JLA vs avengers

[Ultra-Herald9]

Let me help some people out there who seem to be having a problem with the whole "Superman vulnerable to magic" deal. It is DC CANON that Superman is vulnerable to magic. For those of you who don't know what "vulnerable" means, it means that magic can hurt him. It doesn't matter if it's a magic knife, bow and arrow, bullet or playing card, the object can pierce his skin just as a regular knife, bullet, etc...can pierce a regular humans skin. If you don't believe me look to the countless books and cartoons that show Superman getting cut with a magic card, or slashed by demon claws or cut by enchanted weapons. I know it's hard to believe, but it's true. Now in regards to Thor's hammer. It's called an "enchanted Uru war hammer" for a reason. It's a magical object. Meaning that if Thor hits Superman, who is VULNERABLE to magic with a magic hammer, then Superman will be hurt then same way that me or you would be injured if we were hit with a normal war hammer i.e. during the JLA/Avengers mini series, when Superman caught Mjolnir in his bare hands when Thor swung it at him, it should have damn near shattered all the bones in Superman's hand. That my friends was a continuity mistake.

Geez you are starting to become an annoying fanboy! Listen Supes invunerability works against even enchanted weapons although he can be wounded by them more easily. If it replicates a naturally occuring force such as blows from a hammer it doesn't matter if the hammer is enchated it will just be treated like a powerful hammer. Thats why he blocked Thors strike! This has been adressed in recent continuity so stop hiding behind your "Superman has been cut by a playing card" and show me some scans taht are recent.

What Superman is vunerable against is stuff like pure mystical blasts and spells but even then he is just as vunerable to it as everyone else! Don't you think that If Supes was as weak as you think he is he would never had defeated Etrigan and etc.(Supes might be cut by playing cards but he easily seemed to shrug of Etrigans magic hell fire! Which by your logic would have burnt Supes to a skeleton) and like I said SUPES BEAT A NORSE GOD ONCE(and that guy happened to have a magical AXE!)!!!

Heck Supes has even taken a direct hit from the purple ray of death and only got knocked out.


But I stray from my point....Supes won't fight Thor, Captain Marvel will and using logic(instead of hiding behind the FAN VOTED Dc vs. Marvel crap which has pretty much been mutually been agreed on all sides as being completely unmentionable as a reference in debates) Captain Marvel has huge advantages over Thor. He is as strong as Supes in pretty much every area but not only is Cap M not vunerable to magic but he is STRONG AGAINST IT!) while Thor is a god Captain M draws his powers from gods that are THE BEST in their particular area.

Most of the Gods he draws From are higher than Thor on the Pantheon Chain anyway like ah......ZEUS!!!! Who is equal to Thors father!


And you still haven't adressed why you keep having to pull reserve members of the Avengers to prove your point cause if thats how you wanna play then we can do it that way if you wish! Just remember that practically every Hero has been on some JLA afilliated team.

 

[The_Mystery]

I heard they won't be calling him Flash, he'll be "Impulse."

 

[Brainiac 8]

Yea, he is going to be called Impulse because the Flash name is held up in movie rights and DC won't let them use it.

 

[The_Mystery]

Geez you are starting to become an annoying fanboy! Dude, relax, I'm just having a friendly discussion. In the end it's just comics, folks. Listen Supes invunerability works against even enchanted weapons although he can be wounded by them more easily. So, by using your logic, he can be hurt by enchanted weapons, even bleed by them (if you don't believe me, Superman was throat was slashed by Wonder Woman's friggin' tiara during the fight where she killed Max Lord), then why is it so hard to believe that Thor's enchanted hammer would have broken Superman's hand on contact. Especially considering the strength of the blow. If it replicates a naturally occuring force such as blows from a hammer it doesn't matter if the hammer is enchated it will just be treated like a powerful hammer. Thats why he blocked Thors strike! This has been adressed in recent continuity so stop hiding behind your "Superman has been cut by a playing card" and show me some scans taht are recent. I don't have scans but I can tell you what comic it's in if you really want to know. It's in a Superman Secret files issue where Supes fights the newly formed Suicide Squad who are trying to kill Amanda Waller. During the fight, Doubledown throws his "magic skin cards" at Supes and the cut him, he bleeds and they hurt. This issue was actually the last Superman secret files they did. Look it up and prove me wrong.

