Justice League Justice league movie approach-Lead ins vs no leadins

[Sun_Down]

I understand that after Green Lantern bombed, Warner Bros is afraid of taking the risk, but without the risk, there will be less reward. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Justice League has no chance of beating Avengers in the box office. Absolute zero. Avengers was built up as an event, where Justice League is being built like an X-Men film with more famous characters. This film will break $1 B if it's well made based on having the Superman/ Batman dynamic, but in terms of $1.5-2 B, and being an Avengers/ Cameron killer, it's not happening.

I think the difference between GL and Thor/Cap/etc. is that GL (from what I can tell), lost money, while the Marvel ones were profitable. I get why WB is nervous. And I also get why they want to get into the "superhero team up" business before it's too late.

I agree that the "event" nature of it may be lacking. But you can have a big budget "event movie" that isn't a sequel/team up. No, you can't match the buzz of an Avengers or TDK/TDKR, but if they get talented actors and directors, and create buzz with marketing/trailers, it can be successful.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

If they can get Bale back, it will seem to the GA that it was "DC" that were taking their time, getting out 10 years of films out, while Avengers only did 4. It will also tie Justice League to the most successful single superhero.

 

[Sun_Down]

If they can get Bale back, it will seem to the GA that it was "DC" that were taking their time, getting out 10 years of films out, while Avengers only did 4. It will also tie Justice League to the most successful single superhero.

How great would that be? $1.5B box office without even breaking a sweat.

I know Bale's said he's done, but the developments with X-Men (Singer, Stewart, McKellan and Jackman joining FC2) makes atiny part of me hopeful the same thing could happen with Bale, if Justice League happened in like 2020, instead of 2015. That tiny part of me could see him coming back after a long break from the character.

 

[cleverusername8]

So now that we have seen a bit more from Man of Steel, how is everyone feeling on whether it will tie to Justice League?

I am now definitively saying yes, I believe they are planning on using it as a launch point. The whole thing about the public not being ready for superheroes will probably continue into Justice League and potentially end up being a major focus of that movie as well. Especially since now there will be a whole group... an "army" of super powered beings sending the world into hysterics with fear.

Chances are, the reaction to Superman at the end of MOS will be mixed among the public and will cause governments to divide their view on him as well and possibly cause pressure on the heroes from a government level (maybe making them full on outlaws like in New 52 Justice League?) In any case I'm so excited I don't know if I can contain it

 

[jmc]

I am more opposed than ever to a JL film that ties to MoS after seeing the trailer.

 

[Dusty_Lane]

Personally, I'm down with this Justice League thing as long as Bale comes back. Nolan's emphasis on realism shouldn't be a factor. The key is establishing a tone that's radically different from The Avengers. This latest trailer for Man of Steel seems to have a tone that compliments the Nolanverse perfectly. The Dark Knight Trilogy is it's own thing and will not be ruined if Bale comes back for Justice League. The idea of the Justice League being formed is the whole idea of a group of people coming together when just having Superman in the world isn't enough. Justice League needs the human touch to keep them honest and remind them who guards the guardians. Who better to used for that then the most human Batman we've ever seen in cinema.....Christian Bale. Bale's inclusion, aside from looking badass next the Cavill's Superman, would almost all but guarantee this movie's financial success as noted by the poster above. I've said this too in a previous thread about the casting. As for TDKR's ending with Bruce being retired? Whatever catastrophic event that helps bring the League together, I'm sure Bruce could put aside his nice little retirement to help save the world. Hell, he could still be in touch with Lucius Fox and have Wayne Enterprises be the League's financial backer supplying them with the Watchtower, Javelin-7, and all the other high-tech goods.

 

[Zionite1]

The brilliant thing about Avengers is that even though Iron Man and Thor were clearly not top tier characters before their first films, after them, they had become A-listers. You don't have a half a billion dollar film, and still get called a B-lister.

Public awareness for Thor, Captain America, Iron Man and Hulk was much higher going into Avengers than it will be for Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, etc going into this film. That's indisputable. You can't possibly compare a Wonder Woman tv series from 40 years ago that might have had 5-10 Million viewers to films that sold 35-50 Million tickets worldwide and several million dvds/ blu-rays.

