JLA vs avengers

Marvin said:
sucker punch...
normal people have been known to withstand bats to the face(albiet with alot of damage) but they're still awake.

at the same time if u get the jump on someone when there guard is down and from behind, it's a completely different story.

point in case...
how many times has superman taken captain marvels magic punches (to the face) in the past and seemingly laughed them off?
ie kingdom come!

sucker punch...


great post brian
and on the marvel boards no less

(it will be referrenced many times from this day forward)

That doesn't explain why Cap would say something like "He's vulnerble to magic" if it wasn't true. Meaing that a blunt impact from something magical(something like, oh I don't know, a magic war hammer, maybe) would be able to knock him out, sucker punch or not.

Just sayin' y'know.
 
"point in case...
how many times has superman taken captain marvels magic punches (to the face) in the past and seemingly laughed them off?
ie kingdom come!"

well if thor can find the time to sneak up on superman(of all people) and sucker punch him with the mallet
he can chalk it up to magic all he wants.

thing is it was simply a cliche plot device

two friends walking down a cavern, friend 1 fears for the safety of friend 2, friend 1 clubs friend 2 at the base of the back of the skull and catches friend two before he hits the ground...
and then goes on to say something along the lines of "i'm sorry" or "that's as far as u go" or some sh1t like that.

ofcourse if they ever got into a fist fight they could throw all the punches they want.

why did he say that?
i figure Morrison wanted to ligitimize his little scanario so as to avoid message board meltdown...

two;
becuase superman is vulnerable to magic...just not in any capacity presented here.
 
The_Mystery said:
Not much.
EVERY WIN was performed in some fashion that was not "normal" or established for the winning hero.

Please,.. A nerve pinch from Batman on someone who benches almost 20 tons? Form follows function,.. You'd need super strength or to be the celestial Madonna to pull that off,.. and the Madonna has to wrap her legs around your head to get that effect.

Please part two,.... "solar gem setting him ablaze?" The martians fear of fire is exactly that,... he has been shown proof against beam weapons,.. just because the visions heat beam is solar powered doesn't mean that it should effect Jonn,.. since he gets more heat energy from the sun just transiting to the moon under his own power.

Please part three,..." Wonderwomans bracelts suddenly gaining a new power? TSK - Nuff said.

Please part four,....Thor in desperation is going to bring down a bolt of "magical" lightning on his fight with superman? Find ANYWHERE in Canon where he called down "Magical" Lightning. It has NEVER happened for one thing,.. for another - where would THOR get the idea that Supes is in anyway vulnerable to magic?

Please Part five,... same thing, as four.


The ONLY fight in the ones done by wizard world that seemed CLOSE to type was the widow/canary fight,... and I'd said that a secret agent who used to run with the avengers for years has it over a woman who has been fighting crime for less than ten comic time.


Too bad you can't sue a company for not doing their research before staging a fight.
 
Varient said:
Not much.
EVERY WIN was performed in some fashion that was not "normal" or established for the winning hero.

Please,.. A nerve pinch from Batman on someone who benches almost 20 tons? Form follows function,.. You'd need super strength or to be the celestial Madonna to pull that off,.. and the Madonna has to wrap her legs around your head to get that effect.

Please part two,.... "solar gem setting him ablaze?" The martians fear of fire is exactly that,... he has been shown proof against beam weapons,.. just because the visions heat beam is solar powered doesn't mean that it should effect Jonn,.. since he gets more heat energy from the sun just transiting to the moon under his own power.

Please part three,..." Wonderwomans bracelts suddenly gaining a new power? TSK - Nuff said.

Please part four,....Thor in desperation is going to bring down a bolt of "magical" lightning on his fight with superman? Find ANYWHERE in Canon where he called down "Magical" Lightning. It has NEVER happened for one thing,.. for another - where would THOR get the idea that Supes is in anyway vulnerable to magic?

Please Part five,... same thing, as four.


The ONLY fight in the ones done by wizard world that seemed CLOSE to type was the widow/canary fight,... and I'd said that a secret agent who used to run with the avengers for years has it over a woman who has been fighting crime for less than ten comic time.


