• The upgrade to XenForo 2.3.7 has now been completed. Please report any issues to our administrators.

Jeph Loeb Appointed Marvel's Head of Television

The problem with Marvel cartoons is that they keep trying to REINVENT their characters rather than just depict their adventures. DC's best years were all spent doing just that. Then came a lot of reinventive crap which you either loved or hated (personally speaking everything after JLU to BATB sucked for me). BATB is doing so well because it took the best of TAS and combined it with the nostalgia love we have for the '60s show.

The 90s cartoons were awesome because they took the classic comic stories we all knew and loved, reworked them to fit their limited character selection, and stuck them in half hour depictions. Sure, the acting is hammy and overly dramatic NOW, but then we all loved it.

Now you got freakin' super midgets.
 
Couldnt have said it any better Wolverine25th. Whenever Marvel tried to reinvent or redesign their characters it never worked out well. The only exception being X-men Evolution, which was pretty good in its final years. I dont know if Spectacular Spiderman would be considered a reinvention but that was the other exception, by far their best cartoon in a long long time. But all their other attempts were crap, Avengers: United they stand, Spiderman Unlimited, Fantastic Four, Ironman Armored Adventures (although apparently that show is doing well enough to warrant a second season).

Also another thing, if B:TAS taught us anything is that YOU DO NOT NEED TO DUMB YOUR SHOW DOWN TO APPEAL TO KIDS. Batman:TAS was a very dark show, but how many of us watched and loved it when we were kids? I'm not saying the cartoons all have to be dark and brooding, but you dont need to dumb things down and make everything all bubbly. Just adapt the comics and you'll do fine.
 
Yeah, but you also gotta remember back then we didn't have parent groups as adamant about blaming everything else for their shortcomings as parents.
 
I was writing a comic news article and I had to edit this in a few hours after the fact, like I didn't want to acknowledge it.

In a way, this is perhaps to replace Craig Kyle, who used to be in charge of all of Marvel's TV shows and DTV's in some way since 2000-2001 or so. He's been bumped upstairs to Marvel Studios as one of their movie writers. Chris Yost has been working on "AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES" but it seems he won't get to don Kyle's full hat. For a while it seemed Joe Quesada would run the TV arm AND the comics arm AND all the other stuff he does. In that respect, it seems Loeb will be replacing Kyle.

My personal theory is Disney is leaving every aspect of Marvel alone aside for TV, which it seems to be the most interested in. Disney has turned quite a few cheaply produced live action shows into billion dollar industries, and has been making TV cartoons for decades now. Heck, they owned a solid block of TV in the 80's and 90's. While Disney will likely want to see what movie franchises are left that haven't been licensed out to other companies (noise about a Doctor Strange movie was made today), but TV is an arm where they can start reaping profits very quickly, within a year or so. Hence, ties to some of Marvel's recent cartoons were cut to give way to new ones.

Loeb, at best, in the past few years has a writing style in which he assumes his readers are drooling malcontents with ADHD who crave small words, big action, and don't care about complicated tom-foolery where normal plot points should go. This has produced some god awful comics, but on TV that really makes him no worse than most other writers. Have you SEEN the drivel on TV these days? You can blame Loeb for running "HEROES" into the ground, but there are many other TV writers out there who probably wouldn't have done much better, or worse.

Loeb has some awesome stories to his credit, usually alongside Tim Sale, but also others. The problem is that they were many years ago, and he doesn't seem to be going back to it. His Starman has clearly run out, and he needs to either find another Writing Power Up or just hope he doesn't get too close to a Goomba.

Loeb's comics still sell, but he has a major case of delayed gratification; taking a subplot that in theory may be interesting and dragging it out way, way, way too long. Past the point where even the most devoted fan has all but lost interest. This might work if he was able to provide a twist, but usually he simply goes with the most obvious answer anyway. People were calling that Thunderbolt Ross was RULK back in HULK #2 or so. Did we REALLY need to wait about two years before making it official? I guessed who Red She Hulk was, when asked, on my first try, without having read one full issue of HULK. His "HEROES" episodes also had that tendency, to drag out stuff too long, while making you feel every tedious second.

