitions to anything at all. I could say that Jubilee is actually the true Phoenix since it might be possible in the 3567348752 reality or something, but there's no basis for that. You can't prove a negative with another negative and call it evidence. On the other hand, we know that Jean Grey is the Phoenix in this reality. That is fact, and really the only thing that truly matters. As a bonus, we have evidence showing that she is the Phoenix in multiple other realities. That merely strengthens the notion that she is the Phoenix in this one since her character traits ought to be the same.

You say might. Why? It is 100% true and provable that Jubilee is the Phoenix in an infinite number of realities. Anything that is a possibility has happened in some other reality. Everytime a choice is made, you create multiple realities. But I was never arguing that Jean Grey wasn't the Phoenix in this reality... though that brings up the question, does the White Hot Room exist outside of all realities? Even the realities in which the DC Universe occcurs? Or the Wildstorm? Or ours (or one like ours, since ours is real and these realities are not)? Hmm...

Jean Grey is Phoenix. I understand what you're saying, but the idea of the Phoenix Force actually creating a host for itself, or anything else for that matter, is really looking at it the wrong way. The Phoenix Force is not a person. It's a force. It's a force wielded by a person called the Phoenix, who is Jean Grey. It has no identifiably humane desires, and no personality beyond that which it copied off of its wielder, who is Jean Grey. It doesn't even really have the capacity to perform any actions whatsoever without being bonded to a host; moments where it does, as in Endsong, have always been exceptions to the norm, not the norm itself. The Shi'ar even remark on this, saying that it's bizarre for the Phoenix raptor to manifest without the X-Man Jean Grey. It belongs to her and she belongs to it, and the being known as the Phoenix, who is merely what Jean Grey is called when she accesses the Force, is the one really doing all the work. To say that the Phoenix Force created Jean Grey is like saying that magnetism created Magneto or something.

So why does the Jean Grey born in the 20th century look and think and turn into the Jean Grey who has always existed?

You can say it's the wrong way to look at it, but if the Phoenix Force makes sense, then there should be an answer to that question. I will accept: "I don't know," "Coincidence," or even "Magic" if that's all the writers have given us.

Now, that is not to say that the Phoenix Force is not sentient. It is. It speaks to Jean Grey periodically, it spoke to Rachel, and it is obviously self-aware, especially regarding its duties. But the Phoenix Force's sentience, stripped of all connection to Jean Grey's life, memories, and personality, is merely comparable to that of a robot or machine. It's like a computer that does what it does when it needs to since that's what it's supposed to do. That's why it needs a host at all, someone to tell the computer what to do.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[HandOfFate]

That has actually already been previously stated, Phoenix is second only to the creator, by the Watcher and in the old marvel index.

Well its never been shown to be that powerful. AAMOF, most writer keep it at around Galactus level.

To tell you the truth, I really don't mind it being even more powerful then Galactus but when you say the Living Tribunal is it's counterpart that saying a lot.

I will admit this does help me out in my next JLA Vs X-Men debate.

 

[rabidfanboy]

I like to think the only time Phoenix will ever reach that level of power is when she ends the current universe and restarts the cycle.

Everything else leading up to that point is just around Galactus level.

 

[HandOfFate]

I like to think the only time Phoenix will ever reach that level of power is when she ends the current universe and restarts the cycle.

Everything else leading up to that point is just around Galactus level.

Hmmm...I actually like that idea. It somewhat fit into the Phoenix Force's job during the Earth X storyline.

 

[aidol]

Well its never been shown to be that powerful. AAMOF, most writer keep it at around Galactus level.

To tell you the truth, I really don't mind it being even more powerful then Galactus but when you say the Living Tribunal is it's counterpart that saying a lot.

I will admit this does help me out in my next JLA Vs X-Men debate.

I'd say that Galactus is weaker than Phoenix. She might not be second to the living tribunal, because you've got eternity in there too....phoenix is probably thrid from the top then.

 

[tirminyl]

As someone mentioned Phoenix is second to creator. She receives her power from all that ever was, is and will be in all of the multi-verse.

Also I have read before that Phoenix (may have been Rachel Summers) beat Galactus twice. Once she wasn't at full power.

 

[HandOfFate]

As someone mentioned Phoenix is second to creator. She receives her power from all that ever was, is and will be in all of the multi-verse.