Too bad you can't sue a company for not doing their research before staging a fight.

Yeah. i agree with pretty much everything you said...
 
The_Mystery said:
You know there is a thread on CBR where Kurt Buisek himself gives his thoughts on the whole "magic that can hurt Superman" deal. I agree with him, but sometimes he brushes off things that he didn't write. It's interesting nonetheless. Check it out: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=42938&page=12&pp=15

Was it confirmed that it actually was kurt Busiek and not just someone who made up the name?
 
The_Mystery said:
You know there is a thread on CBR where Kurt Buisek himself gives his thoughts on the whole "magic that can hurt Superman" deal. I agree with him, but sometimes he brushes off things that he didn't write. It's interesting nonetheless. Check it out: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=42938&page=12&pp=15
I remain amazed that nerds would argue the point with one of the comic writers,.................

trip.
 
Varient said:
I remain amazed that nerds would argue the point with one of the comic writers,.................

trip.

I think it says something about the fact that these people are just people like us, they write stories and scenarios...they have opinions and ideas

loeb thinks one way(sometimes great sometimes sh1t)
Kurt thinks his way...

whenever someone brings up a reference from a book, i tend to look at it as just someones opinion...

infact put a hand full of them on a message board and present this topic and it would probubly go something like ours...

none of them are "god on high"

i guess it comes down to the creators and editors of the characters.

that being said

i used to think Kurt was an idiot
i guess(glad) i was wrong:yay:
 
Varient said:
I remain amazed that nerds would argue the point with one of the comic writers,.................

trip.


So basically, when a writer writes an actual comic book fight that some people don't like or agree with, it's bad writing, but when they give their unofficial, off the record thoughts on who would win we should all bow and agree?

Seems like some people want it both ways.
 
Horrorfan said:
So basically, when a writer writes an actual comic book fight that some people don't like or agree with, it's bad writing, but when they give their unofficial, off the record thoughts on who would win we should all bow and agree?

Seems like some people want it both ways.
?
No.
A writer gives his opinion with reasoning about it citing source and who else who writes about it belileves has much more weight than a fan who'd prefer it a certain way.

I don't think anyone here went the "bad writing route" on this topic save the folk trying to defend Marvel overhard.



If you write a fight I don't agree with and you write that title,... i got nothing to say.

You step in out of the blue and write a story that takes a character "out of character" to make a story,... ignoring powers and abilities w/o explanation,.. then you'll hear me have something to say about "bad writing".

example :
Black Widow beats Spiderman in a fight.

It happened.
I got no problem with it for three reasons:
1. Spidey had a cold - canon,.. his powers go out of whack when he catches one.
2. Widow was at the top of her form and looking for a fight.
3. She got first licks.

Now under almost any other conditions Spidey wins hands down.

But because the writers of that story DID THEIR HOMEWORK I have no reason to complain.


V.
 
BrianWilly said:
A little late on this point, but let me answer a few points a few pages back...specifically, regarding Wonder Woman's sword.

Wonder Woman's sword was forged by the smith-god Hephaestus. It was designed and enchanted specifically to be able to cut through anything, including shaving the electrons off of an atom. That's the enchantment. That's its "magic." When Hephaestus went about forging it, he specifically said, "I want this blade to be able to cut through anything. And since I'm amongst the most badass smith-gods in all mythology, if I want it to happen then it's gonna happen." Therefore, the blade is capable of slicing through anything. That's straight from the official DCU guide to Wonder Woman, out now in stores everywhere!...or something. Not arguing with you there, that makes sense.

All magical items have certain limitations just as they have certain enchantments; this is pretty simple logic. If you specifically design an object to do certain things, you can't be surprised if it can't do other things. A remote control cannot be expected to play your CDs. Hermes' sandals can make you fly fast and warp, but it can't make you breathe water. So just as there are things that Wonder Woman's sword absolutely can do, there are also many things that it absolutely can not do. Right again, not arguing there.

