JLA vs avengers

[LouFerignoDemon]

Ah,... A Beautiful point in my favor.

Thank you.

Could you even imagine it? The effect that dictates our wind systems around the world would just be thrown into constant disarray every time he decided to do something. Not that they aren't heavily effected as they stand, but introducing much more pressure, then just relieving it would have very negative effects.

I mean, something like that would be a mad scientists dream.


.... >.>

 

[BrianWilly]

I'm surprised at how much Kurt Busiek and I happen to agree on Superman's vulnerability; it's the first time I'd read that post. I'd just assume that it was common knowledge amongst most readers, I never thought that it would need this much clarification.

I've got one question for you guys. If you guy are saying that the Thor's magic hammer can't knock Superman out (and I'm not saying it can, don't want to walk down that road again), explain how Captain Marvel can PUNCH Superman twice, knocking him out and afterwards say "Well, he's always been vulnerable to magic." If it's all about the impact, should Thor, who I would say is stronger than Capt. Marvel, be able to do the same damage or worse with Mjolnir as Cap did with just his fist, which seemed to be be fuled by magic.

Three things...One: as others have said, most times that Captain Marvel managed to knock out Superman with one or two punches, he did it by surprise or through the fabled sucker-punch. If two people are alike enough in strength, knocking the other out with one or two punches is not beyond reason. Superman could do it to Marvel, too, if he wanted to.

And I'm not sure if Thor is really that much stronger than Captain Marvel. Is Thor stronger than Hercules?

Two: it has been shown that members of the Marvel family can actually channel the magic lightning through their fists, as Black Adam did to Superboy-Prime in Infinite Crisis #6. In these instances, then their fists do become more than just impact and become enchanted.

Three: it has to be said that it's completely possible that the writers just screwed up. JLA and other team books have an endless font of great moments for these characters, but they also have more than a few complete mischaracterizing continuity mistakes. For instance, once it was stated that Wonder Woman's lasso was a catalyst for Universal Truth or something and that when it is broken the universe would begin to unravel; there was a whole arc spent on this, and obviously it is complete nonsense. It's really no different from Spider-Man's arm being broken by Jigdriversawpile or whoever that was in New Avengers and then countless times since then that his spider-sense didn't actually warn him about some pretty blatant dangers.

But it's stated in EVERY EXPLAINATION for Superman's powers, even the ones from DC. Superman is vulnerable to magic. It's not specific. Just magic. Meaning that it's not like kryptonite where there is "scientific" reasoning behind it's effects on Superman. It just says "Superman is vulnerable to magic" nothing more nothing less (trust me, I've been researching this online for about an hour, I know, but I'm bored at work, so sue me ). I've seen instances where demonic creatures, with no particular incantation, overpower Superman and actually cause him to bleed (I don't remember the issue number but it's an issue of Superman: Man of Tomorrow, featuring Captain Marvel.) Superman clearly is overpowered by these demon. Their enchantment is to "beat whoever they fight", they are just demons. Another instance is that vampires have bitten Superman in the past. Their teeth don't have a "bite anything" enchantment, they are just magic beings. Therefore, a magic hammer would affect Supes just like it would me or you. A hammer with any type of enchantment is gonna hurt Supes in one way or another because it's magic. I think people are confused with this whole specific enchantment thing. Find me one profile on Superman's abilities where it's stated that way. Just one. They all say one thing: Superman is vulnerable to magic. Period.

You keep chanting that Superman is vulnerable to magic like some kind of mantra, and the more you say it the more it's clear to me that you've not only missed the point of my very long-winded post, you also misunderstand his vulnerability to magic. Yes, Superman is vulnerable to magic, but it's not nearly "vulnerable to magic" in the way that you're implying; you're using it as some sort of catch-all phrase that is far too hazy and ill-defined than can logically be defended. Yes, a magic hammer would affect Superman just like it would you or me. The problem is that the only way that the hammer in question affects you or me is by hitting us physically. It does not make us weaker. It does not bypass our natural defenses in any way other than a whole lotta blunt trauma. It does not have a spell on it saying, "Be especially more damaging to Superman, but not to Silver Surfer, Hulk, or Gladiator." By the logic that you're using, someone could take the Eye of Agamotto and chuck it at Superman's head and it should knock him out, simply because it's magic and "Superman is vulnerable to magic"; again, that catch-all phrase that doesn't actually explain anything.