Also I have read before that Phoenix (may have been Rachel Summers) beat Galactus twice. Once she wasn't at full power.

If you want to, you can read the Phoenix Vs Galactus storyline on page 8 of this thread.

IIRC, she was at full power during the story.

 

[javon]

WE GET THE PICTURE!!! YOU HATE JEAN AND LOVE STORM!!!
And apparently, not to mention sadly, you can't cope with the fact that other people feel differently. How... pathetic.

Uh..this is a bit stupid,no offense. Do you know how much Phoenix fans have brought up Storm in this thread? And I even had to ask why they were bringing her up so much. And yes, some people feel differently about Storm, and then again, some people don't.

 

[Valechan]

I buy the handbooks regularly, as soon as I get the L volume I'll read it. Do have in mind that the handbooks refer to the Phoenix Force as something completely different and separate from Jean Grey, Jean is just its host.

 

[GL1]

I buy the handbooks regularly, as soon as I get the L volume I'll read it. Do have in mind that the handbooks refer to the Phoenix Force as something completely different and separate from Jean Grey, Jean is just its host.

And herein is another problem with the Phoenix-Jean-Phoenix Force issue... not all the WRITERS agree... some are championing her as the final stage of evolution, some as a cosmic being from outside of time, others as the host for a sentinel cosmic being... and apparently, no one is able to answer the question why life incarnate is named Jean Grey, or if the Phoenix referred to herself as Jean Grey before Jean Grey was born...

If the writers agreed that Jean Grey is the most powerful force in the universe and that she has always existed and write off the coincidence of her eternal traits being manifested in a baby in the 20th century as "Magic" or "Science to difficult for humans to understand" ( a nice way to say it doesn't make sense)... well, then that would be fine, but not all the writers are doing that... is that because the word hasn't gotten out, or because everyone at marvel doesn't agree? Or is it purposefully vague?

 

[Valechan]

Perhaps it's vague on purpose, given that they change their view of the phoenix every five years or so. First she was, then she wasn't, then she had never been, then she had always been... they like to keep it vague to continue retconning it in the future.

 

[BrianWilly]

And herein is another problem with the Phoenix-Jean-Phoenix Force issue... not all the WRITERS agree... some are championing her as the final stage of evolution, some as a cosmic being from outside of time, others as the host for a sentinel cosmic being...

What exactly makes these things mutually exclusive? She is the final stage of evolution, the host for a sentient cosmic force from outside of time. There, nice and simple.

and apparently, no one is able to answer the question why life incarnate is named Jean Grey, or if the Phoenix referred to herself as Jean Grey before Jean Grey was born...

She is called Jean Grey because when she was born into the world in the 20th Century, her parents named her Jean Grey. Obviously the cosmic being known as the Phoenix didn't give herself the name of Jean Grey from the beginning of time. Jean Grey is the name of the mutant, the X-Man, that became the Phoenix. And then, because she entered into the White Hot Room after becoming the Phoenix, it came to be that the Phoenix was always Jean Grey and always will be because the White Hot Room is not subject to our understanding of time and space. Jean was born, became the Phoenix, then died, and then is spread out throughout the timelines so that she was always the Phoenix. I don't get why this is so hard to understand...it's complicated yes, but we're comic book fans; compared to Cable, this is relatively straightforward.

If the writers agreed that Jean Grey is the most powerful force in the universe and that she has always existed and write off the coincidence of her eternal traits being manifested in a baby in the 20th century as "Magic" or "Science to difficult for humans to understand" ( a nice way to say it doesn't make sense)... well, then that would be fine, but not all the writers are doing that... is that because the word hasn't gotten out, or because everyone at marvel doesn't agree? Or is it purposefully vague?

I don't know what you mean about the word not having gotten about. As of the last seven or eight years, every writer who's written about the Phoenix has agreed on what she is.

The only inconsistencies about the Phoenix and what writers agree on were caused by the original retcon that told us, unconvincingly, that Jean and the Phoenix weren't the same person. Now that retcon has been invalidated, and the Phoenix mythos is once again restored to what it originally was.

 

[rabidfanboy]

Also I have read before that Phoenix (may have been Rachel Summers) beat Galactus twice. Once she wasn't at full power.

An alternate Jean also did that in a What If comic.