The Dark Knight Let's debate various aspects of TDK

You know, that's a great post, man. As I said before I have no real opinion on Harvey, but I love what you just wrote. I wish Norm was here to rebut you and the two of you could debate back and forth a while.

I will say that I agree 100% with what you said about how comic writers handle the character...and it was equally bad if not worse in BF, where Harvey and Two-Face were both apparently jerks, just with different taste, and the coin toss was rendered useless not only by this, but by his habit of repeating the coin toss until he got the desired result. God that movie was bad...

I was wondering if in this second movie we'll get to see Harvey's connections with the mob. It would be a good setup to see him have sources and snitches in the mob and that way, when he finally becomes Two-Face, he would already have a leg-in amongst the baddies.

It would be a little silly I think if suddenly the mob started working for him just because he got disfigured by acid. Him working with the mob behind-the-scenes (with best intentions, of course) would only add to the duality of his character and provide a sound basis for Two-Face's reign.

So I hope he's not just this goody-two-shoes that suddenly turns bad.
 
I disagree. I don't think Two-Face's actions in TLH/DV were motivated by a desire to save the city. When Dent was scarred, it revealed to him an utter failing in the system he upheld. Unable to believe in justice any longer, but also unable to turn his back on everything he believed in, he broke in two. With two equal voices, he was unable to make judgments, hence the coin. Harvey may have still wanted to save the city, but not Two-Face.

Sometimes I wonder if the Two-Face persona even has motivations. I wonder if it's not just pure resentment, a juvenile sort of lashing out. It does whatever it can to create chaos, because it's an entity made entirely out of the anger and misery of Harvey. It's not about revenge, it's not about anything--it's just a persistent condition of hate that has a voice. Two-Face exists because Harvey could not conceive of venting what he was feeling, and so he created another persona to do it for him.

It took me a while to figure that out. I was always thinking "Why does Two-Face commit crimes? Why does he do anything he does?" The problem was that I was thinking of the Two-Face persona as a part of Harvey Dent--something that, in some way, is influenced by who he was. A sort of darker Harvey. But that doesn't follow. A darker Harvey wouldn't rob banks or kidnap twins or any of that. Accordingly, Two-Face must not be at all like Harvey Dent. He is a different personality entirely, not motivated by anything in Harvey's life, or any darker versions of Harvey's feelings.

One issue I have is that most writers ignore Dent entirely. Sure, he flips the coin to decide whether or not to off Batman, but what about before that? Why don't we see Dent sitting in a basement somewhere arguing about whether they should A) turn themselves in, or B) execute some crazy scheme? Two-Face is always depicted as being in the driver's seat. You never hear Harvey say "Screw this, I don't want to run this gang. Nuts to bank robberies. I don't want to steal that shipment of Doublemint Gum."

Two-Face is often written as one mind that simply can't decide whether or not to use lethal force. This shouldn't be the case. When Two-Face says "Let's put Gordon on trial!" Harvey should say "Nuts to you." I would like to see some coin tosses land in Harvey's favour, I'd like to see Harvey drive for while, only to have his plans twisted by Two-Face when the coin lands scarred side up. What is Harvey Dent thinking when Two-Face is running amok? What would Harvey do instead, if the coin favoured him? How would Two-Face twist that into something terrible?

:up: great read Saint. it would be interesting to see how the "driver's seat" aspect would play out on film.
 
If this thread is to be about debating various aspects of TDK.....then I want to see debates about various aspects of TDK. The thread is not for funny pics that have nothing to do with anything except to prove how internet cool you are. It's not for *****ing and moaning because you don't like the people who started it. It's not for the stupid useless smalltalk that is prevalent in the lounge. It is for debate.....so debate.
 
I'm afraid the viral itself is becoming larger than the actual film.
 
I'm afraid that Heath Ledger as the Joker is becoming larger than the actual film. It could backfire.
 
I'm afraid that Heath Ledger as the Joker is becoming larger than the actual film. It could backfire.
Well it worked for Jack in 89. It's the nature of the beast that the Joker will steal the show.
 
