The Dark Knight Let's debate various aspects of TDK

[StorminNorman]

After a less the successful start, we are here to celebrate the return of one of the Hypes greatest gems, Keyser Sushi.

To celebrate his return, and the intelligent discussion that comes with it: we bring you the insights of Mr. Sushi and myself, as we open up this thread we ask and beg for your insight as well. True intelligence comes from the discussion of thoughts and ideas, and if nothing else, we pride ourselves on our intelligence.

So we will start off reposting our thoughts on the various issues of The Dark Knight.

I hope you enjoy.

Reverend Sushi:Batman Begins did almost everything right, as far as I'm concerned. The shakiest bit is a question of scale: The script could have been heavier, bigger in scope, the character moments could have been more intimate. But Batman was a franchise that was almost dead after the previous few outings, and I think Nolan felt he had to strip it way back to basics to make it work. WB was probably interested in putting less money down and testing the growth rate on the investment, as it were.

People complained about the one-liners and the sort of screenwriting 101 methods like repetition of certain key lines for impact. But these things are not really bad writing, they're just easy writing. And while Katie Holmes was the weakest link in the Begins cast, I don't think she was as bad as most people made her out to be. The only scene of hers that embarrassed me at all was the one where the cop took her word for it that she was a DA. If she'd had a badge in that hand, my problems with that scene would have gone away.

Pope Norman I: Like many here I walked into the theater of Batman Begins and didn't know exactly what to expect. SuperheroHype was foreign to me - it might as well not have existed. "Jett" was the misspelling of a fast plane. Christian Bale was a name I did not know.

In fact all I knew coming into that showing was that this was a movie about Batman, my childhood hero, and the story about how he began.
I did know a bit about Batman, however. While I grew up on the Batman movies, it was the Batman Cartoon that really caught my eye. In that cartoon I saw a character I never really saw on the screen. I always wanted to see that.

And I did. I saw a Superhero movie that was dark, yet enjoyable. A hero that was relatable, yet entertaining. I saw a city of Gotham come to life. Finally, the Batman of the cartoon was the Batman of the movie.

I watched a group of incredible actors bring to life a comic book superhero like never before. I saw the material be treated not only respectfully, but intelligently. I think my ignorance did help though. I did not know Rachel Dawes was not a comic book character (though I did know about Harvey Dent). I did not know that Ra's did not train Batman (though I did know he was a villain, and immortal). I did know, however, that this was my Batman.

I vividly remember walking out of that theater with a smile on my face. I remember going to the Books-A-Million and buying the Batman Anthology (Volume One). I remember buying Batman 89 on DVD. I remember calling my father and telling him Batman is back. I remember going back home and crusading through the Internet to find scraps of information about he sequel.

Nearly three years later, this is where I am.


Reverend Sushi: I've been a Batman fan all my life, but like you it was Begins that brought me to the Hype. I remember the first time I read these boards it was because I was hunting for a link to download a decent copy of the teaser trailer. I'd always held Ra's al Ghul as one of my favorite Batman villains - I'm a fan of the Bronze Age Batman, and Nolan's Batman is VERY Bronze Age.

All of the Batman movies have changed things about the relationships between the characters. The fact that Ra's was a little different here, or that Scarecrow was different, didn't bother me. Still doesn't. Different as they are, they'll still essentially the characters I know and I love the way they're portrayed here - because even though they're diffrent, there was nothing but respect there.


Pope Norman I:I would agree almost completely with everything you said. I do understand that on further examination, while the story was brilliant throughout the first two acts, the ending was, not unlike I Am Legend, a bit too hookey. The idea of a weapon released through the water line that you have to inhale to work has been picked apart by many people here, but honestly, unlike I Am Legend - I think that MAY be a good thing.

Of course there in lies, possibly, my biggest problem. Actually, less of a problem and more of a worry. In the end, Nolan has to remember this is a comic book movie. While I didn't see anything in Batman Begins that displayed he was not aware of this fact, many of his fans have grabbed onto the flag poll of realism and used it to explain everything from why The Joker shouldn't wear purple to why Batman's suit shouldn't be comic accurate to why Mr. Freeze should be left out.

