Killing the Golden Goose -

[PhotoJones]

Varient, you've never repsonded to anything intelligently, so don't pretend.

 

[Varient]

Varient, you've never repsonded to anything intelligently, so don't pretend.

I rest my case.

You simply can't stop until you get it out of your system.

 

[PhotoJones]

There's nothing to get out. If you think I'm trying to make you look stupid, you do that all by yourself.

 

[Not Jake]

why did varient spell variant wrong

 

[Varient]

There's nothing to get out. If you think I'm trying to make you look stupid, you do that all by yourself.

That's nice.

 

[PhotoJones]

I know.

why did varient spell variant wrong

Whatever the reason, now's his chance to get it corrected.

 

[Varient]

why did varient spell variant wrong

SMH at yet another person who thinks that there is only one spelling for varient.

Well,... not in the mood to pull up a link Jake,.. Please yourself.

 

[Blader5489]

Speaking of killing a golden goose (I haven't been paying attention to this thread at all), Mark Bagley is reportedly moving to DC.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

After two days of argueing it in a store I can easily believe that Marvel is sacrificing their source material for more money.

You're preaching to the choir, not arguing in a valid debate with facts and logic, there is a difference. BTW, they probably want you to buy something and leave, not spend all damn day talking to them.

You point out that My prediction post was "Bad" when more than half of it came true - whatever.

None of it came true , what the hell are you talking about?

I find it - depressing - that I'm called "self-centered" for having an opinion and moron for it differing from yours.

You're self-centered because EVERYTIME you don't like Marvel's comic books it's someone has something to do with their relative quality and not your personal taste. Don't like it, don't buy it.

What is it with those of you who won't read the question but say instead -
"But they are hiring the best"

They are.

"But they are making money in comics"

Which is a good indication that new readers enjoy the current crop of stories.

"You just don't like the changes."

Yeah, I got that part.

As for "f***ing up characters:

I can point to more than twenty posters,.. MOST OF THE responses here from some of them who if we waste time digging has basically USED THOSE WORDS in ref to their favorites,... so if you are truly tired of hearing it,.. take it to your peers,.. I've not been saying more than when a character in a comic has done something out of character.

You really think during the eighties it was "in character" for DareDevil to all of the sudden be a Ninja? To go from a meery, sarcastic swashbuckler who fought colorful criminals, to a brooding, angry night avenger who fought the underworld and mafia? Was it "in character" for Claremont to all of the sudden write Charles Xavier as a Civil Rights activist who lead a team of adults when Stan Lee had used X-Men, up until then, as a metaphor for angsty teenaged students? Or maybe it was "in character" for Romita to decide that Peter Parker go from an unpopular geeky, goof, to an affable, handsome, everyman?

Comics go through changes all the time. Fans retroactively impose their view of a character as if it were sacrosanc. Guess what? Your idea of Spider-Man was nothing like Stan Lee's original conception, it's probably based more on Macfarlane's early 90's version...who was "out of character" in relation to the original. Your idea of Fantastic Four, I GAR-UN-TEE is a lot closer to Walt Simonson's or John Bryne's late 80s incarnation than any of the earlier books. And if any title, say like Spider-Man, decided to go back a tell stories closer to the original conception (like BND is) you'd complain about that too.

 

[Varient]

You're preaching to the choir, not arguing in a valid debate with facts and logic, there is a difference. BTW, they probably want you to buy something and leave, not spend all damn day talking to them.

(Chuckle)
I'm behind the counter taking their money,... they come in TO argue.

None of it came true , what the hell are you talking about?

Not gonna pull up the thread but over half the things I said they'd have to change - They have changed.
I still expect a reboot,... mostly because of the stuff in Excaliber and Exiles.

You're self-centered because EVERYTIME you don't like Marvel's comic books it's someone has something to do with their relative quality and not your personal taste. Don't like it, don't buy it.

(Raised eyebrow)
Everytime?
Ah,.. I understand,... if you complain about daredevil changing in a manner you don't like,.. It's a Quality issue,... If I have anything to say about Marvel strip mining an idea - It's about my personal prefs,...

And I do it EVERYTIME.

Got it.