Loeb is a writer who gets the job done, and by that I mean he turns in a script on time, he provides the obligatory fight scene and a few talking moments, and moves onto the next script. And that's fine for an editor who likes a workman. But as a creative artist who uses words to paint his canvases, he's just chugging out work instead of really doing something defining. On the upside, he does have many connections within Hollywood, especially after "HEROES", so he could assemble talent. If he is working as a producer type, who has an idea but hires others to pad it out, make it work, execute it, and so on, it could be okay.

Unless he makes a HULK show based on his run. Then I think the Mayans would be right and the apocalypse of 2012 is upon us.
 
Last edited:
What happened to Spectacular Spider-man was a travesty.It was the best Spider-man Show ever and the best Marvel cartoon in a while.It's a shame Sony and Disney couldn't come to an agreement.I wanted it to last at least as long as X-men:TAS or Batman:TAS.
 
Nobody has the patience for that anymore, unfortunately.
 
Certainly not Marvel. To be fair, WB allowed TEEN TITANS and THE BATMAN to run 5 seasons and get one direct to video film very recently (THE BATMAN ended in 2008, and TEEN TITANS I believe ended in 2005). Marvel, on the other hand, hasn't had a show that lasted beyond two seasons since X-MEN EVOLUTION, which ran 4 seasons (barely) from 2000-2003.

Part of the problem is licensing, since characters were licensed out for a while.

Frankly, it might have been better had Marvel told Sony that TSSM was always going to be "their" show and it would be on them whether to continue it or not. Instead they allowed the production to stop for over a year before basically saying the same thing. By then Wiesman had probably begun work for "YOUNG JUSTICE" for WB (since that series is set to begin this year, that means production HAD to have started by the end of 2009, since animation takes about a year to return from overseas), and everyone else had split up.

While a worse show, though, "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" was a major ratings success for NickToons. But that wasn't enough for Disney. They either want all shows to fit the Iron Man & Avengers stuff that the films or pushing, or they want 100% control. It wasn't enough that TSSM aired on Disney XD. Disney wanted THEIR Spidey show. The fact that a show is very good (TSSM) or gets good ratings (W&TXM) is irrelevant to corporate strategy. And that should give pause; that quality and success mean nothing to a corporate agenda.

While it was a more complicated show, as Kid's WB was involved with X-MEN EVOLUTION so Marvel would have always had to deal with WB to sell DVD's of that series, I could argue Marvel missed an opportunity there. Why? Because that show managed to attract an audience that is so elusive that Marvel rarely plans to ever attract it; teenage girls. That show was VERY hot with girls. In fact it still is; it has some 14,000 entries in Fan Fiction.net, where a majority of the writers are girls. Most of the fan sites for the show were and are run by girls. As annoying as it would have been to split profits with WB, would it have in Marvel's best, long term interest to try to satisfy and reap that audience? Yes. But instead, they missed the shot. They may never get it with a TV cartoon again. Especially now that TSSM is toast.

In the 7 years since EVOLUTION called it a series with 52 episodes in 2003, Marvel has had 5 TV cartoons pop up. As of this date, none have made it beyond a second season. Hell, it was news when IRON MAN: ARMORED ADVENTURES and MARVEL SUPER HERO SQUAD were renewed for a second season.

But, this is also a company that if they launch an ongoing title with little promotion featuring a little-known character with a little known creative team with a $4 price tag for the first issue, and it only lasts ten issues, they don't see it as a failure. They see it as two trades, and as an extra comic that helped them bury DC in market share by sheer volume of titles. The problem is "throw it all against a wall and see what sticks" is not an effective or rational strategy for competent, seasoned veterans of industry. It is the strategy of a chimpanzee who is still too young to have mastered using a stick as a tool.
 
http://www.newsarama.com/tv/jeph-loeb-talks-marvel-tv-100629.html

Newsarama interviews Jeph Loeb. Apparently my theory was correct and Disney wants Marvel to become more of a TV presence, and thus is throwing it weight around there. Snapping off TSSM and W&TXM were likely deck clearing exercises so that their next shows would be completely under Marvel/Disney control. Loeb will basically be like a producer for all of their small screen efforts; he'll influence how the writing goes, but he will be in charge of picking the writers for various TV shows and DTV's. A producer's influence is there from the top down and no text of script gets by without their approval, but they don't write everything alone.