This is a comic property and Nolan must not be afraid to treat it as such. IMO the end of Batman Begins is VERY comic booky. The epic train fight leading to the end of a plot that doesn't hold that much water if looked at through a pair of "realistic" goggles.


Reverend Sushi: I agree - to me part of the fun of Begins was that it built from a very realistic beginning into something that was almost pure comic book.
It was as though not only Batman, but the Batman Mythos, began. I've always said that introducing Joker at the end was a way of saying that all bets are off - Batman and his world have arrived.

Pope Norman I:Which is a brilliant parallel to the comics. Batman Year One - a comic book as realistic as Begins - ends with the Joker. A lot people complain that Batman Year One is a Jim Gordon story - but in reality, in the world of Batman: Year One - Gordon is the real hero. Batman is out of place in a world of simple mobsters and crooks. Batman Year One ends, however, with the Joker - and from then on out, Gotham is - out of necessity - Batman's city. The movies seem to reflect that brilliantly.


Reverend Sushi: Yeah, that's the other thing that Nolan seems to do really well: there are so many different interpretations of Batman and everybody has their favorite one. Some expect Millerbat, some prefer Golden Age Batman or Silver Age; some, like me, prefer Bronze; then there's the modern school of thought, the Jeph Loeb Batman and all that's come since. Obviously you can't have all of these at once, but Nolan did a spectacular job building a version of the Batman mythos that incorporates the best elements of all the different versions, as far as I'm concerned. The idealism of the Golden Age Batman, the Bronze Age detective, the Year One noirish tendencies, a lot of Jeph Loeb too. The only time people seem to get truly disappointed with it is when they're married to one single intepretation of the character.

 

[StorminNorman]

Rev. Sushi: So that brings us to the subject of the Joker. It's amazing how that one little bit at the end of "Begins" set us all off theorizing about how Nolan would handle the Joker - purple, no purple, white skin, not white skin, makeup, mask, scarring, no scarring, Nicholson, Hammill - and of course Bettany vs Hulme. I think we all got a bit carried away - but my God was it fun.

Heath Ledger was a seeming left-field casting choice, and while some of us embraced it, and some were skeptical, I think at this point we all pretty well agree that what we see of the Joker in the trailer is nothing less than incredible. I've always felt that this would put Heath on the mainstream radar in a huge way. I'm only disappointed that he won't be around to reap the benefits (and, sure, the inevitable annoyances) of that.

For a while when the filming was going on, all the speculation about the Joker and how he would look was going to drive me crazy. When the first images were released it took some getting used to, but what it comes down to for me - as with Ra's and Scarecrow in BB - is the fact that the core of the character is intact, and in fact, all of the visual associations we have with the character in place as well. Heath's Joker looks more like Joker than Cillian's Scarecrow looked like Scarecrow, and, arguably, more than Neeson's Ra's looked like the Ra's from the comics.

Pope Norman I: Without a doubt the Joker is not only one of my favorite comic book characters, but one of the most recognizable figures in American pop culture.

It is rare that you have a character that steals every scene he is in, no matter the medium. That is exactly what we have here. Ever since his premier, he has set himself apart from, arguably, any villain in the medium. The most popular villain in the comics, he has legacy is inarguable. Whether it is Cesar Romero and his makeup stache, Jack Nicholson and his awesomeness, Mark Hammil and his perfection, or even the barefoot Joker of The Batman - the Joker of any Bat Franchise is often just as popular as the Batman himself.

Like Batman, I can't help but think of Timm/Dini's work when I think about the Joker. Here was a villain that was greatly intelligent, incredibly ruthless and completely despicable with a disturbing sense of dark humor...yet somehow charming thanks to his incredible charisma.

It was these qualities that attracted me to Paul Bettany
It became more and more clear that the Joker we would get would differ, if only slightly, from the one I envisioned. Nolan brought a streak of anarchism to the character I normally do not initially think about when my thoughts drift to Mister J. One could argue that Nolan replaced the vain undertones of the character and molded him into a more..."punkish" being.