Comics go through changes all the time. Fans retroactively impose their view of a character as if it were sacrosanc. Guess what? Your idea of Spider-Man was nothing like Stan Lee's original conception, it's probably based more on Macfarlane's early 90's version...who was "out of character" in relation to the original. Your idea of Fantastic Four, I GAR-UN-TEE is a lot closer to Walt Simonson's late 80s incarnation than any of the earlier books. And if any title, say like Spider-Man, decided to go back a tell stories closer to the original conception (like BND is) you'd complain about that too.

my "idea" of spiderman was the Stan Lee version - The GEEK - NERD smart enough to build webshooters in his room and out think his opponents as he learned about his powers.

Not the whiner in the Ultimate Universe or the idiot who after spending 40 years protecting his Secret Idenity for the sake of his Aunt is able to ditch it on National TV after a five minute pep talk from Stark.

Not quite sure where you get my view on the Fantastic Four since I've never said - But I have said many times what "my" version of Spiderman was.
(Usually while tearing down the Ultimate Universe.)

V.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

my "idea" of spiderman was the Stan Lee version - The GEEK - NERD smart enough to build webshooters in his room and out think his opponents as he learned about his powers.

So you want them to go back to drawing Spider-Man like this, right?

-And I suppose you also want him to be a social pariah, because Romita Sr. was the one who influenced Stan into writing Peter as a more romantically savvy teenager who got bad grades and struggled in school like everyone else.
-And I suppose you also want him to be single, because Stan Lee was one of the people involved in Gwen Stacy's death because "Spider-Man was getting too close to her, and they didn't want him to marry". They thought it would age him.
-Stan Lee also wrote a decidedly different Mary Jane. She dated, but was very b*tchy too Harry Osbourne. She was also basically their rendition of a beatnick.

Oh, and I suppose you'll love BND, because Quesada basically stated his whole point with that storyline was the return to classic Stan Lee-esque stories.

 

[Varient]

So you want them to go back to drawing Spider-Man like this, right?
-And I suppose you also want him to be a social pariah, because Romita Sr. was the one who influenced Stan into writing Peter as a more romantically savvy teenager who got bad grades and struggled in school like everyone else.
-And I suppose you also want him to be single, because Stan Lee was one of the people involved in Gwen Stacy's death because "Spider-Man was getting too close to her, and they didn't want him to marry". They thought it would age him.
-Stan Lee also wrote a decidedly different Mary Jane. She dated, but was very b*tchy too Harry Osbourne. She was also basically their rendition of a beatnick.

Oh, and I suppose you'll love BND, because Quesada basically stated his whole point with that storyline was the return to classic Stan Lee-esque stories.

I think you are trying to compare someone who changes over time and someone who changes overnight.

You also want to try to underline your point by going back to an earlier art type?

Peter was never a social pariah,.. he was the CLASSIC nerd/Geek,... Add to that being as socially inept like MOST teenagers are at some point.

This is why folk could relate to him.

I don't want him dumbed down to make some comic readers feel better about themselves - so the Romita change to make him struggle in any capacity, (Though I remember it was more on grades from Missing courses than his intelligence.), I didn't like - that but I accepted it as an an attempt to let the character grow.

My point is I don't like OUT OF CHARACTER CHANGES just like you apparently didn't like with Daredevil,... That "The Baseline" Peter Parker / Spiderman I speak of, (That I KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND the difference), Is not based on Marital status or who drew him fifty years ago.

My Spiderman:
(And please don't tell me what I'm supposed to like based on who drew him.)
Is an intelligent person - genius level in at least three diciplines, who was taught the harsh lesson of responsibility by the death of a loved one and who is canoned to spend his life trying to make up for his one major mistake.

Powers and Abilities appear to be based on Spiders - Period.

His primary concern prior to Civil war was caring for his loved ones, This included not sharing his secret Identity with anyone or losing his mask every five minutes,...

EVERYTHING else if done in a timely manner IS LIFE.

This includes Job, School, Girlfriends, (Even social outcasts get laid), Marriage, divorce, and death.

Mary Jane didn't "suddenly" go from Beatnik to intelligent woman,....

Spidermans staying power until recently was in the FACT that he went through change at the pace you'd expect a person to go thru life,.. He went thru High school and College, He had more than two "girlfriends", he got married,...

I DON'T WANT them to "reset" Spiderman - but they are going to because while I agree that it should be back to the "core" person,.. I don't think "core" means all that window dressing you were typing about.

