JLA vs avengers

BrianWilly said:
Did you even read this "horrible, character-destroying run?" The Ion from that era was more powerful than he is right now. And when I say "more powerful," what I actually mean is "He could restart the universe by thinking about it." And I'm not exaggerating even a tiny bit. The first form of Ion, from Judd Winick's arc, was about one fraction of a degree away from omnipotent and omniscient. The Silver Surfer, or anyone that hasn't at least held the power of God in their hands, stands no change against him.

Actually, I did read said run because I am a fan of the Kyle Rayner GL. The reason I called it "character-destroying" is because it pushed him too far past the core of his character and made him someone else. Judd Winick seemed to be pushing his own agenda throw Kyle instead of actually writing Rayner "in character." It wasn't Kyle's words really, it was just Judd speaking through him.
 
BrianWilly said:
Actually, Captain Marvel is even more liable to lose against Thor than Superman is. Events sort of contradict each other on this, but basically all Thor needs to do is to hit Cap with a decent bolt of lightning and he'd turn back into Billy. Yes, Captain Marvel moves much faster than lightning, but it's still a major liability; considering that Thor is a thunder god first and foremost, it's fair bet that it's going to factor heavily in the fight.

Ummm... That's not the way it works. Not any stray lightning bolt transforms him. It's a very specific Magic lightning bolt created by the wizard Shazam. Thor's lighting is not only not magic in nature, nor even if it were would it be the right spell to trigger the transformation.
 
torkibe said:
Ummm... That's not the way it works. Not any stray lightning bolt transforms him. It's a very specific Magic lightning bolt created by the wizard Shazam. Thor's lighting is not only not magic in nature, nor even if it were would it be the right spell to trigger the transformation.

I hate to say it, but seeing as how this is my ONLY time bringing it up, if Thor were to hit Cap with the "Godblast", it would be lights out for Billy and anyone else in the path.
 
The_Mystery said:
I hate to say it, but seeing as how this is my ONLY time bringing it up, if Thor were to hit Cap with the "Godblast", it would be lights out for Billy and anyone else in the path.

Maybe (and I do say maybe because we don't know how CM's resistance to magic will function in that situation) but it wouldn't trigger the transformation.
 
The_Mystery said:
I know, but it would take him out of the fight though.
The guy who was getting "blasted" with Magic to fuel him to fight the spectre?



Ok.
 
Varient said:
The guy who was getting "blasted" with Magic to fuel him to fight the spectre?



Ok.


Touche'. But didn't Marvel lose that fight? By the way, Captain Marvel gets hit with magic energy all the time and it does hurt him sometimes.
 
Like I said, that's why I don't read DC books. And they did look to him (more or less) for leadership in that book. it's common knowledge that cap is as far superior a leader as superman is as a fighter. No ones questioning that he can betat cap in a fight, even though I don't like superman, he is still WAY better in that regard. But listen to yourself, this isn't a fight. It would be a War! And war's are won by leadership and following orders, not by people running in and just laying the place to waste. that's what cap probably expexts them to do.
 
ibsisomis said:
Like I said, that's why I don't read DC books. And they did look to him (more or less) for leadership in that book. it's common knowledge that cap is as far superior a leader as superman is as a fighter. No ones questioning that he can betat cap in a fight, even though I don't like superman, he is still WAY better in that regard. But listen to yourself, this isn't a fight. It would be a War! And war's are won by leadership and following orders, not by people running in and just laying the place to waste. that's what cap probably expexts them to do.

You know...you proved my point by pointing out what an Avengers vs JLA fight would be: A WAR. That's terrain that Superman is uneasy in. Now if we are talking about Wonder Woman okay, but Supes, like I said is more of an ideal, and Icon for the JLA to rally behind. Captain America has been to War. Captain America has led troops to War. Captain America knows what to do and what it takes to win a War. Yes, Superman can beat Captain America in a one on one confrontation, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking to of the Greatest fighting forces in both universes going at it. The battle would probably take about a state or two, but in the end, under the leadership of Captain America, the only combatants standing would be Avengers. Superman tends to defer to Bats, Diana or J'onn to often. In a throwdown with the Avengers, he wouldn't have much time to do that. Cap doesn't really need to defer to anybody when it comes to strategy, but even if he did, he's got one the smartest men in either universe in Tony Stark and on the other hand he's got a God who has been fighting battles and wars for most of his immortal life and has intimate knowledge in the artform of War. In a fight between such evenly powered forces, it will inevitably(sp) come down to who has the been leader and strategy. Sorry, but Cap is known for being the best leader.
 
The_Mystery said:
Touche'. But didn't Marvel lose that fight? By the way, Captain Marvel gets hit with magic energy all the time and it does hurt him sometimes.
(Raised Eyebrow)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Spectre will and can beat ANYONE.

So yes OF COURSE Captain Marvel lost that fight.

SPECTRE = literally the "Spirit of Vengenace" in the DC Universe.

NO ONE was able to do more THAN SLOW HIM DOWN,.... GodBlast Would just clean his cape,....

Be thankful that no one is putting the Hal Jordan Spectre into the mix.
 
Varient said:
(Raised Eyebrow)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Spectre will and can beat ANYONE.

So yes OF COURSE Captain Marvel lost that fight.

SPECTRE = literally the "Spirit of Vengenace" in the DC Universe.

NO ONE was able to do more THAN SLOW HIM DOWN,.... GodBlast Would just clean his cape,....

Be thankful that no one is putting the Hal Jordan Spectre into the mix.

Well, if the Spirit of Vengence can beat Capt. Marvel, then the Norse God of Thunder should have a chance.
 