I have no problem with this characterization at all. In fact, I absolutely have fallen in love with everything I have seen about the way the character has been written.

Nolan had the incredibly hard task of making a character that had to match his very popular Batman in screen presence, quality and popularity. A Batman franchise with an unpopular Joker is doomed for failure (The Batman).

Nolan also had far less wiggle room with the Joker than he did with Scarecrow, Falcone and Ra's. To most people - those names meant very little. He was able to build these characters in there minds without dealing with their preconceived notions of what the character is. With the Joker, he has to create a character that is not only engaging on screen, but fits the public perception of him as well. As this board shows - opinions on the character are incredibly varied.

It's a testimate to Nolan's great talent that the reception of his character has been so universally accepted. It goes without saying that it perhaps speaks even more for the late Heath Ledger's indisputable skill.

Rev Sushi: Another way that the Joker and Batman are linked is that like Batman, the Joker has been portrayed in a number of different ways. In Batman #1, he barely smiled or laughed, but was a cold, calculating, ruthless man who announced his crimes before he committed them (or, often, after he'd committed them, but long before anybody could possibly know). Over the years he's been a prankster, a powerful criminal mastermind, a complete screwball force of anarchy, or pure, undiluted evil. Heath's portrayal seems, from what I can see, to do exactly what Bale's Batman does - to incorporate the best elements of the different interpretations into something we can nearly all love.

Pope Norman I: I must say one of the biggest compliments I can ever give Heath's Joker is that when I was watching the Prologue in IMAX, I never once though "I wish that was Paul Bettany".

Rev. Sushi: Hahaha... come to think of it, I never once thought that either. Actually every time I watch that, and the trailer, I'm amazed at how very little the Joker is in it, and yet how completely he dominates it. I keep wanting more. I've been known to watch the trailer over and over and over again wishing there'd be more to it the next time through.

 

[Luchastyle]

=\

i like the arguments that you two bring to the table. i always have. but you know this belongs in non-spoilers. and hell i'll go in there and post and all that with you guys. but these are points that have been discussed in other threads. and that's cool if you wanna wax intellectual on nolan's world in your own super sweet special thread...but it shouldn't be in this section. you know that norman.

but welcome back keyser =)

 

[StorminNorman]

=\

i like the arguments that you two bring to the table. i always have. but you know this belongs in non-spoilers. and hell i'll go in there and post and all that with you guys. but these are points that have been discussed in other threads. and that's cool if you wanna wax intellectual on nolan's world in your own super sweet special thread...but it shouldn't be in this section. you know that norman.

but welcome back keyser =)

We will be discussing Spoilers.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Thanks Norm, I feel so special now.

I'm glad we have a chance to try this again.

On with part THREE:

Pope Norman I: I would argue though, that the only changing of the Joker’s look is on par to Burton’s changes of the Penguin. It is a bigger deal, however, because this is not some third tier villain only known because of his appearance on the Adam West Batman show. This is THE JOKER. This is the most iconic, most recognized comic villain in the history of the medium. This is the Superman of the baddies. This is messing with legend.

One could ask the question “Why does it have to be explained? Do you want to see a pre-Joker fall into chemicals…AGAIN?!” I think the answer most will give you is no. I certainly don’t. I believe you, and many who share your opinion, do not fully understand the position of us “traditionalists”. Personally I prefer the Joker to not have a concrete origin – just as has had for years. His past life shouldn't have any relevance to the Joker; one reason why I dislike the idea of the Joker just having make-up. If the Joker can, at will, take off his “war paint” and see the man underneath – he never fully leaves behind his humanity. To those that would argue “this Joker is so messed up that he never WOULD take it off”, I am not inferring that Heath’s Joker would willingly – however he would never be allowed to wear it in court, in prison, in Gotham. For the Joker to ever be able to blend into society is a bad move.