Just Like Ben Grimm has Always been a "regular guy" a jock, a pilot, a hero because he looks outside himself -

Peter Parker is a studious, serious, striving to be a responsible person WHO CARES.

Question: Would you have accepted Daredevils change if they had dragged him thru the mud to tibet and taught him to be a ninja against his will instead of the massive retconning they did with Stick and co?

If you take ANY character and, "IN LINE", with who they are supposed to be ,"make changes", to how they appear/operate,... I got no beef with that.

But,......... you have Peter expose himself,
Strange not saving himself in a falling jet,
Black Bolt losing where there is little chance of property damage,
The Xmen not learn from past dealings with people who try to kill them,

Then at the least I'm going to grumble.

V.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I think you are trying to compare someone who changes over time and someone who changes overnight.

Most changes are overnight. I really think you just have this rosey vision of comics that comes from never reading the old ones in the first place. Within the span of ONE ISSUE when Romita Sr. took over Peter Parker went from a social pariah who everyone thought was the world's biggest jerk, to a sweet and sensitive guy who was friends with most of his classmates...including Flash Thompson. IT TOOK ONE ISSUE for Frank Miller to overhaul DareDevil into a ninja and to reboot, entirely, the origin of Batman. IT TOOK ONE ISSUE to change the X-Men from a waspy team of teenagers to a multi-ethnic team of adults with an entirely different theme. IT TOOK ONE ISSUE to make the Avengers Captain America, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye. THESE CHANGES WERE NOT GRADUAL as you so imply. When writers change, so do the comics. There isn't this layover period of development you seem to imply.

You also want to try to underline your point by going back to an earlier art type?

Peter was never a social pariah

Yes he was . When Harry Osbourne and Gwen Stacy were first introduced they H-A-T-E-D him, and he was, by definition a social pariah. It was the character Stan Lee was known for.

.. he was the CLASSIC nerd/Geek,... Add to that being as socially inept like MOST teenagers are at some point.

It had NOTHING to do with his social faults. Again, showing you've never actually read Stan Lee's Spider-Man.

This is why folk could relate to him.

I don't want him dumbed down to make some comic readers feel better about themselves - so the Romita change to make him struggle in any capacity, (Though I remember it was more on grades from Missing courses than his intelligence.), I didn't like - that but I accepted it as an an attempt to let the character grow.

My point is I don't like OUT OF CHARACTER CHANGES just like you apparently didn't like with Daredevil,... That "The Baseline" Peter Parker / Spiderman I speak of

There is no such thing in comics. Unless you mean his name is Peter Parker and he is also known as Spider-Man as being the baseline.

(That I KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND the difference), Is not based on Marital status or who drew him fifty years ago.

Yeah, it is actually. Who draws and writes a character is VERY important to determining how he/she will act or be received. Mary Jane had a huge overhaul right before their marriage because the writer did not like her character as it stood.

My Spiderman:
(And please don't tell me what I'm supposed to like based on who drew him.)
Is an intelligent person - genius level in at least three diciplines, who was taught the harsh lesson of responsibility by the death of a loved one and who is canoned to spend his life trying to make up for his one major mistake.

Still has this.

Powers and Abilities appear to be based on Spiders - Period.

Still has this

His primary concern prior to Civil war was caring for his loved ones, This included not sharing his secret Identity with anyone or losing his mask every five minutes,...

I can think of about ten or twelve times he put his identity in jeopardy when Stan Lee wrote him...so, wrong again.
EVERYTHING else if done in a timely manner IS LIFE.

This includes Job, School, Girlfriends, (Even social outcasts get laid)

Not according to Stan Lee/Ditko. Romita was the one who painted him as a romantic, which has stuck with the character until his marriage

Mary Jane didn't "suddenly" go from Beatnik to intelligent woman,....

Yes.SHE.DID. Go read the "Death of Gwen Stacy" a look at how sudden the new writer changes her character. Because it was literally in the span of one issue.

Spidermans staying power until recently was in the FACT that he went through change at the pace you'd expect a person to go thru life

Nope, wrong. In fact, I bet there are very few comic readers who can say they've stuck with the character since day one, not you, certainly.

.. He went thru High school and College, He had more than two "girlfriends", he got married,...

