Justice League: self contained continuity, or epic crossover?

[jmc]

I got nothing wrong if people like the whole interconnected universe thing because frankly that's all they've ever known, but I'm of the opinion the characters would be better served, both on film, comic and in other medium, if they were to kept separate. I believe DC needs to reboot their entire line of characters and streamline everything down so that every character inherits it's own universe. If there has to be a 'team up' universe, have it as a second JL only option for those who want it and leave the individual characters to do their own thing. And I don't care what anyone says, some characters that don't deserve it are gonna get short changed in a team up film, it'll probably happen in Avengers, it'll happen in a JL film.

 

[KRIM]

I got nothing wrong if people like the whole interconnected universe thing because frankly that's all they've ever known

As opposed to...? They've been exposed to the only two choices there are. Character A in their own self-contained universe, and Character A in a team ensemble. For the most part people have responded favorably to both. The only possible alternative is not having the character at all... but you can't address something that doesn't exist. Your insinuation that fans have been indoctrinated is misguided, but also factually incorrect.

but I'm of the opinion the characters would be better served, both on film, comic and in other medium, if they were kept separate.

That's just stating the obvious. But to reiterate -- ensemble. It's not about the individual. Objectively speaking, no one should be demanding any more of a character than what they should serve according to each story.

 

[jmc]

As opposed to...? They've been exposed to the only two choices there are. Character A in their own self-contained universe, and Character A in a team ensemble. For the most part people have responded favorably to both. The only possible alternative is not having the character at all... but you can't address something that doesn't exist. Your insinuation that fans have been indoctrinated is misguided, but also factually incorrect.

Geez talk about blowing things out of proportion. Indoctrinated? Sheesh. I was referring to people knowing that the DC characters have been interconnecting for decades and can see why people want to see that on screen.

That's just stating the obvious. But to reiterate -- ensemble. It's not about the individual. Objectively speaking, no one should be demanding any more of a character than what they should serve according to each story.

And I believe each character is too good to be relegated to being part of an ensemble.

 

[KRIM]

Geez talk about blowing things out of proportion. Indoctrinated? Sheesh. I was referring to people knowing that the DC characters have been interconnecting for decades and can see why people want to see that on screen.

"It's all they know" is a common expression to disregard the concept of choice. Given the subject matter of commercial properties being marketed and mass produced to a demographic, indoctrination is not at all an incorrect term. Had you left it as a matter of preference, rather than misguided reverence, I wouldn't have brought it up.

And I believe each character is too good to be relegated to being part of an ensemble.

That's all well and good. But to beat the dead horse once more, that's not being objective to telling a story. That is trivial, outside baggage. JL being an extension (or spin-off if you prefer) of other franchises does not mean it holds obligation to them. There isn't a single credible artist who would agree the maximum potential of a character supersedes the content and direction of a narrative.

 

[J.Howlett]

If what Snyder and Nolan says is true, about their characters not being in JL, what other options does Robinov have?

I would assume that Robinov, Nolan, Snyder, and Johns are on the same page when it comes to the DC properties for the future. 3 of the 4 have specifically stated that their characters belong to their own universe...yet, here comes the President of WB saying their doing a JL film by 2013.

Could all of this be smoke and mirrors? I mean, Robinov can't screw this up. Potter's not in his back pocket anymore after this summer.

If I'm him, I continue on as originally planned; multiple DC characters have their own franchises (including a new Batman) without any crossover.

You could ride 4 or 5 DC characters for 12 years with that model and not have to do what Marvel's doing. Man of Steel Trilogy. Lantern Trilogy. Flash Trilogy. New Batman Trilogy. An Aquaman film. A Wonder Woman film. That's fourteen films right there.

I'm thinking a lot of this has to do with the perception of time. Meaning, I think a lot of the people in the industry feel that the bubble on comic book films is about to burst, just as the DVD bubble has burst. If that's the case, I can totally understand the need to do at least one JL film, even if it doesn't share continuity with the other DC properties on film.

I can also understand the need to do Batman all over again. There was just no way that WB/DC was going to let Batman sit after Nolan delivers a definitive ending to his trilogy...to his story. It shouldn't surprise anyone that Batman's going back to the drawing board with a new aesthetic after Nolan's pictures. I'd call WB crazy if they did let Batman sit for a long while.

I'm sure they'll come up with a happy compromise between what news things that they want to do with the character vs. what Nolan established.

 

[jmc]

''It's all they know'' is a common expression to disregard the concept of choice. Given the subject matter of commercial properties being marketed and mass produced to a demographic, indoctrination is not at all an incorrect term. Had you left it as a matter of preference, rather than misguided reverence, I wouldn't have brought it up.