For example! It is not unbreakable. Many of Wonder Woman's weapons, including that sword, have been broken either by other villains or by herself. The latest example would be when she threw the sword on the ground in the last issue of Infinite Crisis, and it shattered into two. The sword can cut through anything, but it itself is not invulnerable unlike, say, Diana's bracelets or lasso. Now in terms of physics, if something were capable of cutting through anything at all without a lot of force, you'd logically assume that it might be able to withstand some pretty hefty damage, too; only diamond can cut through diamond, after all, unless you're applying a ridiculous amount of strength. But this is not physics, this is magic! And not only does magic always come with a price, it also doesn't need to follow normal physical rules.Yup, I gotcha.

Another example! Anyone can use it. The sword is not specifically bound to Diana herself, nor does it have any enchantments prohibiting certain people from using it. Anyone could pick it up and start hacking and it would perform its enchantment -- cutting through anything -- just the same.

Now I bet you're wondering what the point of all this is. Well, let's compare her sword to Mjolnir. Mjolnir also has several enchantments placed on it, far more than WW's sword, in fact. It is, after all, the mythological weapon of a god, fit for a god.

One of the more famed of the hammer's abilities is that if you throw it, it will return to the exact spot from which it was thrown. Unless, for some reason, you grip onto the handle as you throw, in which case you will fly right along with the hammer as far as you threw it. Again: magic, not physics.

It is capable of manipulating the weather. Now, this might just be a channeling of Thor's innate nature as the god of thunder, similar to how the golden lasso channel's Wonder Woman's innate nature as the spirit of truth. But Wonder Woman can't force people to tell the truth without the lasso, and Thor can't fire lightning without the hammer. So, for all intents and purposes, anyone who is deemed worthy enough to wield Mjolnir can use it to manipulate the weather.

It is capable of manipulating other magical forces, such as the godblast, and redirecting energy of all types. This further goes to show why I think Captain Marvel would be screwed against Thor, since the lightning that powers him is just another type of energy that Thor could strip away.Yes, you are right in that instance.

It allows its wielder to create interdimensional portals.

As a religious relic, it is lethal to undead.

Last but not least, it grants the wielder increased strength and durability, usually on par with general Asgardian physiology.

Did I miss anything?

Now, for things that it cannot do: It is virtually indestructible, but not literally so. It has been damaged several times throughout canon.

One of the most well-known limitations is that only the worthy -- as ascertained by Marvel universe Asgardian standards -- can pick it up and wield it. This is absolute. The Hulk wouldn't be able to pick it up. If you view both Marvel vs DC and JLA/Avengers as canon -- which I personally don't, though your mileage may vary -- Wonder Woman can pick it up whereas Superman can't, unless it were in a very specific, dire situation and Odin's enchantment specifically recognized that situation. This might be because WW's attitude is closer to the Asgardians', in that it is sometimes justifiable to kill your enemies if there is no other choice, whereas Superman thinks it is completely unjustifiable at any time. This is correlatable with another person who has picked up the hammer before, Captain America, who has also killed people in times of war, but is in most other respects a lot like Superman.

And then we come to the real point of this rant, as it pertains to the topic at hand: Mjolnir cannot destroy everything. It cannot destroy everything. This is key. Unlike Wonder Woman's sword, Mjolnir does not have an enchantment on it specifically so that it would smash through everything that it hits. Throughout the course of the comics, there have been things and beings that have withstood being hit by Thor's hammer, if only barely. That would not be true if Mjolnir was specifically enchanted to damage everything it hits.Never said it could destroy everything.

So if blows from Mjolnir are not specifically enchanted to do anything other than be blows, what does that mean? It means that being hit by Mjolnir is being hit by impact. The degree of the impact may be more severe, but pragmatically it is exactly the same as being hit by Thor's fists, or by Wonder Woman's fists, or by Captain Marvel's fists; the fists may be powered by magic, but the impact is not. Impact is a completely logical, physical, scientific phenomenon. There is nothing mystical or science-bending about it. Mjolnir glows with normal, natural, unenchanted lightning; it may glow with mystic energy at certain times, mostly for visual effect, but this energy is largely harmless and has no known offensive capability. "Glowing magic thing" is not grounds for being able to harm Superman, or anyone else for that matter. The Eye of Agamotto glows, but if you wack someone over the head with it, it's just going to feel like you wacked someone over the head with a medium-sized amulet.Well, the "Eye" isn't exactly a war hammer now.