Kurt Busiek outlines your flaw in reason pretty clearly:

With Superman, his vulnerability to magic stands out because he's vulnerable to so little, but it's not a special weakness; very few characters do have defenses against magic, and most of the ones that do are magic-based characters in the first place. But we don't think of Jimmy Olsen being vulnerable to magic because he's vulnerable to such a long list of things, and magic is just one of them; it doesn't stand out.

Pragmatically, there is no difference between saying that Superman is vulnerable against magic and saying that Superman is vulnerable against telepathy. He's vulnerable to both, but so are a vast majority of people in existence.

If some wizard made a magical staff that lets him control plants and he attacks Superman with it, of course it's not going to do anything. Its magic has nothing to do with anything other than controlling plants. But you're saying that you can attack Superman with a self-returning hammer that lets you control lightning and fly and warp...and that should hurt him?? Why? What makes the hammer different than the staff? The hammer is no more an offensive weapon than the staff could be.

What if, say, someone made a staff of healing and then wacked Superman with it? Would he heal, or would he be hurt since he's "vulnerable to magic?" Under your parameters of "He's just vulnerable to magic, period, end of story," he should be on the ground, gasping for breath. It doesn't matter that the magic in the staff is made for an expressedly different purpose than hitting people, it would just hurt Superman like all magic hurts Superman.

Which doesn't make any sense at all. And I'm not talking about it not making sense in the way that "MAGIC IS NOT SCIENCE LOL HAT BUNNIES" but in the way that directly contradicts the nature of both magic and Superman. There has to be parameters and there has to be an identifiable cause of why this specific magic would hurt Superman, or else it just doesn't make sense. And not just for Superman, but for all characters.

To hurt Superman with magic could be as simple and straightforward as demons whose magic power is to "hurt mortal creatures." Or it could be as complex and specific as "Three minutes after forty people in New York fart on the night of the full moon, people whose names rhyme with 'Mark Dent' will turn into a cactus." It doesn't matter. The point is that there has to be a reason why the magic would hurt him. Mjolnir has a billion enchantments on it, all powerful, all efficient, all effective...and yet absolutely none of them have anything to do with being able to specifically hurt Superman. You saying "It's a magic hammer, and Superman is vulnerable to magic" over and over again doesn't change that. There are magic hammers that sing. There are magic hammers that summon dwarves. There are magic hammers that give you giant elbows. They don't hurt Superman.

As for the vampires, Kurt Busiek answers you also:

What John [Byrne] presupposes is that a vampire bite is a magical attack. Me, I'm not so sure -- a vampire is a magical being, but is anything a vampire does magical? Is a vampire punch a magical attack? A vampire kick? Could a vampire beat Superman in a bare-knuckle brawl? It doesn't ring right to me. I tend to think a vampire is a magical being, but that doesn't make everything a vampire does magical.

I always figured vampire bites were about jaw strength and durability, and the magic was in the infection of the vampire's saliva, or whatever. So a vampire's preternaturally strong, but that doesn't make a vampire punch a magical attack, any more than a punch from Wonder Woman (also a magical being) is a magical attack. It just means it hits hard because there's a lot of force behind it -- the magic is acting on the vampire's muscles, not on the person he's attacking. And as such, a vampire's bite itself isn't magical -- the effects of it are.

But as noted, there are apparently multiple kinds of vampires, and the ones John wrote had magical bites. Those ones, I'd figure, could bite Gladiator too, because he's got no special resistance to magic.

Baron Blood, on the other hand, can't bite through chainmail. So I wouldn't think he could bite through Superman's skin. Unless the parameters of the magic there were that he could bite through any flesh, but who knows?

I think the mistake people make is assuming that anything "magical" is going to have a magical effect. But as noted, Wonder Woman's magical, but that doesn't make her punches magical attacks.

Think of it this way: If Superman was vulnerable to electricity, a taser would hurt him. But would a flashlight beam hurt him? It's electrically powered, after all. But it's not an electrical attack.

Same deal for magic. Magic works on Superman. Magical beings, however, don't necessarily unleash that magic with everything they do. Magic spells do specific things; they affect things in the specific way the magic is shaped. So Superman will be affected in specific ways, not in the same way by all magical items.

kdb

So there you go. You can either accept it or not, but that's the answer straight from a long-time Marvel and DC writer. He pretty much says the exact same things I did, anyway.

