Jeph Loeb Appointed Marvel's Head of Television

[WOLVERINE25TH]

No love for Amazing Friends?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Dread, I always enjoy your posts, even when I find them infuriating. And I don't mean you're infuriating, I'm referring to the SSM situation. I honestly think Disney outbid everyone for Spectacular just so they could kill it.

Being an oldtimer who has been through all the series, starting with reruns of the 60's show in the early 70's (that's what got me into Spider-Man), I can honestly say Spectacular was the best. The 90's show was the best up until Spectacular.

Oh, and when I read Spidey, I still hear the 60's Spider-Man & JJJ in my head.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

When I read Spidey, I mostly get the 90s voices. Although for Spidey himself it's a mix between Barnes, Romano (because of the game, not the suckass Unlimited) and the guy from Amazing Friends.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

No love for Amazing Friends?

That was kind of meh. Not the greatness of Spectacular (or even the 90's series), but not as atrocious as Unlimited or the MTV series.

I fear Ultimate will be more of the Unlimited/MTV variety.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

RUNAWAYS I believe is attached to Paramount. They are already planning a movie. Disney JUST missed 'em.

There's always a Power Pack show, though.

A Power Pack cartoon like the current out-of-continuity mini-series would be awesome. They could basically make it a reverse version of Batman: The Brave and the Bold, with the rotating guest stars in each episode actually being the big-name characters. Have Captain America drop in for one episode, Iron Man for another, Thor, etc.--any of the characters that aren't tied to other studios.

 

[Dread]

A Power Pack cartoon like the current out-of-continuity mini-series would be awesome. They could basically make it a reverse version of Batman: The Brave and the Bold, with the rotating guest stars in each episode actually being the big-name characters. Have Captain America drop in for one episode, Iron Man for another, Thor, etc.--any of the characters that aren't tied to other studios.

That's possible. I do think, though, that such a format might make the Power Pack seem like guest characters in their own show. While that's okay for Batman, since he's had several cartoon shows to himself and is DC's healthiest franchise, it wouldn't work for the Pack, who are relative unknowns to the audience. That isn't to say that guest characters shouldn't appear; I think it would be a good way to show the Pack as part of the Marvel Universe. But they should remain the core focus of the series, and at least the first few episodes shouldn't be lost to guest stars.

It actually might be fun if the guest characters who are used, besides Thor or Captain America or Iron Man, are other kid heroes who aren't licensed out that are new to animation. An episode where Alex (the eldest) is perhaps crushing on new heroine Arana almost writes itself - or an episode with a young new hero who Julie likes, or if they can get Dazzler away from FOX, a nice little "what if Hannah Montanna was also a superheroine" kind of episode. There's a lot to work with besides, "Cap guest stars, and they fight Red Skull". After all, Marvel should be willing to try to get some of their newer blood characters on the small screen in some format. Marvel will already being using the BATMAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD format for ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN (which I am thinking may be closer to ULTIMATE MARVEL TEAM UP in execution), so the Pack would need something else to seem separate. How about as not only a fun superhero kid show with aliens that look like animals, but the show where a lot of the newer, younger Marvel heroes popped up? I doubt Gravity would be in an USM cartoon, but he could be fun in an episode of POWER PACK.

Part of me sadly doubts that they may get a cartoon, although who knows about live action.

In terms of live action, an ideal show would be HEROES FOR HIRE. You'd have a cast with powers that could be performed on a TV budget (Cage and Iron Fist really), as well as a diverse cast of characters catering to network demands for ethnically diverse casts: Luke Cage, Danny Rand, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, and Shang-Chi to iron it out (pun intended). Maybe the new Tarantula (Maria Vasquez). It would be like THE A-TEAM mixed with superheroes. Hell, even a "H4H" icon image could be easily designed and merchandised. Seriously, if this isn't high up on Loeb's memo for live action TV, than he is frightfully out of touch. Hell, Ray Park worked on "HEROES" which Loeb wrote for, and he was tied to the part of Rand for a live action film since 2000; not saying he's the only actor/martial artist available for the role, but it's only a few degrees of separation.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think it'd work just fine for Power Pack. They're still gonna be there in every episode and the plots will mostly come from their adventures.

 

[fifthfiend]

That's possible. I do think, though, that such a format might make the Power Pack seem like guest characters in their own show. While that's okay for Batman

This is like the opposite of how Batman B&B works; it's pretty much a show where the guest stars exist so that even more people can tell Batman how great he is.