Mjolnir hits you. It impacts you. There is absolutely no enchantment upon the hammer that says otherwise. The hammer is a magic hammer, but the impact it creates is devoid of enchantment, dependant solely on its own durability and Thor's magically-enhanced strength to deliver its physical power...again, unlike Wonder Woman's sword, whose slashes and thrusts are magically compelled to cut things. Wonder Woman could swing it or Spider-Ham could swing it, and it'd cut Superman just the same unless he got the hell out of the way. But it's stated in EVERY EXPLAINATION for Superman's powers, even the ones from DC. Superman is vulnerable to magic. It's not specific. Just magic. Meaning that it's not like kryptonite where there is "scientific" reasoning behind it's effects on Superman. It just says "Superman is vulnerable to magic" nothing more nothing less (trust me, I've been researching this online for about an hour, I know, but I'm bored at work, so sue me :yay: ). I've seen instances where demonic creatures, with no particular incantation, overpower Superman and actually cause him to bleed (I don't remember the issue number but it's an issue of Superman: Man of Tomorrow, featuring Captain Marvel.) Superman clearly is overpowered by these demon. Their enchantment is to "beat whoever they fight", they are just demons. Another instance is that vampires have bitten Superman in the past. Their teeth don't have a "bite anything" enchantment, they are just magic beings. Therefore, a magic hammer would affect Supes just like it would me or you. A hammer with any type of enchantment is gonna hurt Supes in one way or another because it's magic. I think people are confused with this whole specific enchantment thing. Find me one profile on Superman's abilities where it's stated that way. Just one. They all say one thing: Superman is vulnerable to magic. Period.

Are you all beginning to understand why people think Thor's hammer hitting Superman isn't the same thing as Wonder Woman's sword slicing him, or Captain Marvel's lightning zapping him? Wonder Woman's sword is enchanted to slice people. The lightning of Shazam is raw mystic energy that zaps people exactly like lightning does, but with raw mystic energy. Thor's hammer is impact, albeit impact from strength and durability that is augmented by magic. And if impact from magically augmented strength was all it took to harm Superman, he should have bloody gaping holes in his body every time Wonder Woman even remotely attacks him. Which is more often than you'd think. Shazam's lighting doesn't have an enchantment that makes it devastating to anyone struck with it, the enchantment is to turn Billy into Capt. Marvel. Therefore further backing up what I said earlier: It doesn't matter what enchantment.

That is not assurance that Superman will win Thor; they are still closely-matched enough in strength that there's never quite any assurance one way or the other, and there is still the god-blast of course, and there are probably other things that Thor as a god could do which I'm forgetting at the moment that could mystically affect Superman. But unless you can come up with any instances of Mjolnir itself being able to affect things on an offensive mystical level, "Thor hitting Superman with his magic hammer" is not nearly grounds enough to call for his victory. And I might be wrong; there might indeed be instances such as this. But none that I'm aware of.Where it would be getting hit with the hammer or struck by lighting "created" by the hammer(and for those who don't believe, common sense should tell you that lighting created out of the blue by magic hammer would be "magic lighting"

But I could be wrong :woot:
 
Marvin said:
"point in case...
how many times has superman taken captain marvels magic punches (to the face) in the past and seemingly laughed them off?
ie kingdom come!"

well if thor can find the time to sneak up on superman(of all people) and sucker punch him with the mallet
he can chalk it up to magic all he wants.

thing is it was simply a cliche plot device

two friends walking down a cavern, friend 1 fears for the safety of friend 2, friend 1 clubs friend 2 at the base of the back of the skull and catches friend two before he hits the ground...
and then goes on to say something along the lines of "i'm sorry" or "that's as far as u go" or some sh1t like that.