What Superman is vunerable against is stuff like pure mystical blasts and spells but even then he is just as vunerable to it as everyone else! I didn't say he was MORE vulnerable. You don't seem to read well. Don't you think that If Supes was as weak as you think he is he would never had defeated Etrigan and etc.(Supes might be cut by playing cards but he easily seemed to shrug of Etrigans magic hell fire! Which by your logic would have burnt Supes to a skeleton) Exactly, it's called bad writing and continuity mistakes. and like I said SUPES BEAT A NORSE GOD ONCE(and that guy happened to have a magical AXE!)!!!Bravo Supes, I never said he didn't have a chance against Thor. Just said that Thor has more experience in battle than Supes and already wields one of his vulnerabilities. Superman when you break it down is a farmboy who has a lot of power. Thor is a immortal God with alot of power. Mind you, Thor has beaten Gods as well.

Heck Supes has even taken a direct hit from the purple ray of death and only got knocked out. Okay, it's called bad writing and inconsistancy.


But I stray from my point....Supes won't fight Thor, Captain Marvel will and using logic(instead of hiding behind the FAN VOTED Dc vs. Marvel crap which has pretty much been mutually been agreed on all sides as being completely unmentionable as a reference in debates) Captain Marvel has huge advantages over Thor. He is as strong as Supes in pretty much every area but not only is Cap M not vunerable to magic but he is STRONG AGAINST IT!) while Thor is a god Captain M draws his powers from gods that are THE BEST in their particular area. Why are you so sure that Thor would fight Captain Marvel? Even still, Thor has more experience that Cap, who when you break it down is a boy in a man's body.

Most of the Gods he draws From are higher than Thor on the Pantheon Chain anyway like ah......ZEUS!!!! Who is equal to Thors father! Gotcha, but you're wrong. Odin is Thor's pappy, not Zeus.


And you still haven't adressed why you keep having to pull reserve members of the Avengers to prove your point cause if thats how you wanna play then we can do it that way if you wish! Just remember that practically every Hero has been on some JLA afilliated team. Fine, I'll just use the rosters from the JLA/Avengers meeting. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, J'onn J'onn, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman vs. Captain America, Iron Man, Vision, Thor, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Quicksilver. Even that match up, in my opinion, goes to the JLA. It all comes down to leadership. The Avengers have a better leader/tactical specialist than the JLA.

Easy man, let's keep it friendly.

 

[Vanguard07]

By percentages i'd say the Avengers would take it but as some people already pointed out, the JLA has that tendency to let everybody join.

The entirety of the Avengers (past members, reserve members etc) consists of maybe 50 characters at most In fact in that Morgan Lefay storyline where they called in every single member a while back (what like 5 years ago?) there was something like 38 of them. The entirety of the JLA is probably well over a hundred.

Taking numbers into account, who would beat who in a 1 on 1 is irrelevant. It'd never happen. Every member of the Avengers would be up against 4 or 5 members of the JLA. Given how outnumbered they would be, of course the Avengers would lose.

 

[The_Mystery]

By percentages i'd say the Avengers would take it but as some people already pointed out, the JLA has that tendency to let everybody join.

The entirety of the Avengers (past members, reserve members etc) consists of maybe 50 characters at most In fact in that Morgan Lefay storyline where they called in every single member a while back (what like 5 years ago?) there was something like 38 of them. The entirety of the JLA is probably well over a hundred.

Taking numbers into account, who would beat who in a 1 on 1 is irrelevant. It'd never happen. Every member of the Avengers would be up against 4 or 5 members of the JLA. Given how outnumbered they would be, of course the Avengers would lose.

See, now this is logic I can understand. That's makes alot of sense and I would agree with you in that the JLA does have like a million members. I will say this, just because the army is "bigger" doesn't mean their better or more likely to succeed. The JLA does have more members, but alot of them aren't exactly A-List or even D-List character. Also, the Avengers could always call in some help. But yes, the JLA does outnumber the Avengers like 2 to 1 or something.

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

Easy man, let's keep it friendly.

My bad dude.t:

I'll definately adress you with more respect.

What can I say..... its my curse(fanboyism).

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

BTW I know that Odin is Thor's father. I was saying that one of the dudes CM gets his power from is equal to Odin. Since apparently Zeus and Odin have encountered each other multiple times.

 

[The_Mystery]

My bad dude.t:

I'll definately adress you with more respect.

What can I say..... its my curse(fanboyism).

I know, it gets the best of even the strongest of us

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

And Supes isn't just a farmboy with alot of power. Superman has been established as one of DC's Cosmics. So its really an Immortal God versus a Cosmic being.


And Supes isn't as inexperienced as you would think as a fighter. I'm suprised no one has mentioned that he and Wonder Woman fought together for 1000 years in Ragnarok.