Shazam's lighting doesn't have an enchantment that makes it devastating to anyone struck with it, the enchantment is to turn Billy into Capt. Marvel. Therefore further backing up what I said earlier: It doesn't matter what enchantment.

And like I said, Shazam's lightning is composed of raw magic energy. Raw magic obviously has properties that are damaging to Superman, because it doesn't affect you in any physically-explainable manner. If it isn't explainable through science, then it affects Superman. It's the same properties as the god-blast which, as I said, if Thor shot Superman with he would be utterly toast.

Shazam's lightning actually has many more properties beyond just behind a transforming agent. It can act as fuel for magic spells, for instance.

.Where it would be getting hit with the hammer or struck by lighting "created" by the hammer(and for those who don't believe, common sense should tell you that lighting created out of the blue by magic hammer would be "magic lighting"

That's a pretty big assumption, with not a lot of backing. Storm creates lightning out of the blue, too. Her lightning is not magic. Where has it been specifically stated, "Thor's lightning is lightning laced with magic energy"?

 

[BrianWilly]

Very much so agreed. Thor has only shown the power to manipulate weather patterns, not create brand new ones, and shove them into our existing ecosystem. That would be BEYOND disastrous.

To be fair, anytime that Storm or Thor or Iceman uses more than a fraction of their powers, it should be sending the entire world into an ecological mess. The global weather system depends on so many checks and balances and one thing affecting another that to disrupt even one element should topple the entire scale. If a butterly flapping its wings in America can create a tornado in China, imagine what creating a tornodo in America can do.

 

[BrianWilly]

double post

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

To be fair, anytime that Storm or Thor or Iceman uses more than a fraction of their powers, it should be sending the entire world into an ecological mess. The global weather system depends on so many checks and balances and one thing affecting another that to disrupt even one element should topple the entire scale. If a butterly flapping its wings in America can create a tornado in China, imagine what creating a tornodo in America can do.

I wouldn't say an ecological mess. It should be affecting it, having tsunamis and such. But introducing, increasing pressure world wide, and then just taking it away would cause just massive problems.

And the Butterfly effect isn't NEARLY as powerful as people say. Butterflies do NOT create enough energy to create a cascading effect. If they did, a single windstorm on Earth would create a never ending storm that would purge life from our planet.

 

[ibsisomis]

I know it seems that we are heading down this road again but let me kinda clear up what I think that Mystery is saying. It's not only the fact that the hammer does damage to supes, it's the fact that who is doing the swinging with the hammer as to what type of damage we can see. Take for instance in some crazy way Jimmy Olson grabs Thor's hammer and throws it at supes. Does it hurt? sure, because of his "vulnerability" to magic. Will it knock him out? NO! Not enough force behind the blow. More damage would be done by Thor because he is physically equal to superman. That's all I'm saying, I totally agree with the past 3-4 post you have put up in regards to superman's "vulnerability" to magic. You have shed some light on te subject for me. I am not the worlds formost expert on superman, but you have to admit it's kinda silly to say that (DC writers) Captain Marvel (even with cheap shots) can knock out supes with 2 punches but Thor swings a "magical" hammer at supes head and he catches it unscaithed. That's almost as stupid as in one fight wolverine not being able to scratch Hulk's skin and the next cutting him like a Christmas Day turkey. Bad writting is just that bad writting. Whether you like Marvel or DC each corp has inconsistancies in writting.

 

[Marvin]

Where does it say Thor is physically equal to superman...

I mean if jimmy struck superman and superman caught the hammer there would be no problem(i hope)

but Thor he's supposedly on par with superman so he shouldn't have been able to right?

thing is we don't know their exact strength measurments in relation to each other.

superman may very well be stronger not to the point of easily catching a jimmy strike..
but strong enough to barely catch a thor strike

Superman is kinda the strongest around

best part is
people always go around saying that spiderman under extreme conditions can do however much times his normal capacity.

well what about Clark Kent?

 

[BrianWilly]

I know it seems that we are heading down this road again but let me kinda clear up what I think that Mystery is saying. It's not only the fact that the hammer does damage to supes, it's the fact that who is doing the swinging with the hammer as to what type of damage we can see. Take for instance in some crazy way Jimmy Olson grabs Thor's hammer and throws it at supes. Does it hurt? sure, because of his "vulnerability" to magic. Will it knock him out? NO! Not enough force behind the blow. More damage would be done by Thor because he is physically equal to superman.