I understand that after Green Lantern bombed, Warner Bros is afraid of taking the risk, but without the risk, there will be less reward. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Justice League has no chance of beating Avengers in the box office. Absolute zero. Avengers was built up as an event, where Justice League is being built like an X-Men film with more famous characters. This film will break $1 B if it's well made based on having the Superman/ Batman dynamic, but in terms of $1.5-2 B, and being an Avengers/ Cameron killer, it's not happening.

From an artistic perspective, you have to cram a lot more into the films. Aside from developing character dynamics, you have potentially 4 characters in the Justice League who are from non-human races vs just one in Avengers, who already got his own film. Imagine trying to explain Amazonians, Atlanteans, Martians, and The 4th world, in addition to developing actual chemistry and plot, in a 3 hour movie. It's damn near impossible.

I imagine we won't see Aquaman or MMH in this film for that reason, but if they went the solo route, we could get the entire big 7 in this film, and the film would be about the development of the villain and the character relationships, vs fleshing out solo heroes who most people don't know very much about.

Very good post.I do think the Jl movie can succeed without solos but I dont think itll do avengers numbers

 

[KangConquers]

Very good post.I do think the Jl movie can succeed without solos but I dont think itll do avengers numbers

It also depends what they spend on it. If they spend the amount of money Disney spent on Avengers, they'll have to make $600-700 M just to break even. That's pretty high expectations for any film, and I myself worried that Avengers might have minor difficulty recouping the costs associated with making quarter billion dollar movie and promoting it.

If Justice League costs what Avengers did (and it probably will) it will need to make at least $800 M to be viewed as any sort of success. The true bar for success however, is beating TDKR's $1.08 Billion. If Batman + other people can't beat Batman alone, it makes all of DC's other superheroes look like a liability to WB's golden goose(s if Man of Steel is also huge.)

 

[Zionite1]

I posted a few pages back the problems the spinoff approach has.Now here are my proped solution to those problems.I


NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 1:
The appeal of seeing JL movie without solos-Bats and supes
The appeal of seeing JL movie with solos-Bats,supes,flash,GL,WW.
Jl has less of an apppeal without solos.Doesnt mean it will fail just mean it wont succced as much as it wld with solos.
Solution:There is no way to solve this one without solos


NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 2:
The other problem the spinoff approach has is establsihing the various mythologies of each hero in the same universe with one go.
For example Establishing Wonder woman mythos(fantasy) and Green lantern mythos(sci fi) in the same universe and having them interact normally.
Solution:Establish a universe where crazy **** goes down where magic can co exist side by side.This takes planning the equvalent of creating middle earth.

NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 3:
Jl movie following the spinoff approach has to Get all characterisations right in one go and seeing as they cant use solo leadins as template like the avengers did,this will be more difficult. It also has to establish the foundation for each of the 4 spinoff franchises correctly otherwise they cant be made
Solution:Research and Plan for the spinoff farnachises stories and have the story for justice league spinoff it

NEGATIVES OF NO LEADUP-NO 4:
They have the risk of being seen as a superhero team(Fantastic Four,Xmen) instead of being seen as a superhero team up(Avengers) without Solos.
Solution:Play up the different heroes assmbing angle

 

[shauner111]

Personally, I'm down with this Justice League thing as long as Bale comes back. Nolan's emphasis on realism shouldn't be a factor. The key is establishing a tone that's radically different from The Avengers. This latest trailer for Man of Steel seems to have a tone that compliments the Nolanverse perfectly. The Dark Knight Trilogy is it's own thing and will not be ruined if Bale comes back for Justice League. The idea of the Justice League being formed is the whole idea of a group of people coming together when just having Superman in the world isn't enough. Justice League needs the human touch to keep them honest and remind them who guards the guardians. Who better to used for that then the most human Batman we've ever seen in cinema.....Christian Bale. Bale's inclusion, aside from looking badass next the Cavill's Superman, would almost all but guarantee this movie's financial success as noted by the poster above. I've said this too in a previous thread about the casting. As for TDKR's ending with Bruce being retired? Whatever catastrophic event that helps bring the League together, I'm sure Bruce could put aside his nice little retirement to help save the world. Hell, he could still be in touch with Lucius Fox and have Wayne Enterprises be the League's financial backer supplying them with the Watchtower, Javelin-7, and all the other high-tech goods.

Well said man.