 

[Specter313]

RUNAWAYS I believe is attached to Paramount. They are already planning a movie. Disney JUST missed 'em.

There's always a Power Pack show, though.

Well, Paramount doesn't own the rights, their deal is just to use them as a distributor. Marvel still owns the rights and can do with them what they like. If they were smart, they'd use the movie to set up a tv show, because it's going to be a pain to keep those kids looking close to the same age in between movies if they try a film franchise.

 

[Dread]

Dread, I always enjoy your posts, even when I find them infuriating. And I don't mean you're infuriating, I'm referring to the SSM situation. I honestly think Disney outbid everyone for Spectacular just so they could kill it.

Being an oldtimer who has been through all the series, starting with reruns of the 60's show in the early 70's (that's what got me into Spider-Man), I can honestly say Spectacular was the best. The 90's show was the best up until Spectacular.

Oh, and when I read Spidey, I still hear the 60's Spider-Man & JJJ in my head.

I believe that too. By corporate standards, it was a brilliant coup, and likely something expected of Disney, who despite the Mickey Mouse ears is just as much of a ruthless giant as any other. As a fan, it deeply and utterly blew. While I don't go as way back as you do (it is only due to syndication that I even have any memories of SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS as a toddler; by the time it's third and final season aired, I was about 2-3 years old).

I doubt ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN will be a worthy successor to "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN", and it may be years before another Spidey show comes close to that level of efficient, reliable excellence. Hell, "AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES" will be lucky to be that good that fast, considering team shows are a different beast. The "USM" cartoon essentially looks like ULTIMATE MARVEL TEAM UP, in which teenage Spidey teams up with a different hero every day, and they fight evil before the prom. Which could still be fun; I actually am not opposed to a MARVEL TEAM UP answer to BRAVE AND THE BOLD. It just isn't TSSM. Hell, TSSM was better than USM the comic could ever hope to be, albeit with 6-7 years of hindsight, which included a movie franchise.

I think it'd work just fine for Power Pack. They're still gonna be there in every episode and the plots will mostly come from their adventures.

Still, it could become easy for the show to appear as if it has zero faith in it's titular stars, which is why it has to dazzle you with the A-List guest stars every episode. If it was overdone, it could look like desperation. Like when "LEGION OF SUPER HEROES" decided to make Super(boy)man the focus of nearly every episode in the first season (or at least half of them) as well as doubling him up with an alternate universe clone in the second. Yeah, the other Legion members had their episodes, and the plots "mostly came from their adventures" half the time. It still came off as a Superman show, guest starring this other future team. At the very least, "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" was at least up front and honest over who was the star, and who were secondary obligations.

The 2006 FANTASTIC FOUR cartoon within 26 episodes had 6 episodes that guest starred another hero (since I am counting two Namor episodes). Heck, one episode had a "get around the legalities" extended cameo by Peter Parker, if I wanted to claim a 7th episode. That averaged one out of every 5, but in reality they were mostly condensed to the last 13-14 episodes. Which meant out of a block of about 13 episodes, one out of every two guest starred another hero. The writers intended to make the Four feel more "in the Marvel Universe". Many viewers saw it as desperation and used it as one more reason to avoid the show (others being the overuse and irrelevance of it's Dr. Doom; Cartoon Network airing episodes out of order; and the fact that the show was far better at comedy than it was at genuine superhero fare, which was a MAJOR no-no right after the end of JLU). Shows that rely on an endless parade of guest stars are often seen in negative ways, and those are shows with characters who are KNOWN commodities, like the Fantastic Four. The 1990's INCREDIBLE HULK cartoon was even more notorious for guest episodes; from 1996-1997, within 21 episodes, that show had 5 guest star episodes (and that isn't counting She-Hulk, who later became a regular in the second, abysmally terrible season). That averages one guest star every 4 episodes. Did it help the Hulk? I don't think so. But, again, the Hulk could withstand that; even in 1996, he was a household name.

NO ONE ON EARTH WHO DOESN'T READ COMICS HAS HEARD OF THE POWER PACK. Not a single, solitary non-reading comic book soul. Not a one. Therefore, immediately even tempting the idea of having them be second class citizens in their own show to Iron Man, Thor, Captain America or Hulk seems like an idea that may get the show a pilot and a first season, but won't work for the long term health of the show. Not to say that no guest stars on POWER PACK would be my policy. But I wouldn't rely on them as much as BRAVE AND THE BOLD. The Pack would be lost to them, and that's no good for long term appeal or merchandising, since Iron Man and Thor and whoever already are on everything from candy bars to condoms.