That's...well, not exactly. I don't want to keep nitpicking either, but that's not exactly how it would work. The second part is mostly true in that if Thor hit Superman with the hammer, it would hurt him a helluva lot more than if Jimmy did it, simply because Thor is stronger than Jimmy by a millionfold.

The first part is requires a bit more explanation, though. If Jimmy Olsen picked up Mjolnir, it would be because he was worthy. And if he was worthy, the hammer would grant him the power of Thor. Which means that if he hits Superman with the hammer, it's going to hurt just as much as if Thor had hit him.

But then, let's play a little what-if game for a moment: what if Mjolnir did everything that it was supposed to do except to give its wielder the strength of Thor? That would mean that Jimmy would be using Mjolnir at his own human strength. Now, if someone of Jimmy Olsen's strength swung Mjolnir at Superman, it would do absolutely nothing. It would harmless bounce off Superman's chest or noggin, as if Jimmy had swung a normal hammer albeit one that is much tougher than normal. Why? Because that's not how Superman's magic vulnerability works, and that's not how the magic of Mjolnir works. The magic of Mjolnir doesn't hurt the enemy by itself, it merely gives its wielder the capacity to hurt the enemy. And if its wielder decides to simply swing the hammer at someone -- which is clearly not magical -- Superman's not vulnerable to it any more than he would be to a normal swing of that caliber.

One thing that everyone should consider is that Odin enchanted Mjolnir and Mjolnir's abilities specifically for Thor. Consider that Thor is already super-strong. Consider that Thor is already capable of amazing combat feats and warrior prowress on his own. Thor himself is a weapon. Why, then, would he need a weapon that will magically do what he already can do anyway: defeat his opponents? Why would Odin want a win-all enchantment placed on the hammer that will fight Thor's battles for him? The hammer already lets him control the weather as befitting his status as a god. It already allows him to fly which lessens his disadvantage of being a big and bulky target and not too agile. It even allows him to travel between dimensions which is smart considering that Odin had planned from the start for Thor to be a child of both Asgard and Midgard. Most importantly, it is a completely honest judge of Thor's own character and will constantly reveal if he is truly worthy to be called the Odinson. Don't you guys think that to put further enchantments on Mjolnir to tip the scales in combat would be a tad against the code of the Asgardians and especially Odin's, who favor a fair and honorable fight at all times? Don't you think that Thor himself would find it a bit shameful and unsportsmanlike if he can constantly win Superman only because of his magic hammer magically gave him the win and not because of any strength he has for himself? It only goes to show that the strength of Mjolnir's blows and the destruction that it can create is reliant entirely on Thor's own, and not on the fact that "it's a magic hammer."

Wonder Woman needs a sword that can specifically chop through anything because in her line of work she will encounter many opponents, such as Superman, who are resistant to pretty much everything else. Thor doesn't. Yes that's right; the Greek gods made an automatic win failsafe for Wonder Woman, whereas Thor must rely on his own strength. This means that the Olympians are cheating cheapskate cheaters compared to the Asgardians. This, incidentally, is not news! Mythology is filled to the brim with instances of the Olympians doing whatever it takes to win including lying, deceit, and giving their favored champions flat-out unfair advantages, while the Norse gods were largely honorable and had true warrior's hearts.

 

[supermarvelman]

Well the lightning is Magical, Thor's lightning would do the job. Magic hammer or not a wins a win.

 

[BrianWilly]

I see no evidence that the lightning is magical.

 

[Anubis]

Well the lightning is Magical, Thor's lightning would do the job. Magic hammer or not a wins a win.

WTF are you talking about? The Lightning isn't magical. It's just Lightning. He magically controls the Lightning. It's not Magic. It's not like a mystic bolt from Zeus or SHAZAM's seven bolts, it's just ordinary run of the mill lightning. Do you understand the words that are appearing on your screen?

Thor has the God Blast. That's all the magical energy projection he has. And that's really all he needs. Though hitting a guy that can move at near the speed of light is quite a feat.

 

[ibsisomis]

uuuuuggghhhh....!!! Superman ISN"T the strongest around, Hulk is. But as far a Thor's hammer is concerned I guess we need a Thor expert in here to give us the break down of the hammer's abilities and whatnot because I don't know the specifics of it and I guess that I'll leave the subject (about what if Thor's hammer hit supes) alone. I guess I see your point in that you don't think it's "strike" is magical at all therefore it would be like Thor just hitting him with like a real sledgehammer. I get it now. But are you sure it's strike isn't magical (i.e him hitting someone with it by swinging it.)? I do think that Thor could KILL supes though with God Blast.