 

[Zionite1]

Personally, I'm down with this Justice League thing as long as Bale comes back. Nolan's emphasis on realism shouldn't be a factor. The key is establishing a tone that's radically different from The Avengers. This latest trailer for Man of Steel seems to have a tone that compliments the Nolanverse perfectly. The Dark Knight Trilogy is it's own thing and will not be ruined if Bale comes back for Justice League. The idea of the Justice League being formed is the whole idea of a group of people coming together when just having Superman in the world isn't enough. Justice League needs the human touch to keep them honest and remind them who guards the guardians. Who better to used for that then the most human Batman we've ever seen in cinema.....Christian Bale. Bale's inclusion, aside from looking badass next the Cavill's Superman, would almost all but guarantee this movie's financial success as noted by the poster above. I've said this too in a previous thread about the casting. As for TDKR's ending with Bruce being retired? Whatever catastrophic event that helps bring the League together, I'm sure Bruce could put aside his nice little retirement to help save the world. Hell, he could still be in touch with Lucius Fox and have Wayne Enterprises be the League's financial backer supplying them with the Watchtower, Javelin-7, and all the other high-tech goods.

wrong thread

 

[Skrilla31]

I'm sorry but you need tie-ins. I know there are some creative people out there but the only reason Avengers was as successful as it was is because each individual character was established in their own film and when they all teamed up it was seen as an event. And seeing as the Justice League is far and away more iconic than the Avengers, they too should be aiming for an event. Sadly it would take tremendous patience on the studio's part and patience is never an easy sell to a studio that's looking for the quick buck.

You need to give Superman AT LEAST two movies by himself before going into Justice League. You need to REBOOT the Batman franchise so that people forget about Nolan's movies, which if I'm being honest may also require two successful movies. You need to REDO Green Lantern. You need to LAUNCH both Wonder Woman and Flash. I'm sorry but they NEED to do these things if they want this movie to feel big.

If they're not prepared to do just that, then don't even bother. Blow your load too quickly and it's never quite the same.

 

[CoolCadaver49]

I'm sorry but you need tie-ins. I know there are some creative people out there but the only reason Avengers was as successful as it was is because each individual character was established in their own film and when they all teamed up it was seen as an event. And seeing as the Justice League is far and away more iconic than the Avengers, they too should be aiming for an event. Sadly it would take tremendous patience on the studio's part and patience is never an easy sell to a studio that's looking for the quick buck.

I agree to an extent. The Justice League is composed of characters that are 100 times more iconic than those featured in The Avengers. So I think it will still very much be an EVENT film. I think people would go crazy just at the thought of seeing Batman and Superman on-screen together. But the movie wouldn't be on the GA radar for nearly as long as The Avengers was. No build-up movies means a lot less hype, I think.

But the biggest issue is if the quality of the movie would suffer as a result. What if The Avengers had to explain who every member was before it got on with anything? I mean, it couldn't even fully explain how Thor had even GOTTEN there. A Justice League movie with no build-up films has to explain how all of these heroes inhabit the same universe, it has to introduce their personalities and their power-set. It has to do the work of a bunch of individual films, PLUS tell an interesting. original story. That's a ridiculously tall order.

You need to give Superman AT LEAST two movies by himself before going into Justice League. You need to REBOOT the Batman franchise so that people forget about Nolan's movies, which if I'm being honest may also require two successful movies. You need to REDO Green Lantern. You need to LAUNCH both Wonder Woman and Flash. I'm sorry but they NEED to do these things if they want this movie to feel big.

I agree that build-up movies would work better, but I think they would only really need three: A Superman movie (MoS), a Wonder Woman movie, and a Batman re-boot. Sure, the Justice League film would feel a lot bigger and epic if each hero had their own film, but I just don't really think that it's necessary. That's taking necessary risks.

Either way, there's almost an impossibly big risk. Should WB rush this movie out, and try to cram in introductions? Or should they risk even more money on launching two new franchises (Wonder Woman & Batman reboot; the latter of which, btw has to endure comparisons to the best CBM trilogy of all time) to lead into a Justice League movie?

If they're not prepared to do just that, then don't even bother. Blow your load too quickly and it's never quite the same.

Thanks for the pleasant metaphor there.

Really, the most interesting thing is just how much previous films will factor into this Justice League movie. Before I saw the new MoS trailer, I was certain that I wanted a rebooted Batman for the JL. Now, seeing how the tone seems consistent with Nolan's films, I'm just not sure...