 

[Vanguard07]

BTW I know that Odin is Thor's father. I was saying that one of the dudes CM gets his power from is equal to Odin. Since apparently Zeus and Odin have encountered each other multiple times.

You cant really make that claim though. Marvel's Zeus and Marvel's Odin have never encountered DC's Zeus and DC's Odin.
They could easilly be vastly different in terms of power level.

 

[The_Mystery]

And Supes isn't just a farmboy with alot of power. Superman has been established as one of DC's Cosmics. So its really an Immortal God versus a Cosmic being.


And Supes isn't as inexperienced as you would think as a fighter. I'm suprised no one has mentioned that he and Wonder Woman fought together for 1000 years in Ragnarok.

Y'know, I have that issue and it never made any real sense to me. Even now.

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

You cant really make that claim though. Marvel's Zeus and Marvel's Odin have never encountered DC's Zeus and DC's Odin.
They could easilly be vastly different in terms of power level.

Actually it could be said that DC's Zeus is more powerful. Not out of disrespect but more in terms of how the characters are represented in comics.

While Marvel Zeus has the command of vast magics and cosmic energy DC's Zeus is a part of the quintessence(not sure if its canon anymore) along with Phantom Stranger, High Father, Ganthet,Spectre, and himself of course. All these beings are nearly Omnipotent and regard eachother as equals.

 

[supermarvelman]

See, now this is logic I can understand. That's makes alot of sense and I would agree with you in that the JLA does have like a million members. I will say this, just because the army is "bigger" doesn't mean their better or more likely to succeed. The JLA does have more members, but alot of them aren't exactly A-List or even D-List character. Also, the Avengers could always call in some help. But yes, the JLA does outnumber the Avengers like 2 to 1 or something.

Though the JLA have many B-D listers, they still have had like every A-lister join the JLA at one tim eor another. I've already said it's more fair to do JLA or the DCu vs the Marvel Universe.

 

[The_Mystery]

I agree. DC vs Marvel would be a hellava lot cooler and more fun. That would make such a great mini-series, especially if they let there be a winner. Personally, I'm rooting for the side with Cap, Thor, Wolverine, Sentry, Silver Surfer, etc.. (I know, big surprise )

 

[Kitsune]

Actually it could be said that DC's Zeus is more powerful. Not out of disrespect but more in terms of how the characters are represented in comics.

While Marvel Zeus has the command of vast magics and cosmic energy DC's Zeus is a part of the quintessence(not sure if its canon anymore) along with Phantom Stranger, High Father, Ganthet,Spectre, and himself of course. All these beings are nearly Omnipotent and regard eachother as equals.

Does DC's Zeus still like to turn into animals and have sex with mortals?

 

[Ultra-Herald9]

Does DC's Zeus still like to turn into animals and have sex with mortals?

I actaully think he prefers turning and to food items now.....but the sex with mortals thing...that will never change.

 

[ibsisomis]

Hey brainiac do you know when that episode airs? I gotta check it out.

 

[BrianWilly]

Actually, Captain Marvel is even more liable to lose against Thor than Superman is. Events sort of contradict each other on this, but basically all Thor needs to do is to hit Cap with a decent bolt of lightning and he'd turn back into Billy. Yes, Captain Marvel moves much faster than lightning, but it's still a major liability; considering that Thor is a thunder god first and foremost, it's fair bet that it's going to factor heavily in the fight.

Ironically enough, Superman and Cap are the only two main DC earthshakers -- and I mean that term literally -- who actually have a vulnerability that Thor can exploit. Others like Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and the Green Lanterns are actually much better equipped for him.

The idea that the DC universe doesn't have clear, effective leaders is pretty damn absurd. If the superheroes don't look to Superman to lead them, then they'll look to Batman. If they don't look to Batman, then they'll look to Wonder Woman. The idea that Superman isn't a good leader because he doesn't like leading or something is a pretty blatant exaggeration; You can't use the fractured teamwork situation of Infinite Crisis as the template for how that universe usually works; the whole point of Infinite Crisis was that the heroes had started to disagree and bicker. Key words being "started to," which means that they weren't doing so before. The fact is that, throughout the history of the JLA, the Big Three had been more than exemplary leaders who have commanded their teams to countless victories throughout as many universe-destroying disasters in the past. Who turned the tide of the battle against angels from heaven and inspired his teammates to victory merely by his presence on the field? Superman. Who led the entire population of Earth, temporarily superpowered, on an assault against Mageddon? Wonder Woman. And let's not even go into the amount of times that Batman's tactics and quick-thinking got his teammates out of every situation imaginable, and the amount of times that they deferred without hesitation to his judgment even if they don't like him personally.