 

[Anubis]

It's it's just a really durable hammer as far as using it as a physical weapon. Thor's Strength and the hammer's durability is what makes it effective or not. I really can't understand why people don't realize that that whole vulnerability to magic thing isn't all it's cracked up to be. The main reason everybody says it's so effective goes back to the Captain Marvel fight in Kingdom Come. He got hurt pretty bad by the seven bolts, but, it didn't kill him. If he was as vulnerable to magic as anybody else, then he would have died on the first strike. Second at best. He took like twelve before he got pissed and decided to end it. He's still pretty damn invulnerable. But if you get specific, like an enchanted sword that can slice an atom in half, or hell fire that can burn anything, then you got something that can hurt him. A hammer made of mystic metal isn't gonna do dik more than a Titanium hammer would.

uuuuuggghhhh....!!! Superman ISN"T the strongest around, Hulk is.

Only when he has time to get pissed. All you gotta do is put him out before he gets all riled up. Hell, Spider-Man did that.

 

[roach]

If a butterly flapping its wings in America can create a tornado in China, imagine what creating a tornodo in America can do.

cause butterflies to flap their wings in China???

 

[torkibe]

uuuuuggghhhh....!!! Superman ISN"T the strongest around, Hulk is.

Says you. The feats they both have shown tell another tale. But I'm not getting into this again.

 

[Varient]

heh.

oh hell,...


LAUGHING OUT LOUD.

Only on the hype can one have full blown arguements about "who is what"

The ONLY thing folk seem to agree about as far as ability is:
DC flash is the fastest "mortal" in the DC Universe.

Everything else is "up in the Air"

(Smirk)

 

[roach]

heh.

oh hell,...


LAUGHING OUT LOUD.

Only on the hype can one have full blown arguements about "who is what"

The ONLY thing folk seem to agree about as far as ability is:
DC flash is the fastest "mortal" in the DC Universe.

Everything else is "up in the Air"

(Smirk)

Flash is mortal????

 

[torkibe]

heh.

oh hell,...


LAUGHING OUT LOUD.

Only on the hype can one have full blown arguements about "who is what"

The ONLY thing folk seem to agree about as far as ability is:
DC flash is the fastest "mortal" in the DC Universe.

Everything else is "up in the Air"

(Smirk)

And that's only since they retconned the Speed Force into it. Before that, people still argued if Superman was faster than the Flash, lol.

 

[Marvin]

never thought i'd see the day when the general consensus (on these boards anyways) on Vulnerability to magic was the in the right mind frame.

I loved how these threads always start...

"Caps super batman is not, MM is weak against fire....
and Superman is weak against magic so Thor takes him..."

and then we have some writers who print those magical words "vulnerable to magics"
just screaming to be misinterpreted...

and ofcourse, on the character stats sheets...
it's there for superman but not for say batman...


I don't blame people for mis interpreting...
i just pity them

haha just kiddin
it's a good day

 

[torkibe]

never thought i'd see the day when the general consensus (on these boards anyways) on Vulnerability to magic was the in the right mind frame.

What are you talking bout? I posted quotes from Busiek and people are still saying arguing that he's more vulnerable to Magic than other people.

 

[Marvin]

well what i ment was...

people other than just me

(that being said, i haven't seen any people presenting arguments...just opinions)

 

[Sloth7d]

never thought i'd see the day when the general consensus (on these boards anyways) on Vulnerability to magic was the in the right mind frame.

I loved how these threads always start...

"Caps super batman is not, MM is weak against fire....
and Superman is weak against magic so Thor takes him..."

and then we have some writers who print those magical words "vulnerable to magics"
just screaming to be misinterpreted...

and ofcourse, on the character stats sheets...
it's there for superman but not for say batman...


I don't blame people for mis interpreting...
i just pity them

haha just kiddin
it's a good day

Yeah, he's vulnerable to magic, Thor could take him. Dianna slit his palms with an enchanted sword, I'm sure Thor could make him bleed with an attack from his hammer.