Tell you what, interpret it however the hell you want, I've got betting things to be discussing.

That's all well and good. But to beat the dead horse once more, that's not being objective to telling a story. That is trivial, outside baggage. JL being an extension (or spin-off if you prefer) of other franchises does not mean it holds obligation to them. There isn't a single credible artist who would agree the maximum potential of a character supersedes the content and direction of a narrative.

It's my opinion that these characters with their vast mythologies are wasted in an ensemble film. That's as definitive as I can get. Don't agree? Fine, more power to you.

 

[jmc]

If what Snyder and Nolan says is true, about their characters not being in JL, what other options does Robinov have?

I would assume that Robinov, Nolan, Snyder, and Johns are on the same page when it comes to the DC properties for the future. 3 of the 4 have specifically stated that their characters belong to their own universe...yet, here comes the President of WB saying their doing a JL film by 2013.

Could all of this be smoke and mirrors? I mean, Robinov can't screw this up. Potter's not in his back pocket anymore after this summer.

If I'm him, I continue on as originally planned; multiple DC characters have their own franchises (including a new Batman) without any crossover.

You could ride 4 or 5 DC characters for 12 years with that model and not have to do what Marvel's doing. Man of Steel Trilogy. Lantern Trilogy. Flash Trilogy. New Batman Trilogy. An Aquaman film. A Wonder Woman film. That's fourteen films right there.

I'm thinking a lot of this has to do with the perception of time. Meaning, I think a lot of the people in the industry feel that the bubble on comic book films is about to burst, just as the DVD bubble has burst. If that's the case, I can totally understand the need to do at least one JL film, even if it doesn't share continuity with the other DC properties on film.

I can also understand the need to do Batman all over again. There was just no way that WB/DC was going to let Batman sit after Nolan delivers a definitive ending to his trilogy...to his story. It shouldn't surprise anyone that Batman's going back to the drawing board with a new aesthetic after Nolan's pictures. I'd call WB crazy if they did let Batman sit for a long while.

I'm sure they'll come up with a happy compromise between what news things that they want to do with the character vs. what Nolan established.

Part of me wonders if his comments were a bit of a spur of the moment brain explosion. Harry Potter is coming to an end meaning that they'll no longer have a guaranteed cash cow, one wonders if they've actually had a contingency for life after HP.

 

[KRIM]

It's my opinion that these characters with their vast mythologies are wasted in an ensemble film. That's as definitive as I can get. Don't agree? Fine, more power to you.

If we've gone this far in the discussion and you've literally misinterpreted my entire position still, not much more I can do. This isn't about a character's potential, nor does it have to do with your opinion of it. I can assure you, I'm not losing sleep over it as that's not my business.

All I'm saying is in the context of any given narrative, it is irrelevant as the character always serves the story. Whether said potential is reached is up to the story.

 

[jmc]

If we've gone this far in the discussion and you've literally misinterpreted my entire position still, not much more I can do. This isn't about a character's potential, nor does it have to do with your opinion of it. I can assure you, I'm not losing sleep over it as that's not my business.

All I'm saying is in the context of any given narrative, it is irrelevant as the character always serves the story. Whether said potential is reached is up to the story.

I haven't misinterpret you, in fact I agree 100% that a character can be made to fit in with the narrative of the story and serve said story. But I don't believe these particular characters warrant such translation for the reasons I've already stated.

 

[Timstuff]

I get the feeling Robinov is simply having Avengers envy.

He's being like a kid who sees another kid down the street with a new bike, and instead of saving up his money to get a bike that's as good or better at the right time, he impulsively uses the money he currently has to buy a much cheaper bike and then tries to fool himself into thinking it's just as good as the one the other kid has.

 

[J.Howlett]

I wouldn't say he has envy but it's inevitable that he has to at least THINK about JL...considering what Marvel's doing.

Honestly, I don't see any decisions being made until the returns and reaction comes in for the Avengers. I think it's only then that WB/DC makes a move.

 

[Timstuff]

Green Lantern and Avengers are going to be key in deciding what to do. If Green Lantern is popular, then WB may decide it's worth putting the actual stars of the solo movies together. If Avengers bombs, maybe it's a sign that no-one wants team up movies except for the fanboys in the first place. This summer in particular has a lot riding on it, because if some nightmarish reason Thor, Captain America, and Green Lantern all bomb it could derail both Marvel and DC's plans in a big, ugly way.

Let's hope that doesn't happen, because I want to see a Justice League movie and solo pics for Flash and Wonder Woman, and I want them done RIGHT!

