sebita said:
You know what doesn't sit right with me? The part about "spread out throughout the timelines "... we've seen other Phoenix Forces that have nothing to do with Jean Grey. By saying this you're telling us that there is only 1 Phoenix Force in the Multiverse and that Phoenix Force is the one from Earth 616. Which is wrong. We've seen several Phoenix Forces around, just like there is an Eternity for each reality there is a Phoenix Force for each reality, there isn't just 1 Phoenix Force. That's when this whole theory you try to pass as truth gets blown up.
When I said that she was spread out throughout timelines, I was referring to those within the 616 reality. Like I said, I don't pretend to understand nor do I care about any weird alternate realities if they don't directly affect this one.
GL1 said:
Where are the others of her race who have evolved into Phoenixes, should not they also be outside of time with her... and if so, how can she be "The" Phoenix if all races, allowed to evolve, will become Phoenixes as well and join her outside of time...
You're contradicting yourself here. In one breath you're asking why there aren't more Phoenixes...and in another breath you're asking why there
are more Phoenixes.
Obviously you can manipulate or even host the Phoenix Force without being "the" Phoenix. We see a lot of people wearing Phoenix costumes inside the White Hot Room, including Quentin Quire. We know enough to assume that they're either Phoenixes from alternate realities or people from this one who have evolved into Phoenixes...we just don't conclusively know which of the two it is. Either way, even
they refer to Jean Grey as the White Phoenix of the Crown. Even amongst those who have accessed the White Hot Room (and mind you, you don't
have to be a Phoenix to get into the White Hot Room...both Logan and Martha Johanssen eventually did), Jean is considered special.
You do bring up an interesting point, though, that the destiny of human evolution is to bring them to Phoenix-level beings, and I can't wait for later writers to some day explore this.
GL1 said:
So, basically, by saying 'not subject to our understanding of time and space.' you're saying that it doesn't make sense. Because spreading myself throughout timelines will not affect my past self, thus it cannot be accurately said that 1 yr old Jean was the Phoenix, if this fragment spreading is the supposed cause of Jean's eternal nature.
I say "'not subject to our understanding of time and space" because we perceive time as being linear. If you are outside of time and space, things don't have to occur linearly. Things that haven't happened yet have already happened. Jean was the Phoenix before she wasn't, and she wasn't the Phoenix before she was. It's very abstract, but it makes sense within its own rules.
One year old Jean was the Phoenix because she was the Phoenix in the past and will be in the future. She was the Phoenix because housed in her genes was the ultimate mutation, "Phoenix blood," waiting to manifest itself. It was, literally, her destiny. I don't know how to make it any plainer...how can she
not have been the Phoenix when she was one year old, considering that being the Phoenix is an aspect of her mutation? Saying that she wasn't the Phoenix is like saying that she wasn't Jean Grey.
GL1 said:
Hmm... perhaps so, however, the stories I've read portray a very different woman when Jean uses her TK and when Jean uses her fiery bird aura. Mood and priority shifts every time.
As far back as
X-Men #70 -- which was in 1998, mind you -- Jean's telekinetic and telepathic powers were
once again beginning to resemble the
Phoenix raptor effect. This was referred to as an exploration of her natural powers. How can Phoenix fire be a natural part of her powers if she and the Phoenix are separate things? The seeds of returning the Phoenix to her roots were planted long before Morrison and Pak came along and cemented it.
Here's what happened: they
tried to make Jean separate from the Phoenix. They tried so hard...and it simply didn't take. Long before Morrison, long before even X-Men #70, shades and aspects of the Phoenix kept popping back into Jean's life. Even the memories of the "clone" Jean from the Dark Phoenix Saga and those of Madelyne Pryor were eventually reabsorbed back into Jean during X-Factor. In every form we've ever seen Jean Grey take, whether it's the cartoons or the movies or the Ultimate universe, she eventually becomes the Phoenix again. Face it: the Phoenix was such an integral part of the X-Men mythos that it's become an integral part of Jean. Not only are they inseparable narratively, but they are inseparable meta-narratively as well.
GL1 said:
I think this thread is pointing out several other inconsistencies. Perhaps they can be smoothed over, and perhaps that was part of the point of Endsong (which will likely further be continued in Warsong), enough so that Phoenix fans can claim Jean's eternalness happily, however, non Phoenix fans remain, on the whole unconvinced or confused. I've suggested some reasons for this confusion, however, I think you're just happy with Endsong's conclusions, especially since it cements what you were thinking before hand.
That's great and perhaps true, but that still doesn't mean I'm wrong.
If non-Phoenix fans remain unconvinced or confused, I suggest that they pay a bit more attention to how the recent stories have very succinctly answered all their questions already. Morever, I also suggest that the non-Phoenix fans ask themselves why they even care so much, considering that they're not even fans of the character in the first place.
GL1 said:
I see holes, honestly, and I think they've gone overboard with the character... it's silly to have a character that's beyond logic... you can hardly write about it...
You see holes because you want to see holes. You think that the character's beyond logic because you want to think that the character's beyond logic. You yourself said it: I can accept this readily because I'm a Phoenix fan. Can you honestly say that you haven't been intentionally looking for loopholes and flaws in the story from the moment you heard about Endsong, simply because it contradicts "what you were thinking beforehand?"
; compared to Cable, this is relatively straightforward.