ofcourse if they ever got into a fist fight they could throw all the punches they want.

why did he say that?
i figure Morrison wanted to legitimize his little scenario so as to avoid message board meltdown...

two;
because superman is vulnerable to magic...just not in any capacity presented here.
The way I see it. Captain Marvel's strength is fuled by magic, but that doesn't make his punches magic. Say you have a character who is week against electricity, he would take extra damage when being hit by lightning bolts, but not when being run down by a car with an electric motor. In the same vein, J'onn J'onz (before his weakness was removed) doesn't take extra damage from being run over by a steam engine, even though it is powered by fire.
 
The_Mystery said:
But it's stated in EVERY EXPLAINATION for Superman's powers, even the ones from DC. Superman is vulnerable to magic. It's not specific. Just magic. Meaning that it's not like kryptonite where there is "scientific" reasoning behind it's effects on Superman. It just says "Superman is vulnerable to magic" nothing more nothing less (trust me, I've been researching this online for about an hour, I know, but I'm bored at work, so sue me :yay: ). I've seen instances where demonic creatures, with no particular incantation, overpower Superman and actually cause him to bleed (I don't remember the issue number but it's an issue of Superman: Man of Tomorrow, featuring Captain Marvel.) Superman clearly is overpowered by these demon. Their enchantment is to "beat whoever they fight", they are just demons. Another instance is that vampires have bitten Superman in the past. Their teeth don't have a "bite anything" enchantment, they are just magic beings. Therefore, a magic hammer would affect Supes just like it would me or you. A hammer with any type of enchantment is gonna hurt Supes in one way or another because it's magic. I think people are confused with this whole specific enchantment thing. Find me one profile on Superman's abilities where it's stated that way. Just one. They all say one thing: Superman is vulnerable to magic. Period.

But I could be wrong :woot:

and you are...

Kurt Busiek said:
Superman is not allergic to magic; it doesn't affect him like Kryptonite. He is simply vulnerable to it the way everyone else is. So a "turn into a bunny" spell would turn Superman into a bunny. It would also turn the Hulk or Gladiator into a bunny.

The reason Superman is described as vulnerable to magic is not because he's more vulnerable to it than anyone else, but because he's invulnerable to just about everything else. [Or was, pre-Crisis, when magic, red sun rays and Kryptonite were about it.]

Magic doesn't affect him differently from the way it affects other people -- it affects him the same way it does other people. He has no immunity to it.

And neither do the Hulk and Gladiator.

And no, Thor's hammer doesn't make him stronger, and there are no spells on it that make it hit hard. There are a bunch of magic spells on it, but they've been enumerated, and none of them make it hit harder. The spells would work on Superman, to the extent that they'd work on anyone -- but they'd do what the spells are enchanted to do. They wouldn't do more to Superman than they do to the Hulk or Gladiator, because those two characters are no less vulnerable to magic than Superman.

kdb

Assuming that really is Busiek (and everyone on those boards seems to agree it is) I think that his word and opinion means a little more than yours or mine.
 
Varient said:
Not much.
EVERY WIN was performed in some fashion that was not "normal" or established for the winning hero.

Please,.. A nerve pinch from Batman on someone who benches almost 20 tons? Form follows function,.. You'd need super strength or to be the celestial Madonna to pull that off,.. and the Madonna has to wrap her legs around your head to get that effect.

Please part two,.... "solar gem setting him ablaze?" The martians fear of fire is exactly that,... he has been shown proof against beam weapons,.. just because the visions heat beam is solar powered doesn't mean that it should effect Jonn,.. since he gets more heat energy from the sun just transiting to the moon under his own power.

Please part three,..." Wonderwomans bracelts suddenly gaining a new power? TSK - Nuff said.

Please part four,....Thor in desperation is going to bring down a bolt of "magical" lightning on his fight with superman? Find ANYWHERE in Canon where he called down "Magical" Lightning. It has NEVER happened for one thing,.. for another - where would THOR get the idea that Supes is in anyway vulnerable to magic?