The_Mystery said:
Well, if the Spirit of Vengence can beat Capt. Marvel, then the Norse God of Thunder should have a chance.
(Smile)

I don't think you get it.

Thor would have his hammer TAKEN FROM HIM by the Spectre,.. and if he deemed it worth the time he would BEAT THOR with it.

Being Beat by the Spectre is literally like being beat BY GOD, (not little "g" = Thor,.. but big "G" = the guy who the guys that ran ragnarok achknowledge as being greater than they.)

Your arguement at this point is: If a tiger can eat a mountain lion,... that means a feral tabby has a chance.

Nope.

Marvel was THE ONLY ONE with the Jets to hold the Spectre off.

I think you guys underrate him the same way you underate WW,...

Bad mistake.
 
The_Mystery said:
Actually, I did read said run because I am a fan of the Kyle Rayner GL. The reason I called it "character-destroying" is because it pushed him too far past the core of his character and made him someone else. Judd Winick seemed to be pushing his own agenda throw Kyle instead of actually writing Rayner "in character." It wasn't Kyle's words really, it was just Judd speaking through him.
Which has absolutely nothing at all to do with the stated power level of Ion as shown in canon. That story may be -- in your opinion -- the absolutely worst piece of trash anyone has ever written, and it would still be in-continuity. Just because you don't personally like it doesn't all of a sudden make the power of Ion somehow less than it was shown to be, which is clearly above the capacity of the Silver Surfer.

I'd like to know which storylines exactly Winick wrote which you think were so character-destroying and pushed his own agenda ahead of Kyle's characterization, 'cause off the top of my head I can't think of a one.
torkibe said:
Ummm... That's not the way it works. Not any stray lightning bolt transforms him. It's a very specific Magic lightning bolt created by the wizard Shazam. Thor's lighting is not only not magic in nature, nor even if it were would it be the right spell to trigger the transformation.
Which is why I said that "events sort of contradict each other on this." In the Power of Shazam series by Ordway, Captain Marvel Junior was turned back to Freddy Freeman by lightning from a non-magical villain. In the OMAC Project, the OMACs were able to turn Mary Marvel back to her regular self with regular lightning. And I heard of one instance -- heard, not seen -- where Captain Marvel himself got turned back to Billy by some electric eels.
 
Varient said:
The guy who was getting "blasted" with Magic to fuel him to fight the spectre?



Ok.

Well, magic has to be properly channelled into him, not just directed at him.
 
BrianWilly said:
Which has absolutely nothing at all to do with the stated power level of Ion as shown in canon. That story may be -- in your opinion -- the absolutely worst piece of trash anyone has ever written, and it would still be in-continuity. Just because you don't personally like it doesn't all of a sudden make the power of Ion somehow less than it was shown to be, which is clearly above the capacity of the Silver Surfer.

I'd like to know which storylines exactly Winick wrote which you think were so character-destroying and pushed his own agenda ahead of Kyle's characterization, 'cause off the top of my head I can't think of a one.
Which is why I said that "events sort of contradict each other on this." In the Power of Shazam series by Ordway, Captain Marvel Junior was turned back to Freddy Freeman by lightning from a non-magical villain. In the OMAC Project, the OMACs were able to turn Mary Marvel back to her regular self with regular lightning. And I heard of one instance -- heard, not seen -- where Captain Marvel himself got turned back to Billy by some electric eels.

Correction. They did it through "Transmutative Lightning."
 
I thought that was just a fancy way of saying "This lightning will change you back"; the OMACs were prone to some pretty pretentious dialogue.

But even if it was a special type of lightning, it's still non-magical and definitely not from the Wizard Shazam. Which opens up a lot of wiggle room for anyone who wants to use that tactic.
 
Yeah, agreed. I totally can believe a non sentient robot could pull off magical feats like nothing that several sorcerers spend centuries trying to do. I call it bad writing. Kind of like how a tape recording of "Captain Marvel" changed CM2 back and forth. Because if that were true, the few people who were studying Billy, who definitely would have that recorded, would have Billy just throttling back and forth as they were studying him.
 
ibsisomis said:
And that's exactly what this would be a WAR!

Superman doesn't understand war, nor how to effectively win one. Cap does. I'll say it again, Superman isn't a leader, he's an icon, an inspiration. A force for his team to rally behind. He doesn't give orders, he looks to his left or right at Bruce or Diana and they give him their best strategy. Cap's more effective in the not only is he an icon and inspiration, but he gives the orders and barks the commands. He only looks to his 2nd-in-commands like Tony, Hawkeye, Thor and Scarlet Witch when necessary.
 
The Mystery said:
Superman doesn't understand war, nor how to effectively win one.


You sir, need to read more Superman, because you don't know what you're talking about. Superman fought alongside Wonder Woman helping the Asgardians fend off an invasion for 1000 years. Even after Thor died, he took up Thor's hammer and lead the Asgardian armies to victory, the whole time never taking a single life.
 
Anubis said:
You sir, need to read more Superman, because you don't know what you're talking about. Superman fought alongside Wonder Woman helping the Asgardians fend off an invasion for 1000 years. Even after Thor died, he took up Thor's hammer and lead the Asgardian armies to victory, the whole time never taking a single life.

Yes everyone, okay, I read that issue too. Hell, I bought it the first day it came out. Now tell me where you saw him giving orders. It was a nice story, but it doesn't prove your point. Hell, it's never even mentioned nowadays. Cap's WWII tenure is legendary.
 
I'm just saying, you say he doesn't understand war, when the truth is, he does, and manages to go against it anyway.
 

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