BTW, are we talking about the current ION or the ION from Judd Winick's extremely horrible, character-destroying run on Green Lantern. Either way, we're talkin' about the Silver Surfer here. The same Silver Surfer that can beat Thor, the Hulk and sometimes Galactus himself. Ion is a graphic artist who has trouble with Nero. Just sayin...

Okay, and this is where your logic sort of trips on a rock and falls flat on its face.

Did you even read this "horrible, character-destroying run?" The Ion from that era was more powerful than he is right now. And when I say "more powerful," what I actually mean is "He could restart the universe by thinking about it." And I'm not exaggerating even a tiny bit. The first form of Ion, from Judd Winick's arc, was about one fraction of a degree away from omnipotent and omniscient. The Silver Surfer, or anyone that hasn't at least held the power of God in their hands, stands no change against him.

 

[ibsisomis]

See that right there is why I don't read that much DC stuff. I think it is absurd that you have a character that has "the power of a not a god but THE GOD". That's just so ridiculous it's not even funny! They create too many powers for thier characters and it's not entertaining to me at all. Hell I don't even read Silver Surfer for that fact either.
And as far as the "leadeship" thing is concerned. I didn't say (well maybe I did I forgot) that they don't have a leader. But they don't have one true leader! A guy that in the face of adversity they will look to and without question look to no one else. besides supes is NO WHERE NEAR the leader cap is. just because he has powers and could physically beat cap's booty doesn't mean he has the leadership skills that cap has. Batman's a good tactitian no doubt, one of the best and I feel he actually has better prep time tahn cap. but he isn't listened to as well as cap is to the avengers!

 

[roach]

this is ION.....
"For a brief period, Kyle achieved godhood as Ion, when he absorbed the leftover energy in the sun after Hal Jordan sacrificed his life in the Final Night limited series, energy which had merged and grown with energies released after Oblivion's defeat. With his new powers, Kyle could bend time, space, and reality. Kyle could even be in many places at once."

again how does Silver Surfer defeat him???

 

[HULKSTER'04]

If Thor used his god-blast how many from the JLA will be left standing and how many would fall dead?

 

[BrianWilly]

And as far as the "leadeship" thing is concerned. I didn't say (well maybe I did I forgot) that they don't have a leader. But they don't have one true leader! A guy that in the face of adversity they will look to and without question look to no one else. besides supes is NO WHERE NEAR the leader cap is. just because he has powers and could physically beat cap's booty doesn't mean he has the leadership skills that cap has. Batman's a good tactitian no doubt, one of the best and I feel he actually has better prep time tahn cap. but he isn't listened to as well as cap is to the avengers!

Forgetting for the moment that there is absolutely no objective, unbiased way to determine whether Captain America is a better leader than Superman (do you realize that every single thing you've said about Cap's leadership could be 100% applied to Superman as well?), in the end it's really not as important as it sounds. This isn't the invasion of Normandy, this is a bunch of people coming together and fighting. No matter how good of a leader someone is, he's not going to be able to make someone defeat his opponent if he wasn't able to defeat his opponent before.

 

[roach]

If Thor used his god-blast how many from the JLA will be left standing and how many would fall dead?

Ion and he could take out the Avengers by himself

 

[The_Mystery]

Forgetting for the moment that there is absolutely no objective, unbiased way to determine whether Captain America is a better leader than Superman (do you realize that every single thing you've said about Cap's leadership could be 100% applied to Superman as well?), in the end it's really not as important as it sounds. This isn't the invasion of Normandy, this is a bunch of people coming together and fighting. No matter how good of a leader someone is, he's not going to be able to make someone defeat his opponent if he wasn't able to defeat his opponent before.

See, this is where I think you're logic comes up short. If you look at those victories, you'll see that Superman didn't so much lead them, but he provided inspiration. His "troops" sorta just followed him into battle. There was no real strategy involved. Captain America makes plans and always thinks 3 or 4 steps ahead of the battle. When Cap leads he actually gives effective orders. He doesn't just run into battle with people behind him and hope that they know what they're doing. Superman, in my opinion, provides his team with someone to look up to and aspire to be. He doesn't call out battle strategies or bark orders. Cap does both. That's why, and I'll say it again, both Supes and Bats deferred to Cap in the JLA/Avengers book. They no who was the BETTER LEADER.