Also, I think many view this change as only a “superficial change” when really its not. The fact that he is an unchangeable freak IS a major part of the character. In a way it separates him from the likes of Catwoman, Riddler, Penguin – who have to dress up to be outsiders. Jett, among others point out that he has a “white face, green hair, red lips and wears purple” (though, I would argue that it is interesting how ‘wearing purple’ is now an important characteristic of the Joker when not a year ago this very site was arguing for the Joker NOT to wear purple) and yes that is true, but the Joker’s mystique is more than just superficial.

One of the best written pieces stressing the importance of the “permawhite” of the Joker was written by an online friend of mine:

“Joker's insanity matches his physical appearance, he doesn't have to dress up to become himself, he IS what he is all the time. It's something that's not grotesque in the least, but yet it is extremely grotesque, and just damn creepy, it's not like he's albino, he has green hair and white skin, there's no way you can get away from it, it's just there.

It's why he does what he does. Much like Two-Face where the deformity is what causes the character to go over the edge. Joker was an unstable individual who dropped into a vat of chemicals, and came out looking like a clown, he lost it, his mind almost had no other choice than to revert to what he became. People argue it's MORE insane and creepy that The Ledgerer paints his face and dyes his hair. While creepy and insane, it's not even close to a guy who must look like that, who IS that image come to life, a monster.

But for I guess the sake of "it's a ****ing comic book movie", instead we get a guy who gets an easily repairable carved smile in his face and decides that makes him a clown and loses it, so he paints himself up as one. Throw water onto Ledger and it takes some of the fear away, he becomes Jeffrey Dahmer. Throw water on The Joker, he remains the same, and he'll just laugh..a lot.”

Now I understand that there are many smart people out there that disagree with me, who argue the look of the Joker isn’t all that important. They feel we should accept Nolan’s changes to the character to fit his vision of the Joker. I simply argue that I dislike the apparently popular stance that a directors vision is more important the a characters history.

I hope that, in the end, these arguments will prove to be unnecessary. I still believe that Nolan’s Joker has one more trick up his well tailored sleeve. Maybe, just maybe, there will be enough hints for fans to walk away that the Joker can not escape his clownish exterior. I pray this to be true, because Heath’s Joker looks amazing, this movie looks awe-inspiring and I would hope that Nolan shows the same respect for this Pop Culture Icon as he showed with Batman.

Reverend Sushi: In my ideal world, Joker would be permawhite. And all over. So what's the deal with Ledger's Joker, I wonder? I haven't been around a while but last I heard, the idea was that he'd left the makeup on his face to rot. It was unclear if this made him perma-white in the face or not, over time, like some kind of staining effect. I remember back in the day the suggestion that he'd used flesh-colored makeup to make himself appear normal, but I'm not at all sure that this is the case - nothing I've seen in the trailer really indicates to me that he ever looks like anything other than what we've seen - flesh-colored neck and hands, white face, hair that is green to varying degrees. I was a bit upset about the possibility for a while but once I saw the look, and saw him in action, I got over that right quick.

Honestly, as long as the hair's green, the lips are red, the face is white - I don't much care how they got that way. I think this change has less to do with "realism" as some would claim, and more to do with the need to distance this from Batman '89. Joker has never had a definitive origin and as such there's no need to stick to the one we've all come to expect. Especially if sticking to it would only hurt the perception of the film and weaken the impact of Ledger's performance.

Like I said before I'm open to different interpretations and as such as I don't mind a change here or there. I just hope that if the makeup can come off, that we never see it happen.

 

[Luchastyle]

yeah =\ i don't know man. again, i like what you guys have to say, but i gotta tell you, i don't see this lasting. unless of course, you got special permission this time. but what's to stop people from making various modified versions of this thread?

that's cool though. i have to go to sleep, but if this is here tomorrow i'll comment and wax intellectual with you guys.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

So is this a new battusi thread?

NO. Unequivocally NO. This is a thread for INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION.

i heart sushi

Another of my girls! Hello there. t:

I'm all grown up with my avvy now! Where the hizzell have you been!?

I noticed!