 

[Shawkur]

I dont understand why there seems to be the presumption that WB couldnt possibly pull off the continuity between DC movie franchises like Marvel has, so far I think the connectivity between the Marvel movies has come across fairly ham-fisted, could easily be improved on, and its its still very early to be able to tell anything either way. I also never understood why people cry "rip-off" any time one company follows the other in carry over a universal comic concept into a new media, if neither company holds the trademark for the concept or the new media what is being ripped off? Some things are just no-brainers no matter who "did it first".

Also, if I can give a word in favor of "collective continuity", forget about the Batmans and Supermans, think about how characters even as well-known as Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, ect. can go years between holding their own series. If DC werent able to gauge the current popularity of those characters by appearances in other books or use that to keep the characters fresh in readers minds, why would they ever take a chance on giving them a new series? The same could hold true in the movies, appearances in ensemble films can convince the studios that there is enough interest to invest in solo movies.

 

[J.Howlett]

Tim,

Problem is, Bale's not going to do JL either way. He's done after Rises...so the notion of having the "real" Batman in the JL doesn't work.

He's going to be completely new whether he has a lead up film to JL or he gets re-introduced in the JL film.

No matter how you slice it, Bale's not going to be in it.

 

[MadVillainy]

I love Bale as Batman but I knew as everyone did that Bale wouldnt be Batman forever. There will be Batman after Bale. Making a new Batman a year after Bale most likely leaves....eh not that good of an idea imo

But I was always prepared not to have Bale in a JL movie

 

[Asteroid-Man]

If they had decided to crossover, I will say this; Nolan's Batman would NOT fit well in the same universe as the GL we are getting in a couple of months - Superman might, but certainly not Green Lantern.

 

[Willi Berg]

If they make Flash and Wonder Woman solo movies after this, will they use the same Flash and WW actors from the JL movie?

If they do, then some actors in the solo movies will be the same ones used in the JL movie, and yet others, like Batman and Superman, would be different.

 

[Micromind]

Independent Stand alone Movies Universe for Batman

Independent Stand alone Movies Universe for Superman

Shared DC Universe for GL, Flash, WW and a JLA movie that exists in it plus some GL sequels a WW movie and Flash movie spinoffs from the JLA.

 

[Micromind]

By that logic, can the members of the Justice League even be considered the same characters that exist in their solo stories? In the comics and cartoons, it's not like Batman stops being Batman or Superman stops being Superman just because the exist in the same world. What exactly would shatter the fabric of DC's movies if there is one movie where where their characters team up? It's not like they can't write a Superman movie without referencing Batman just because they made a movie where Superman and Batman teamed up and it was within the same continuity. This line of thinking is certainly more shallow than the idea that they shouldn't make a separate Justice League universe that co-exists with 4 or 5 other movie universes.

A Batman in his own movie like Nolan's Batman loses importance as soon as it is reveled that there is a Superman who can solve most of the problems in an instant. For example, Joker is threatening to blow up ferries? No problem Superman takes out the bomb and saves everyone in matter of minutes.

Similarly, In a solo Superman movie, Imagine an Invasion by Zod, No problem GL Corps can take care of that, Zod threat is nullified quickly.

In a shared DC Universe, I Think that most of the Superheroes will be powered down but Batman will be marginally powered up by giving him more high Tech weapons, a Team like Oracle, Nightwing, and inclusion of Deadman, Looker and other friends (Dr. Leslie Thompkins, Man-Bat etc.) so that he can use all his skills, resources and team of friends to help JL.

IMO. but I maybe wrong.

 

[Zionite]

First I have to say that Wb is **** for it taking them this long to realise justt how much Marvel will kick their asses with Avengers.Now they wanna rush out a Jl movie.No,no no.Unless they wish to permanently ruin Wb s name they should take their time.
I also wanna call them out on the big mistake they made with Smallville.Had they insisted that Smallville follow canon a little more closely(no superboy/girl,no Clana drama and Clark is 1st public superhero) as well as allowing Batman,Wonderwoman to show up in the show no one one would be complaining for them to relaease a Justice League movvie based off smallville.Why didnt they?becsue they were afraid allowing Batman and WW in Sv would affect the movie franchises.Grow some balls WB.And some pair ofe eyes.you should have been able to see smallvilles potentials.
And the Ironic thing about it all is that they are going to release WW in the movies whilst a tv show is going on-all because of despearation not courage.
Oh and Robinov waiting for a Jl movie to come out before deciding to release Flash is a stupid idea.The movie audience will only at the time be familar with Supes,Bats and Gl.Thats not enough.Releaee Flash before the Jl movie.Get people excited about seeing a team up with this heroes-even if its not in the same continuity.
Anyway I have ideas on how they could approoach it-as a standalone or epic crossover
Standalone continuity Ideas
In other for a standalone to work it has to be seen for what it is- a standalone.A different continuity with the same characters. And no diff actors isn’t enough.They would have to change the Setting.My idea is that they set the Justice league be set as a period piece during the worldwar 2 era.
The team should be identical to Pre-crisis Jsa. With that clear continuity, the viewers wont try to connect the Solo films together and judge the Jsa for what it is.