I would say that at the very least, the first 6 episodes should not feature guests, and that the rest of the next 20 episodes of the debut season don't spam them at a rate that is worse than 1 out of every 3 episodes if they don't want to make the Pack seem like afterthoughts in their own show. A gutsier ploy would be to not rely on any, not even young new heroes like Arana or Gravity. It might be gutsier to assume there is enough allure and potential in the central premise that episodes can work off the sibling chemistry as they face adventures great and small. I mean, swap powers for ninjitsu and spandex for shells, and they're Ninja Turtles. And lord knows THAT never caught on.

This is like the opposite of how Batman B&B works; it's pretty much a show where the guest stars exist so that even more people can tell Batman how great he is.

I would say the first 12 episodes of Season 2 haven't been as bad about that. In fact out of the 12, Batman himself seems to be the central focus in about 3 of them. For the rest, the focus is more on the guest hero, especially perennial guest heroes like Blue Beetle or Aquaman or Plastic Man. Even Black Canary and Green Arrow got moments to shine. True, many episodes of BM:B&TB sought to continue the myth of Batman being the master of all; but that's a myth that was absurd long before the show started, and will continue long after. The Loeb/Turner story in which Batman slapped on spikey armor and punched out Darkseid will be a Bruce Timm produced animated DTV, and at least BRAVE AND THE BOLD rarely asks to be taken seriously, and has a tongue firmly planted in cheek. You're SUPPOSED to laugh at the absurdity of Batman's car turning into a mecha so he can box dinosaurs, or whatever. Hell, in "GORILLAS IN THE MIST", Batman played second or third fiddle to B'wanna Beast and Detective Chimp.

But, I may be a minority here. BRAVE AND THE BOLD is a stupid show, but it's a guilty pleasure of mine. It's fun, at times in a silly way, while being more serious than some give it credit for at times, and less pretentious than a lot of superhero cartoons. Yes, it is just SUPERFRIENDS with a better budget and storyboard work at times...but after 12 years of Batman humorlessly brooding in corners in animation, I don't mind an occasional mix up. At least for a little while. DC can sell two versions of Batman, and does.

Well, Paramount doesn't own the rights, their deal is just to use them as a distributor. Marvel still owns the rights and can do with them what they like. If they were smart, they'd use the movie to set up a tv show, because it's going to be a pain to keep those kids looking close to the same age in between movies if they try a film franchise.

Disney wants to masters of their Marvel licenses. Paramount being involved is a non-starter for a RUNAWAYS show on one of their networks. Look at how Disney sought to kill off WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN and SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN because they were not negociated with them. ARMORED ADVENTURES is only safe due to Iron Man's popularity, and even that may not help it last beyond a season two. No show of Marvel's has lasted beyond a second season in seven years.

 

[kguillou]

Why did Wolverine and the X-men get cancelled anyway? I more or less understand SSM's situation, but i thought WATXM was doing just fine. Was that a licensing thing too?

 

[kguillou]

Why did Wolverine and the X-men get cancelled anyway? I more or less understand SSM's situation, but i thought WATXM was doing just fine. Was that a licensing thing too?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I believe that too. By corporate standards, it was a brilliant coup, and likely something expected of Disney, who despite the Mickey Mouse ears is just as much of a ruthless giant as any other. As a fan, it deeply and utterly blew. While I don't go as way back as you do (it is only due to syndication that I even have any memories of SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS as a toddler; by the time it's third and final season aired, I was about 2-3 years old).

Ouch! Make me feel ancient! I was in high school (possibly even in college) when that show first aired!

Which could still be fun; I actually am not opposed to a MARVEL TEAM UP answer to BRAVE AND THE BOLD. It just isn't TSSM. Hell, TSSM was better than USM the comic could ever hope to be, albeit with 6-7 years of hindsight, which included a movie franchise.

After watching Brave and the Bold, yeah I think a Marvel Team-Up starring Spidey can be fun. Heck, my very first Spider-Man comic I ever got was a Marvel Team-Up with Thor. I enjoyed the title through the 70's.