I've been taking some time off to get my head together. I had a rough holiday season and, uh, I thought it would be smart to get out of here for a while. It's done me a lot of good.

 

[Hunter Rider]

This thread was closed b/c i didn't clue everyone in on the fact I'd ok'd it, hell i even suggested the title, combining a welcome back thread for a popular poster with a discussion of TDK as a whole is not an issue.

If you can't debate and only come in here to troll then I'll treat you as such, got nothing nice to say or have no debate points to make about TDK ? then don't post.

 

[Solidus]

Nice post guys, very well thought out. I will continue to discuss after I'm done with my accounting.

 

[DaddyGrayson]

This thread was closed b/c i didn't clue everyone in on the fact I'd ok'd it, hell i even suggested the title, combining a welcome back thread for a popular poster with a discussion of TDK as a whole is not an issue.

If you can't debate and only come in here to troll then I'll treat you as such, got nothing nice to say or have no debate points to make about TDK ? then don't post.

Thanks Hunter.

Now someone fill me in on this Lacey Hulme fellow. Who is he and why did everyone want him to be Joker?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

This thread was closed b/c i didn't clue everyone in on the fact I'd ok'd it, hell i even suggested the title, combining a welcome back thread for a popular poster with a discussion of TDK as a whole is not an issue.

If you can't debate and only come in here to troll then I'll treat you as such, got nothing nice to say or have no debate points to make about TDK ? then don't post.

Now I feel better.

Thanks, Hunter.

 

[Shoemeister]

This thread was closed b/c i didn't clue everyone in on the fact I'd ok'd it, hell i even suggested the title, combining a welcome back thread for a popular poster with a discussion of TDK as a whole is not an issue.

Thanks, Hunter. You truly know how to HODE IT UP!

Now someone fill me in on this Lacey Hulme fellow. Who is he and why did everyone want him to be Joker?

Ugh... I was never for him. Apparently you weren't around for that debacle? Jett was a huge Hulme supporter, but I never understood the big deal. He's some no name. I've seen some of his stuff. Would have been bland, IMO.

 

[Sandouras]

This thread was closed b/c i didn't clue everyone in on the fact I'd ok'd it, hell i even suggested the title, combining a welcome back thread for a popular poster with a discussion of TDK as a whole is not an issue.

If you can't debate and only come in here to troll then I'll treat you as such, got nothing nice to say or have no debate points to make about TDK ? then don't post.

Who are you referring to?

Also, shouldnt it be fair and just for everyone? Who cares if a poster was away on holiday? We should all make threads to our name then, welcoming ourselves back, pretentiously exposing posts of our wisdom and giving room for talking about TDK. INTELLIGENTLY OF COURSE!

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Thanks Hunter.

Now someone fill me in on this Lacey Hulme fellow. Who is he and why did everyone want him to be Joker?

Lachy is nobody, honestly. He's some Australian actor who was in a couple of no-name movies and had a three nanosecond cameo in the Matrix trilogy. People thought he looked like the Joker (he didn't and doesn't) and thought he had the acting chops (he may but I never saw any indication of this).

It was odd that he had so much support among fanboys. To this day I don't understand it.

 

[JokerLedger]

Hate to say this but I kinda agree.

 

[Shoemeister]

It was odd that he had so much support among fanboys. To this day I don't understand it.

QFT. I think it just happened at a time where everyone though that Jett was always right. That belief dissolved shortly thereafter, though.

 

[DaddyGrayson]

Thanks, Hunter. You truly know how to HODE IT UP!



Ugh... I was never for him. Apparently you weren't around for that debacle? Jett was a huge suporter. I never understood the big deal. He's some no name. I've seen some of his stuff. Would have been bland, IMO.

Naw, I didn't come in until the very first virals.

And yeah, my only gripe so far would be that I'd like Joker to be perma-white. But I'm absolutely blown away by how much Heath got lost in the Joker. As Keyser and Norman said, you can't watch the trailer and not see it. Heath IS the Joker to me. He took my favorite villian, and put a great new spin on him. To me, he made him more badass (with the exception of perma-white). And it is my understanding that he was a big part in the direction of the character and the look as well. Am I correct in that?