I do still think it would be stepping on the Bat-trilogy's foot to force Bruce Wayne out of retirement. I'm not saying that I don't think that the character wouldn't do it, I'm just saying that it seems sloppy and awkward from a writing perspective.

As for Green Lantern, I've never seen it. They'll probably pull the same thing that The Avengers did with Hulk, if it really is that bad.

 

[Dusty_Lane]

wrong thread

Oh for the love of god just call the superherohype forum police why don't you....

 

[Dusty_Lane]

I agree to an extent. The Justice League is composed of characters that are 100 times more iconic than those featured in The Avengers. So I think it will still very much be an EVENT film. I think people would go crazy just at the thought of seeing Batman and Superman on-screen together. But the movie wouldn't be on the GA radar for nearly as long as The Avengers was. No build-up movies means a lot less hype, I think.

But the biggest issue is if the quality of the movie would suffer as a result. What if The Avengers had to explain who every member was before it got on with anything? I mean, it couldn't even fully explain how Thor had even GOTTEN there. A Justice League movie with no build-up films has to explain how all of these heroes inhabit the same universe, it has to introduce their personalities and their power-set. It has to do the work of a bunch of individual films, PLUS tell an interesting. original story. That's a ridiculously tall order.



I agree that build-up movies would work better, but I think they would only really need three: A Superman movie (MoS), a Wonder Woman movie, and a Batman re-boot. Sure, the Justice League film would feel a lot bigger and epic if each hero had their own film, but I just don't really think that it's necessary. That's taking necessary risks.

Either way, there's almost an impossibly big risk. Should WB rush this movie out, and try to cram in introductions? Or should they risk even more money on launching two new franchises (Wonder Woman & Batman reboot; the latter of which, btw has to endure comparisons to the best CBM trilogy of all time) to lead into a Justice League movie?

Thanks for the pleasant metaphor there.

Really, the most interesting thing is just how much previous films will factor into this Justice League movie. Before I saw the new MoS trailer, I was certain that I wanted a rebooted Batman for the JL. Now, seeing how the tone seems consistent with Nolan's films, I'm just not sure...

I do still think it would be stepping on the Bat-trilogy's foot to force Bruce Wayne out of retirement. I'm not saying that I don't think that the character wouldn't do it, I'm just saying that it seems sloppy and awkward from a writing perspective.

As for Green Lantern, I've never seen it. They'll probably pull the same thing that The Avengers did with Hulk, if it really is that bad.

First off, epic Clint face and very well applied....lol! However, on that last comment regarding sloppy and awkward from a writing perspective I must respectfully disagree. Call me crazy but I think it would be even sloppier and awkward to force a reboot just for the sole purpose of doing this Justice League movie. We have an established cinematic Batman. Bruce has saved Gotham, but that doesn't mean he's saved the world. Batman just as a character has this complusive desire to answer a call for help when needed. I don't see where it steps on the toes of TDK trilogy....especially when you really just take the approach of not having to go into deep explanation for why Bruce is back. Just say Christian Bale IS Batman, he's back to help because he's needed and that's that! Both "Batman: Year One" and "JLA: New World Order" are radically different in tone, but yet are still set in the same universe. Same principle here is what I'm trying to suggest. Plus, again I think the problem is not trying to fit the Nolanverse into a world of Superheroes ala the Man of Steel.....the real problem is how would you fit something like the god awful Green Lantern movie into this continuity.

 

[CoolCadaver49]

First off, epic Clint face and very well applied....lol! However, on that last comment regarding sloppy and awkward from a writing perspective I must respectfully disagree. Call me crazy but I think it would be even sloppier and awkward to force a reboot just for the sole purpose of doing this Justice League movie. We have an established cinematic Batman. Bruce has saved Gotham, but that doesn't mean he's saved the world. Batman just as a character has this complusive desire to answer a call for help when needed. I don't see where it steps on the toes of TDK trilogy....especially when you really just take the approach of not having to go into deep explanation for why Bruce is back. Just say Christian Bale IS Batman, he's back to help because he's needed and that's that! Both "Batman: Year One" and "JLA: New World Order" are radically different in tone, but yet are still set in the same universe. Same principle here is what I'm trying to suggest. Plus, again I think the problem is not trying to fit the Nolanverse into a world of Superheroes ala the Man of Steel.....the real problem is how would you fit something like the god awful Green Lantern movie into this continuity.