My problem with this new series is A) I don't want an Ultimate universe instead of 616 and B) I don't want it at the expense of Spectacular.

In a perfect world, we would get Spectacular Spider-Man AND a Brave-and-the-Bold-like Marvel Team-Up (in the 616 Universe).

The best would be to have all the Marvel cartoons to be in the same canon/universe, crossing over and occasional mini-series like Secret Wars or Civil War. And of course, bestest t: would be all these shows in canon with Spectacular!

 

[Dread]

Why did Wolverine and the X-men get cancelled anyway? I more or less understand SSM's situation, but i thought WATXM was doing just fine. Was that a licensing thing too?

The official story that producer Josh Fine stated was that the show "couldn't secure financing". He made it sound as if all it takes to finance a show is to submit paperwork through a slot at the right day and time, otherwise you miss the application deadline. Which is a story that is only believable if one is a complete moron. The reality is the story editor of the show, Craig Kyle, was being promoted to films; that alone would have been a major void to fill. In fact, 8 episodes of Season 2 had supposedly already been scripted by the time this happened. Furthermore, this was also news that came in a few months after the ink between the Disney/Marvel merger became finalized at the start of 2010. Fine was still promoting Season 2 of W&TXM while "PLANET HULK" was being sold; barely two months later, word came down that the show was dead. Unless Fine decided (or was told) to waste the time of himself and comic journalists such as Comics Continuum or Newsarama for about 60 days, the order to yank W&TXM likely came suddenly, and from up top.

The Jeph Loeb news if anything seems to display Disney's desire to see Marvel branch out on TV. That seems to imply that Marvel TV is one area where Disney actually is throwing their weight around. And some could argue, why not? They own several networks (both broadcast and cable), and have launched many TV shows into juggernaut franchises for years in both animation (DUCKTALES) and live action (HANNAH MONTANNA). Disney perhaps sees Marvel TV as one area where Marvel is not focused or as successful as Disney has been, and since Disney did invest about 4 billion greebacks, they may as well show some influence.

IRON MAN: ARMORED ADVENTURES and MARVEL SUPER HERO SQUAD likely were saved because Iron Man and Avengers themed shows are where Marvel/Disney are heading in film, and the rights are not owned by another studio. TSSM was linked to Sony, and W&TXM may have been linked to another company; Fox owns the movie rights, and Lion's Gate released the DVD's (and also still own the rights to the Punisher). W&TXM, I believe, died because Disney thought that despite it being a success, it wasn't promoting a movie that Marvel Studios was doing, nor was it a show where Disney controlled every aspect. TSSM was a great show, but it's ratings were mediocre for Disney XD overall. W&TXM was a ratings hit for NickToons, but success didn't matter; Disney was willing to kill it anyway, because they didn't fully control it and perhaps feared it, by accident, would promote a future Fox film.

Ouch! Make me feel ancient! I was in high school (possibly even in college) when that show first aired!

After watching Brave and the Bold, yeah I think a Marvel Team-Up starring Spidey can be fun. Heck, my very first Spider-Man comic I ever got was a Marvel Team-Up with Thor. I enjoyed the title through the 70's.

My problem with this new series is A) I don't want an Ultimate universe instead of 616 and B) I don't want it at the expense of Spectacular.

In a perfect world, we would get Spectacular Spider-Man AND a Brave-and-the-Bold-like Marvel Team-Up (in the 616 Universe).

The best would be to have all the Marvel cartoons to be in the same canon/universe, crossing over and occasional mini-series like Secret Wars or Civil War. And of course, bestest t: would be all these shows in canon with Spectacular!

Sorry about the time warp. I do agree I would have liked both cartoons to have existed. Warner Brothers at least these days feel that they can have a dark, brooding, serious Batman appear in a few incarnations in direct to video fare but have him be fluffy in "BRAVE AND THE BOLD" without the whole of reality coming to an end. Marvel, meanwhile, was trying to insist that "HULK VS. WOLVERINE" was in continuity with WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN even when the episodes themselves of that TV show made such a feat impossible. The fact of the matter is with DC animation, they can rely on talent that have been working with the universe for over a decade. Marvel Animation has no one with that pedigree, no one who has been involved since 1992 or even 2000 who is given full control of the mast and allowed to run it all. Some could argue one of the people who was around Marvel animation that long was Craig Kyle...who is now on the set of "THOR", writing for film.