Problem with Standalone continuity
1.Having different versions of characters on the Big screen might divide the audience and one version might suffer more than the other. For example if the audience loves Syders Superman they might not be interested in seeing a different one in JL and that could screw the Jl over.This could work vice versa
2.The Film might confuse the audience as the origins of these version of heroes will obviously be diff from the ones in the familiar solo movies

Actor suggesting-For this one I have no specific actor except for Superman-Brandon Routh

Epic crossover ideas
It goes without saying now that Batman and Superman cannot take place in an Epic crossover for JL. At least until they are both rebooted and find their feet. Flash and GL can however crossover though as we have been told they are in the Same universe. Having them being played by diff actors should not be that big of a problem-Flash and GL wear masks-So they simply need actors that resemble the ones in the Flash and Gl movies and masks should take care of the rest.
The lineup for this one would be-Wonderwoman,Greenlantern,Flash,Aquaman,,Black Canary.Gl and flash have already been introduced to the audience via Solo movies so they will the main attraction for the movie.The movie should simply introduce Wonderwoman as an ambassador for Themyscra who has powers,Aquaman either as a King of Antlantis or a Metahuman who knows nothing about his origins.Black canary would be introduced as a Government agent.Simple yet effective way to introduce the charactrers.If the movie is successful Wonderwoman,Aquaman can have their solo movies as spin offs.
Superman and Batman can be thrown in the sequal BUT their absence from the first movie must be explained in the the JL movies and thru their solo movies.Their absence can be explained as maybe superman going to space for a mission and batman busy in Gotham and the solo movies would eflect tha.Once the solo movies are free of their actors then we can have a pproper Jl lineup with Superman and Batman in the sequel

An idea for both epic crossover and standalone continuity
Simply set the Jl movie in an apocalyptic future.This could be seen as the Future timeline of the Dc cinematic universe or an alternate universe.Which ever one it is, this idea forces Wb to use older and conveniently diff actors from the solo movies

 

[Raiden]

I wouldn't say he has envy but it's inevitable that he has to at least THINK about JL...considering what Marvel's doing.

Honestly, I don't see any decisions being made until the returns and reaction comes in for the Avengers. I think it's only then that WB/DC makes a move.

The problem is that Avengers will come out in 2012, and if WB wants to have a JL movie in 2013 they'd have to start pre-production right now, and not after Avengers has become a certified hit. If they cast the actors and hire the directors, then discovered that Avengers didn't live up to expectation, will WB then pull the plug right away?

 

[Shawkur]

I wouldnt get too hung up on the fact that the are floating a 2013 release date just yet, they announce these things to build excitement for the project and its not nearly as exciting if they tell us we have to wait until, say, 2015. Dont these things almost always get pushed back?

 

[Timstuff]

Tim,

Problem is, Bale's not going to do JL either way. He's done after Rises...so the notion of having the "real" Batman in the JL doesn't work.

He's going to be completely new whether he has a lead up film to JL or he gets re-introduced in the JL film.

No matter how you slice it, Bale's not going to be in it.

That was pretty obvious when Bale said that TDKR would be his last one. There's no reason they cannot introduce the next Batman actor in Justice League and then use him the next Batman solo film, though, or why they can't use the previous Batman movies for his backstory. JL would be a great way to transition from Bale and warm people up to Batman existing in a world that has more sci-fi influences.

There are tons of great Batman characters who Nolan wouldn't have used because they aren't scientifically grounded enough, so sooner or later it was inevitable that the Batman franchise was going to evolve away from "Nolanism" eventually. Might as well start with JL, but there's no reason why Batman himself has to be rebooted yet again when they can just show that his methods are evolving to keep up with an evolving world.

 

[BH/HHH]

I can understand Christian Bale's Batman not been involved because he's done after the third film and is getting on abit but I see no reason for Henry Cavill not to be Superman.

I'm not against them casting new actors in the roles to be honest but I don't think they should do it so soon after Man of Steel. If Man of Steel makes a mint they're for sure gonna get a sequel made with Cavill as Superman. Will having a different actor playing the part in JLA a good idea or bad? I dont know but as a Superman fan I wouldn't complain at having Superman on screen in two series.

 

[Zordan]

It should be conntected whit other movies. Bale should be Batman. Batman should be leader.