He talks about BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES and BATMAN BEYOND being the gold standard of animation. It may serve to remind him that even BATMAN BEYOND lasted 3 entire seasons and had a DTV film, a feat that no Marvel show has accomplished in seven years. That is, not only will Loeb have to craft a great creative team behind a TV cartoon. Not only will it have to be a success. But Marvel has to KEEP IT AROUND LONGER THAN 2 SEASONS! The reason why those 90's shows never seem to die isn't simply due to nostalgia or quality; it was because they were on a damn long time. To date no Marvel show has matched the 5 season, 76 episode feat of X-MEN. Or even, for that matter, the 5 season, 65 episode feat of SPIDER-MAN. EVOLUTION at 4 seasons and 52 episodes has been the longest lasting Marvel cartoon in a decade, and that was a show until very recently was buried from any sort of syndication or rebroadcast due to having to deal with WB for it. Now, at least, Marvel airs it for free on their website as well as on YouTube and Hulu.

Loeb also is tasked with getting some sort of Marvel show on live action TV. The last was that BLADE TV series that lasted one season on SPIKE, that wasn't well received. Historically, the most successful was, of course, THE INCREDIBLE HULK that lasted from the 70's through the 80's with TV films. That is an arena where DC has excelled, with SMALLVILLE lasting 10 seasons and HUMAN TARGET getting underway. Loeb made sure not to mention BIRDS OF PREY, though, which was a misfire.

Although, again, love it or hate it, SMALLVILLE has lasted 10 seasons. That takes a lot of corporate patience and fortitude. Do Loeb, Disney, and Marvel have the same? Or will they put a lot of effort into things that are done in two years and just repeat the cycle?
 
Dread, thanks for the insightful look at the unfulfilled potential that is the Marvel animation & TV production. I hope that Jeph Loeb will defy expectation, and be the guy who will turn around Marvel's fortunes on the tube, and mount some competition against DC. However, my fear is that Disney will become too much of a control freak, and ignore quality in their bid to micro-manage the products, and churn out even worse shows than before. Or if shows do succeed, they'd can them for stupid reasons. I look at WB animation and I hate the fact that they have hits after hits on their hands, even though majority of them revolve around Batman and Superman, and just about nothing else. I believe Marvel has all the financial backing and creative talents to create animation series as great as B:TAS, but I question if they will ever pull it off.
 
Yes we did.
Yea it was the reason Spider-man:TAS was so heavily edited.The censors once told John Semper the main creative force behind the show that he could not have Ghost Rider guest appear in the show.When Semper said he wouldn't mention his demonic origins on the show they still told him no because Ghost Rider would inspire kids to set their heads on fire.:o
 
SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN was the closest a Marvel show has come to matching a Bruce Timm TV production in a damn long time, and it was a nugget of gold found in the middle of a corporate storm. Disney buying Marvel. Kid's WB dying as a network, then being replaced with CW 4kids, then moving to Disney XD, which waited ages to release new episodes while moving the schedule around. Corporately, Disney likely saw it as "Sony's show" and thus a nuisance to be eliminated. It didn't matter that it had a small but loyal fan base, and that it was excellent. Nor did it matter that WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN, over at NickToons, got historic ratings for that network. Both had to die in their prime because Disney didn't pay $4 billion so they'd have to compromise with other companies for a TV show here and there. If anything, Disney XD's move of buying TSSM for Season 2 was a master stroke. It put them in the best position to cull it so they could to "their" Spider-Man show on their network on their terms.

Alex Soto is directing that, and to be fair Soto was a fine director on "TEEN TITANS"; he worked on about 17 episodes of that, more than a whole season's worth. But Greg Wiesman or Victor Cook he isn't.