 

[Hunter Rider]

Who are you referring to?

Also, shouldnt it be fair and just for everyone? Who cares if a poster was away on holiday? We should all make threads to our name then, welcoming ourselves back, pretentiously exposing posts of our wisdom and giving room for talking about TDK. INTELLIGENTLY OF COURSE!

Who do you think i was referring to ? it was a general statement.

Man don't be like that, Keyser has been a way for a lot longer than a holiday so a few of his buddies want to welcome him back, just chill, ive still left all the other "Jett says it's got WB head over heels" crap unclosed.

 

[DaddyGrayson]

Lachy is nobody, honestly. He's some Australian actor who was in a couple of no-name movies and had a three nanosecond cameo in the Matrix trilogy. People thought he looked like the Joker (he didn't and doesn't) and thought he had the acting chops (he may but I never saw any indication of this).

It was odd that he had so much support among fanboys. To this day I don't understand it.

Ahhh, I see. I do remember a Wizard interview with Bettany where he discussed the Joker and said that he wanted the role. He would have been good... but at this point, I can't even imagine anyone but Ledger in it.

 

[Shoemeister]

And yeah, my only gripe so far would be that I'd like Joker to be perma-white. But I'm absolutely blown away by how much Heath got lost in the Joker. As Keyser and Norman said, you can't watch the trailer and not see it. Heath IS the Joker to me. He took my favorite villian, and put a great new spin on him. To me, he made him more badass (with the exception of perma-white). And it is my understanding that he was a big part in the direction of the character and the look as well. Am I correct in that?

Indeed you are.

The perma-white issue never really bothered me. Of course, we STILL don't know the """"""""TRUTH""""""", but chances are he's wearing make-up. I don't care... never did. He is the true embodiment of the character. Heath's Joker will be remembered just as what Nolan has been touting all along: an absolute.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

QFT. I think it just happened at a time where everyone though that Jett was always right. That belief dissolved shortly thereafter, though.

It did. Hell, I used to read BOF every day, but I got tired of Jett's crap around the time the first teaser came out.

Naw, I didn't come in until the very first virals.

And yeah, my only gripe so far would be that I'd like Joker to be perma-white. But I'm absolutely blown away by how much Heath got lost in the Joker. As Keyser and Norman said, you can't watch the trailer and not see it. Heath IS the Joker to me. He took my favorite villian, and put a great new spin on him. To me, he made him more badass (with the exception of perma-white). And it is my understanding that he was a big part in the direction of the character and the look as well. Am I correct in that?

I'd be interested in hearing about that, too. I've been away so long there's a LOT I don't know.

 

[Shoemeister]

It did. Hell, I used to read BOF every day, but I got tired of Jett's crap around the time the first teaser came out.

You, me and the rest of the interwebz. I barely check BOF once every few months now.

 

[DaddyGrayson]

Indeed you are.

The perma-white issue never really bothered me. Of course, we STILL don't know the """"""""TRUTH""""""", but chances are he's wearing make-up. I don't care... never did. He is the true embodiment of the character. Heath's Joker will be remembered just as what Nolan has been touting all along: an absolute.

I'd love for him to be perma-white... but seriously at this point... how? It's not peach make-up. And he's not gonna fall into a vat at the end of the movie, that would be redundant. The scars are the new permanent disfiguration. But the make-up could possibly perma-cake itself on his face I suppose, ala Elizabeth I.

 

[ChrisB]

It did. Hell, I used to read BOF every day, but I got tired of Jett's crap around the time the first teaser came out.

Agreed!

 

[DaddyGrayson]

It did. Hell, I used to read BOF every day, but I got tired of Jett's crap around the time the first teaser came out.



I'd be interested in hearing about that, too. I've been away so long there's a LOT I don't know.

Well we all know that he talked about his ideas for the character with Nolan and they were the same. But I think I remember an interview with the costume/make-up people where they Heath had a big part in the look of the Joker.