Yeah, like I said, I'm slowly beginning to change my views on Nolan's Batman becoming part of the JLA for a variety of reasons. It really depends on the tone that JL is going with. If it goes more serious and grounded, then I think I could live with Nolan/Bale's Batman next to Cavil and the rest. I do hope that WB decides to go with a "gritter" tone, so that I can have the best of both worlds: fun, action movies with Marvel, and more dramatic and grounded stuff with DC.

Anyway, you bring up a lot of good points, and I'm beginning to agree with you.

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

Oh for the love of god just call the superherohype forum police why don't you....

Call for you on line 2.

but seriously, you're right, It's really not that serious. It's not like you started talking about Notre Dame hockey, right?

 

[Dusty_Lane]

I do hope that WB decides to go with a "gritter" tone, so that I can have the best of both worlds: fun, action movies with Marvel, and more dramatic and grounded stuff with DC.

I've said this all along. It gives people a choice.

 

[Dusty_Lane]

Here is my propsal of one possible way that the Nolanverse could be made to tie into Justice League.

I would like to present one idea on how TDKR could connect to a Justice League film. Imagine a scenario that takes place about three years after TDKR. Let's say off camera Bruce Wayne has returned to Gotham after being presumed dead.....much the same as he did in Begins. With the faithful Alfred at his side, Wayne has once again taken up residence in his family's estate which is now "The Thomas...and Martha Wayne Orphanage". This time around we have a much more optimistic Bruce Wayne who's found a purpose in life and is following in his father's footsteps has a humaritian for the city. Much the same way Thomas Wayne was a doctor in the city, Bruce could be the headmaster of the orphanage. Though not the exact same set up it sort of channels the spirit of Bruce's characterization at the end of Mark Waid's "Kingdom Come." Now, the world has changed somewhat since the end of TDKR. An alien now walks among us, but one that's gained acceptance as the earth's protector. Then one day that same alien protector visits the Wayne orphanage as a guest speaker.....the alien people have come to know as Superman.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

It would be possible to do something like that. I think Bruce's ending in Kingdom Come is better than the one given in The Dark Knight Rises. However, I think there needs to be an epilogue to Man of Steel that:

A) Links the Man of Steel series to the Dark Knight series

B) Establishes the rest of the world, tonally

I saw one example of a potentially 5 minute epilogue, that takes place roughly 6 months after TDKR/MOS. Robin is operating as a vigilante in Gotham, and reports to Gordon, who refers to him as Robin to which he remarks he "needs a better name", Gordon says he's not entirely needed, that the legend left by Bruce is inspiring people, that other vigilantes are appearing around the country, each with their own urban legends about them. Robin replies that this period is just an extension of his training, and there is something worse coming, and they'll all need his help. The camera follows someone from behind walking through a European city, he sits down, it's Henry Cavill's Clark and he says "Mr. [oh, lets say] Malone, is it?" to which we see Christian Bale saying "Please, call me Bruce".

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

But the biggest issue is if the quality of the movie would suffer as a result. What if The Avengers had to explain who every member was before it got on with anything? I mean, it couldn't even fully explain how Thor had even GOTTEN there. A Justice League movie with no build-up films has to explain how all of these heroes inhabit the same universe, it has to introduce their personalities and their power-set. It has to do the work of a bunch of individual films, PLUS tell an interesting. original story. That's a ridiculously tall order.

I would argue that Avengers did explain who each member was.

Even people who didn't watch the prior movies can get from the dialogue in the Avengers that Iron Man is a "genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist" who survives because of the shrapnel in his chest, Cap is a super-soldier from ww2, Banner tried to turn himself into Cap via Gamma radiation (but became the Hulk), Thor is a demi-god from Asgard, and Black-Widow/Hawk-eye are Shield Agents with shameful pasts.

That's all people needed for this movie.

I'd argue that JL could do the same.

 

[Zionite1]

needing to explain the origins is not an issue.The JL movie doesn't need to explain the origins-simply do it incredibles style-introduce the audience to world filled with superheroes and theyll accept it as they did with incredibles.
The REAL issues of no buildup were listed in the first post of the thread.