You're right that Disney could micro-manage everything Marvel TV does to death. In a way I am glad that at least they're not micro-managing the films or comic arms. I do understand the desire to expand on Marvel's TV presence. But the thing is, they've actually maintained a TV presence. What Marvel TV hasn't displayed is patience. Nearly every show of the last 7 years is dead after 26 episodes. And while that's nice for a DVD box set, you can't really syndicate that well, and it limits earning potential. It also makes fans who liked those shows bitter, and makes them believe that if Marvel has no patience for their own show, they shouldn't have any, either. I mean, BEN 10 in some form or another has lasted, what, 5-7 seasons now? The latest incarnation of TMNT lasted 7 seasons total (2003-2009), with a TV film. Where is the Marvel show with that staying power? Those 90's cartoons that ran for 5 years created so many fans who read comics today, who watch films, who play games. Where are the TV shows that created the fans of the next decade?

Nick has turned AVATAR: THE LAST AIRBENDER from a quirky "Americanime" to a big budget motion picture. Even KIM POSSIBLE has enjoyed a long life on syndication. X-MEN EVOLUTION could have ran in syndication a while, but WB was connected to that, and they're Marvel's rival. Marvel also never liked the compromises made to the show to please Kid's WB; the fact that it was both good and popular didn't matter. The irony is it may still end up more popular and longer lasting in fans' memories than WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN. And why? 4 seasons, 52 episodes. If a company doesn't care about a product for more than a year at a time, why should anyone else? Marvel believes signals don't matter, but they do. They totally, completely do. If I can tell that Marvel sometimes makes decisions with all the rationality of toddlers on a sugar high, too buzzed to think a step or two in the future, so can others.

"AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES" is apparently taking no chances; production on 52 episodes all at once has begun and been ongoing - two 26 episode seasons, basically, produced back to back. And that's a great first step, seriously. But it's just that - a first step. Especially since not even test footage of it has been made public in a year. "YOUNG JUSTICE" got a full press release, while the most of AVENGERS: EMH has gotten are some blurry unofficial images from the last Comic Con, and a shockingly candid interview Phil LaMarr had with Newsarama. Are they SERIOUS? This "Internet" thing has been around for ten years already and they don't know how to milk it?

"IRON MAN: ARMORED ADVENTURES" is there to capitalize on the Iron Man craze, even if it has little to do with him (teen Tony!). MARVEL SUPER HERO SQUAD is there for kids, but doesn't quite have the all ages charm of BATMAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD (which is in the middle of a second season, and for all we know is likely to get a third). As for "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN", the fact that all the buzz around it circulates around how irritated fans are that TSSM died is a bad sign. It will really have to come out swinging to not seem like a shameless attempt at "SPIDER-MAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD".

But back to Jeph Loeb. With his role in this capacity becoming clear, it could work. He has worked on TV for quite a while on a few shows. He does have connections in Hollywood that many in Marvel lack. And he won't be doing all the writing himself. If Marvel was going to promote from within for this venture, they have few better options than Loeb to run TV. Allen Heinberg always treats comic writing as a hobby, and not his day job (his day job is writing for chick drama medical shows). Joss Whedon's place is directing live action films. Greg Wiesman's working for WB now. Dan Slott wrote an episode of the last Fan Four cartoon (which was among the best of that show), but Loeb has more TV experience. Brian Bendis was involved in the production of the Mainframe CGI Spidey cartoon, until MTV micromanaged it to death. And Joe Quesada obviously did not want to do it all himself as well as running the rest of the comic division. From an internal promotion perspective, I can see the logic of tapping Loeb. And if he is better at judging the talent of someone else than he is of executing some of his own story ideas himself (while still having some vision of where he wants to go and how to get there), he'll do a good job.

People complain about how little story there was in SUPERMAN/BATMAN: PUBLIC ENEMIES as an animated DTV. It also was the best selling one, forcing WB to mine more of his run for DTV's. Loeb at the very least knows how to be a crowd pleasing writer and what works for TV audiences. The biggest question is whether Marvel TV, whether live action or animation, will catch up to trends quick enough that, one day, they can actually start them again. Because even at best, Marvel's animation arm is trying to catch up to stuff Bruce Timm did 4-12 years ago. As a Marvel fan, I'm more invested in their characters than DC, although DC has been better at getting them on small screen and keeping them there, even while relying on the same two franchises a lot (Superman and Batman). Marvel has a chance to really branch out here.