Please Part five,... same thing, as four.


The ONLY fight in the ones done by wizard world that seemed CLOSE to type was the widow/canary fight,... and I'd said that a secret agent who used to run with the avengers for years has it over a woman who has been fighting crime for less than ten comic time.


Too bad you can't sue a company for not doing their research before staging a fight.

While I actually agree with most of what you said, Thor has done that before.

hercthor1.gif


hercthor2.gif


hercthor3.gif
 
I'm shocked they had Thor beating both Captain Marvel and Superman. Awesome!

And not only does he beat Superman but he almost insults him. "You were a worthy opponent . . for a mortal!" Hahahaha . . After reading all these arguments I think Thor really would take out Superman, unless Superman got some magical prepping from Batman.
 
Badfish40oz said:
I'm shocked they had Thor beating both Captain Marvel and Superman. Awesome!

And not only does he beat Superman but he almost insults him. "You were a worthy opponent . . for a mortal!" Hahahaha . . After reading all these arguments I think Thor really would take out Superman, unless Superman got some magical prepping from Batman.

Yeah, but IMO they lost all credibilty when they had Vision beating MM and Batman beating Spidey
 
Badfish40oz said:
I'm shocked they had Thor beating both Captain Marvel and Superman. Awesome!

And not only does he beat Superman but he almost insults him. "You were a worthy opponent . . for a mortal!" Hahahaha . . After reading all these arguments I think Thor really would take out Superman, unless Superman got some magical prepping from Batman.

You should be shocked, because neither one of those victories could have happen that way. Maybe...MAYBE Thor could have accidentally called down the Magic lightning and accidentally transformed Billy (and that's a BIG maybe because it's not the right spell even at the Rock of Eternity) but Superman would not be knocked out by a normal lightning bolt... which is what the lightning Thor normally calls down is... Non-magical regular old lightning.
 
kytrigger said:
While I actually agree with most of what you said, Thor has done that before.

hercthor1.gif


hercthor2.gif


hercthor3.gif
?????
But It's NOT Magic Lightning. He pulled a "YOU CALL THIS A GAME??!" Response out of his butt.

As Herc strangled him,... He brought together clouds and changed their polarity and called down ordinary Lightning on himself.


It has been said over and over that he CONTROLS the storm,... he CONTROLS the Lightning,... He doesn't "make" magic lighting or magic weather effects he controls his enviroment w/o Storms limitations able to beat weather immediately into submission.
 
Varient said:
?????
But It's NOT Magic Lightning. He pulled a "YOU CALL THIS A GAME??!" Response out of his butt.

As Herc strangled him,... He brought together clouds and changed their polarity and called down ordinary Lightning on himself.


It has been said over and over that he CONTROLS the storm,... he CONTROLS the Lightning,... He doesn't "make" magic lighting or magic weather effects he controls his enviroment w/o Storms limitations able to beat weather immediately into submission.

Very much so agreed. Thor has only shown the power to manipulate weather patterns, not create brand new ones, and shove them into our existing ecosystem. That would be BEYOND disastrous.
 
Mistress Gluon said:
Very much so agreed. Thor has only shown the power to manipulate weather patterns, not create brand new ones, and shove them into our existing ecosystem. That would be BEYOND disastrous.
Ah,... A Beautiful point in my favor.

Thank you.
 
torkibe said:
Yeah. i agree with pretty much everything you said...
Heh,... I missed this,... Two points for my side.
 
Marvin said:
I think it says something about the fact that these people are just people like us, they write stories and scenarios...they have opinions and ideas

loeb thinks one way(sometimes great sometimes sh1t)
Kurt thinks his way...

whenever someone brings up a reference from a book, i tend to look at it as just someones opinion...

infact put a hand full of them on a message board and present this topic and it would probubly go something like ours...

none of them are "god on high"

i guess it comes down to the creators and editors of the characters.

that being said

i used to think Kurt was an idiot
i guess(glad) i was wrong:yay:
Props on your last,.. everything here is opinion.

(leaving the tag end unsaid.)
 

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