 

[The_Mystery]

Okay, let me clear things up so that people TRULY understand me.
1. Let me say right off the bat that I never said "MAGIC WEAKENS SUPERMAN." Being "vulnerable" to something and something weakening you are two different things. Superman is "vulnerable to magic" but Kryptonite "weakens" Superman. Got it? Good. So stop mis-interpretting(sp) me.
2. For those of you so intent on leaning on the JLA/Avengers crossover, go check it again. During the fight between Thor & Supes, Thor brings down a massive blow towards Supes while Mjolnir was crackling with MAGICAL ENERGY!!! My problem is that said energy should have negated Superman's vaunted "invulnerablity force-field" and broke his hand. Superman just caught the damn hammer and then batted Thor away. He didn't even have any effect from the blow. That my friends should be impossible by the "rules of the character's powers." Everywhere I search it just says that Superman is vulnerable to magic. It doesn't say "certain enchantments," and it's not specific. If Superman can get "humbled" by random demon-possessed humans, then a magic war hammer swung by a thunder god should at least knock him out.
3. I like Kurt Buisek's writing. I consider myself a fan. The problem that I have with him is that he is clearly ignoring continuity. When someone brings up John Byrne's statements on the this particular subject, he clearly says he doesn't agree with him and that's not "how he sees it." He's giving his opinion which, in all honesty, holds as much weight as yours or mine. I say this because there have been hundreds of people who have written Superman and they all have a different opinion on the character, his powers and weaknesses, so for you to just say "okay, Kurt said it so it's true" hold as much weight as me saying "well, John Byrne says otherwise, so he's right." I'm not looking at people's opinion, I'm looking at the character's explaination of his weakness from the company DC comis and they don't say what Kurt is saying. They just say "vulnerable to magic" and the show, time and time again that it doesn't matter the enchantment. For all you people out there who don't believe me, scour your long boxes and show me an example of something "magical" not hurting Supes due to it's enchantment. I can give you ten examples, you can only give me one and that is something that Kurt himself wrote.
4. Also, someone got it right earlier. They said that if Jimmy Olsen hit Superman with Mjolnir it wouldn't hurt him as much as Thor would. Look at it this way, if you hit Triple H with a sledgehammer it would hurt him, but not as much as if say Batista hits him with it.
5. Lastly, yes, the lighting from Thor's hammer is magical because their is a magical enchantment on it that allows it to create lighting. If a magic hammer creates lighting, then the lighting has got to be laced with some type of magic. It's 1+1+2. Very simple.

You guys really must be Superman fans because you keep picking and choosing and rationalizing a very simple statement. It's been stated time and time again with no specifics to hinder it: Superman is vulnerable to magic. It's been that way for years and I haven't read NOT ONE comic that says it has to do with the specifics of the enchantment. You guys are making stuff up. Either that or riding Kurt's opinion (because that's what it is) even though he clearly brushes off another comic creator's opinion.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Never read the JLA/Avengers crossover, so I can't comment on that. But isn't that not within continuity?

As far as the hammer goes, you are correct about that Mystery.
He is vulnerable to magic, and it would be very much like getting hit with a sledge hammer. Superman would have been hurting crazy if he caught Thor's hammer. It might have even broken something (Although it would have healed after a few seconds) and hurt quite a bit.

I still think though that Superman would leave him to some of the other JLA members who would be much more equipped to handle him though.

 

[Varient]

TO "THE MYSTERY":

scary.
Marvel has written countless bio's on Thor stating that he "controls the Storm"

Marvel writers have said countless times in both interviews and in STORIES like when Iron Man himself ran tests on the sly that states that the only "Magic" in Thors weather effects is in his control of them.

You have read more than a few fans who have read comics and stated examples to you of how Thor has "never" manifested "magic" lightning and had more than one state that if he ever did manifest such effects out of magic instead of manipulating the enviroment as EVERYONE ELSE has said that it would upset the balance on the planet and cause serious destruction.

Yet you want to say "magic hammer = Magic Lightning"

Sigh.

then you excuse your ignoring numerous comic writers,.. logical arguments based on canon and a TOTAL LACK of proof on your part by comic issue or storyline as "you guys are all superman fans and WE are picking and choosing stuff.


I challenge you to post ONE COMIC,.. ONE PAGE,.. ONE PICTURE, where it is said, stated, explained, pointed out, or shown THAT THE LIGHTNING IS "MAGICAL"????? If you can't - your whole argument is MOOT and you are wasting YOUR TIME.