Perhaps Loeb will try to fix that by finding some talent with a vision and keeping them on many products. Assuming, of course, that said talent wouldn't instantly be promoted.

Or you could see it the other way and go, "My god, DC, why is Bruce Timm STILL on animation when you could have him run your whole movie division so you wouldn't spit out one 'JONAH HEX' for every 'THE DARK KNIGHT'," but I wouldn't. I actually like animation, which we in America still usually dismiss as children's fodder. Despite how mature or violent any Marvel or DC DTV is, it STILL has to be under 85 minutes because that is what corporate sees as the attention span of a child, even though children are not being targeted for many of the DTV's.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If Craig Kyle was the best Marvel Animation had going for them, they're in much worse shape than I realized.

 

[Dread]

If Craig Kyle was the best Marvel Animation had going for them, they're in much worse shape than I realized.

As I was saying, he and Chris Yost had been the writers involved with Marvel animation since X-Men Evolution in 2001-2002 or so, and so they were the longest serving writers of the Joe Quesada era. Josh Fine had been around a while as well and usually did production work.

Hey, man, Marvel let Greg Wiesman get away.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Hey, man, Marvel let Greg Wiesman get away.

Have I mentioned how stupid that was?

If he had stayed on, not sure of his knowledge on the rest of the Marvel Universe, but if it is anything like his knowledge & respect for Spider-Man, Marvel would be pumping out Grade-A cartoons!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

As I was saying, he and Chris Yost had been the writers involved with Marvel animation since X-Men Evolution in 2001-2002 or so, and so they were the longest serving writers of the Joe Quesada era. Josh Fine had been around a while as well and usually did production work.

Hey, man, Marvel let Greg Wiesman get away.

What's Weisman doing now, anyway?

 

[Sawyer]

What's Weisman doing now, anyway?

Young Justice. I think he's written a few episodes of Brave and the Bold too.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, cool. I was already looking forward to Young Justice.

 

[Dread]

Yeah, Greg Wiesman is the story editor on "YOUNG JUSTICE". Technically, the end of TSSM was probably the third time he'd basically been kicked off a show due to Disney. Disney hired, then fired him from, both "GARGOYLES" and "W.I.T.C.H.", and their buy-out of Marvel naturally made a third season of TSSM next to impossible to do, especially when Disney outbid everyone to have the show on their network, just to kill it (while profiting from it's death throws, via ratings). YJ has been in production since last Fall.

Have I mentioned how stupid that was?

If he had stayed on, not sure of his knowledge on the rest of the Marvel Universe, but if it is anything like his knowledge & respect for Spider-Man, Marvel would be pumping out Grade-A cartoons!

Definitely. I imagine he could have made the X-Men show of our dreams, if not any other franchise, really. But after so many burns from Disney, I'm not surprised or even angry that he decided to have Warner Brothers cut him some checks for a change. Maybe they'll treat him better.

WB Animation does tend to be loyal. I mean, Dwayne McDuffie was axed from JLA, but didn't lose as much sleep as he could have because he's still getting work to write for DCU animated DTV's or episodes of shows.

That's a problem Jeph Loeb has to fix. Marvel TV, whether animation or live action, needs to find writers with vision, and they need to stick with them. It's a task alone to find some, but perhaps a bigger one to have patience if, say, there is a learning curve. I mean, as great as BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES was overall, there were still some stinker episodes. As much as everyone lauds JUSTICE LEAGUE/UNLIMITED, both incarnations of the show needed time, about a season, to really plant their feet in well.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Actually, some of my favorite episodes from JLU are from the first season. "For the Man who Has Everything," "The Greatest Story Never Told," etc. Granted, later seasons had better overall plots, but the first season of JLU wasn't exactly trash or anything. JL, on the other hand...

 

[Sawyer]

Actually, some of my favorite episodes from JLU are from the first season. "For the Man who Has Everything," "The Greatest Story Never Told," etc. Granted, later seasons had better overall plots, but the first season of JLU wasn't exactly trash or anything. JL, on the other hand...

 

[Doc Ock]

Jeph Loeb FTW.

 

[Wesley Dodds]

Marvel TV is a great idea. This is the perfect oppurtunity to showcase Marvels lower profile characters, the ones who are great but are clearly never going to get a movie franchise.
Characters like:

Slapstick.
Moon Knight.
Sleepwalker.
Nova.
She-Hulk.

All of these characters could have great TV series...