Another concern are that ratings for TV cartoons that aren't prime time comedy blocks on Fox or Adult Swim, Saturday Mornings in particular, have been death for years. Are Marvel/Disney jumping into the pool when it's already been drained? And if so, do they know how to fill it up again? Will chasing trends be enough? These are all big questions, and if Loeb and the rest don't have sufficient answers, this will lead to more frustration. If they do, and if AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES proves to be as awesome as some insiders claim it will be, than maybe even TSSM's sacrifice will be worth something.
 
Ya know, for all the love of SSM, I gotta say I was never a fan of it. That or Evolution. I watched them and they just didn't click with me. Ironically, I DID like Wolverine.
 
Hey Loeb. X-Factor Investigations live-action TV series.

Now.
 
What happened to Spectacular Spider-man was a travesty.It was the best Spider-man Show ever and the best Marvel cartoon in a while.It's a shame Sony and Disney couldn't come to an agreement.I wanted it to last at least as long as X-men:TAS or Batman:TAS.

Spider-Man: TAS was the best Spider-Man show ever.
 
I think SSM could've truly been the best Spiderman show ever had it had the chance to flex its muscles fully over 4-5 seasons. The only reason i say Spider-man: TAS is the best was because it was the longest and most complete interpretation of the character. It was one of the first cartoons to introduce season long story arcs that flowed from one episode to the other. Most cartoons were one-in done at the time but S:TAS had a continuous story arc from episode to episode. Plus, i have an incredible soft spot for the man who voiced Spidey, Chris Barnes. He's the voice i hear in my head whenever i read spiderman.
 
I want a Nightstalkers live action show. For reals.
 
Hey Loeb. X-Factor Investigations live-action TV series.

Now.

I second that. They can even have the cheap "Patrick Stewart (or someone from the Xmen movies) appears in the first episode" trick the suits love so much.
 
Reading Jeph Loeb's interview after being promoted as head of the Marvel TV division, it's nice to see him citing Smallville (for TV shows) and Batman: TAS and Batman Beyond as the model that they will try to emulate. I think Loeb and Marvel know that DC has been the leader on the tube for a long time, and if they want to succeed they will have to try to follow the leader, and hopefully one day will surpass them. I agree with Dread that in order for that to happen, they must not only have great series, but they also have to make sure those series will last longer than 4 years, which hasn't happened since the 90's (X-Men: Evolution only lasted 4 years). I just hope that Disney & Marvel will be able to deliver the goods, after canning such promising animated series as SSM & Wolverine & the X-Men. With both Disney & Pixar at their disposal, though, it can be done, but will it? I remain cautiously optimistic.
 
Hey Loeb. X-Factor Investigations live-action TV series.

Now.
Unfortunately I don't think that's possible due to fox.But I can definitely see a Runaways TV show on ABC Family.Even a Alias show on ABC.
 
The 60's Spider-Man cartoon was THE BEST Spider-Man cartoon ever made... :up: :word:

:o
 
SSM was better. :o
 
Unfortunately I don't think that's possible due to fox.But I can definitely see a Runaways TV show on ABC Family.Even a Alias show on ABC.

Damn, I forgot Fox owned the TV rights as well. They even sued Marvel for developing that Mutant X show that only vaguely resembled the X-Men.
 
Yea Haven't both Siryn and Multiple Man cameo in the movies already?
 
Unfortunately I don't think that's possible due to fox.But I can definitely see a Runaways TV show on ABC Family.Even a Alias show on ABC.

RUNAWAYS I believe is attached to Paramount. They are already planning a movie. Disney JUST missed 'em.

There's always a Power Pack show, though.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Members online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,262
Messages
22,074,084
Members
45,875
Latest member
2ShedsJakcson
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"