Wrong. He went through High School. Stayed as a College student for well too long, got engaged to Gwen Stacy, she died, started dating Mary Jane, quit college, got a job, quit, went back to college because they felt he had gotten too far away from the original concept, got out, got married, was replaced by a clone and aged to appear to be about thirty, lost his wife, got her back, lost his aunt, got her back....does this remotely sound normal to you.

Question: Would you have accepted Daredevils change if they had dragged him thru the mud to tibet and taught him to be a ninja against his will instead of the massive retconning they did with Stick and co?

Stick was a MASSIVE retcon. Considering originally he was trained by a boxing coach whom we knew by name.

If you take ANY character and, "IN LINE", with who they are supposed to be ,"make changes", to how they appear/operate,... I got no beef with that.

DareDevil was the son of a Boxer who went behind his father's back and trained with his boxing equipment/partners. Considering they changed he PLACEMENT of his father's death in his own life, I'd say again this is what we'd call a MAJOR change.

But,......... you have Peter expose himself,

He's exposed himself before...

Strange not saving himself in a falling jet,

Inconsistent power levels. OH MY NO...comics must have gone to pot now

Black Bolt losing where there is little chance of property damage

To a more powerful opponent (I can't believe I just had to support Pak's Hulk).

The Xmen not learn from past dealings with people who try to kill them,

Letting Magneto lead the team in the eighties...but I seriously have no clue what point you're trying to make here. God.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Beyond belief. His ideas and thoughts on Superman are mind-numbing.

What are they, exactly?

 

[PhotoJones]

What are they, exactly?

If you really want to know, you should PM Darthphere to send you the link to the interview where Millar reveals his thoughts and ideas on Superman. Basically, his view of Superman is making him seem more alien and less human. He feells obligated to save humans out of pity, rather then truth and justice.

 

[roach]

Hey V dont let these guys get you down. I have stopped reading comics because of the things Marvel was doing.

 

[Varient]

Hey V dont let these guys get you down. I have stopped reading comics because of the things Marvel was doing.

They're just trying to bait me.

The points I've brought up have been brought up by others on this board w/o as much heat put against them.

I think I'm supposed to get more than irritated at having to plow thru the BS to get good info.

Not going to happen.

V.

 

[Varient]

U need to make up your mind.
I'm reading you saying that the changes came "overnight" or took "way too long" in the same post.

You argue about Mary jane Watson being TOLD what kind of person she was as far as Peter was concerned and her response as some sort of unrealistic immediate response,..

(I'm thinking that MOST people on the planet would pause and reconsider their behavior when hit with the death of someone they know AND having someone they thought they knew giving them crap over how they act,...

But her response was "too fast for you"?
(LOL - all she did was close the door and stay with a grieving Peter Parker after he told her how shallow she was.)

Nah.

We have issue 15 in the store and reprints,.. and the essentials and Spiderman was not a pariah as much as you'd like to prove your point.

It reads like you allow some heroes to change along life lines, (Superman grows up,.. goes to metropolis, gets a job as a reporter while playing superman),... But can't accept Spiderman going from Highschool to getting a job to going to college while playing Spiderman.

(chuckle)

You need to say I have both a rosy view or didn't read these comics because YOU don't agree with my spin on them AND U can't make up your mind as far as it was "immediate change" or "took too long?"


Can't help you.

Oh,... and where did Spiderman PURPOSLY EXPOSE HIS IDENITY ON NATIONAL TV before? Heck,.. where did he stand in front of a bunch of reports and voluntarily unmask?

I'm only aware of two cases where he was unmasked and the people who did it didn't believe he was spiderman,.. and one case where he was knocked out and unmasked and the same routine of "it couldn't be parker,... and that famous unmasking and being dragged behind the goblin Glider.

You won't find any case where he stepped up in front of media and "just did it".



V.

 

[Kitsune]

why did varient spell variant wrong

It's a variant spelling

 

[Varient]

It's a variant spelling

(chuckle)

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Hey V dont let these guys get you down. I have stopped reading comics because of the things Marvel was doing.

How long ago did you stop reading?I still check from time to time,to see if anything is worth looking into.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor, Captain America, and The Immortal Iron Fist are all worth looking into.

 

[Not Jake]

It's a variant spelling

DURR ITS A VARIANT SPELLING HAHAHA.

 

[Not Jake]

and please do get me a link Varient.

 

[Varient]

Thats nice Jake,.. you have the same resources I do,... I can't be bothered when ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is GOOGLE my version of the word.

Peace out.