If the hype and screentime for Joker is the same as Jack's, I better not hear how genius it was.

All I remember is people here b1tching about that. :o
 
I'm afraid that Heath Ledger as the Joker is becoming larger than the actual film. It could backfire.

The buzz about Ledger's death is still there, but not as big as it once was. However, it will still be attached to TDK no matter what. I have a feeling that Batman will appear in the virals soon to point the attention back to him. So far, the only buzz about the Caped Crusader is his new suit. That's it.

The marketing crews know what they are doing. I have faith in them.
 
I disagree. I don't think Two-Face's actions in TLH/DV were motivated by a desire to save the city. When Dent was scarred, it revealed to him an utter failing in the system he upheld. Unable to believe in justice any longer, but also unable to turn his back on everything he believed in, he broke in two. With two equal voices, he was unable to make judgments, hence the coin. Harvey may have still wanted to save the city, but not Two-Face.

Sometimes I wonder if the Two-Face persona even has motivations. I wonder if it's not just pure resentment, a juvenile sort of lashing out. It does whatever it can to create chaos, because it's an entity made entirely out of the anger and misery of Harvey. It's not about revenge, it's not about anything--it's just a persistent condition of hate that has a voice. Two-Face exists because Harvey could not conceive of venting what he was feeling, and so he created another persona to do it for him.

It took me a while to figure that out. I was always thinking "Why does Two-Face commit crimes? Why does he do anything he does?" The problem was that I was thinking of the Two-Face persona as a part of Harvey Dent--something that, in some way, is influenced by who he was. A sort of darker Harvey. But that doesn't follow. A darker Harvey wouldn't rob banks or kidnap twins or any of that. Accordingly, Two-Face must not be at all like Harvey Dent. He is a different personality entirely, not motivated by anything in Harvey's life, or any darker versions of Harvey's feelings.

One issue I have is that most writers ignore Dent entirely. Sure, he flips the coin to decide whether or not to off Batman, but what about before that? Why don't we see Dent sitting in a basement somewhere arguing about whether they should A) turn themselves in, or B) execute some crazy scheme? Two-Face is always depicted as being in the driver's seat. You never hear Harvey say "Screw this, I don't want to run this gang. Nuts to bank robberies. I don't want to steal that shipment of Doublemint Gum."

Two-Face is often written as one mind that simply can't decide whether or not to use lethal force. This shouldn't be the case. When Two-Face says "Let's put Gordon on trial!" Harvey should say "Nuts to you." I would like to see some coin tosses land in Harvey's favour, I'd like to see Harvey drive for while, only to have his plans twisted by Two-Face when the coin lands scarred side up. What is Harvey Dent thinking when Two-Face is running amok? What would Harvey do instead, if the coin favoured him? How would Two-Face twist that into something terrible?

See, I agree that overall you nail the character of Two Face in the comics perfectly. Overall the idea that Two Face is "Saving the city" with no respect to the law does not fit for the reasons listed. There is no reason to rob a bank to save the city....unless one is convinced that the money from the bank is needed to fund his organization. A greater good angle.

I think you are wrong, however, in that the Two Face of TLH/DV did have that motivation. See, I think Loeb's Two Face is slightly different from Two Face as a whole. Loeb's Two Face seems, dare I say, a bit more noble. His targets were only and always mobsters and criminals.

You could make the argument, of course, that the reason was because Two Face wanted to kill mobsters and criminals only - so he did. But if, like you insisted, Harvey Dent has little influence on Two Face, then the idea that Two Face wanted to finish Harvey's work doesn't fit.

The Two Face of TLH/DV is, in all honesty, little different from the Punisher in his crimes. I think Two Face, the vigilante, is a very interesting idea. I think Loeb did too.

Again, for the sake of repeating myself, I know that the "vigilante" motivation does not work for Two Face in comics as a whole - but from TLH/DV - 'THE' two Two Face stories - I think the argument is quite credible.
 
Well it worked for Jack in 89. It's the nature of the beast that the Joker will steal the show.
I'm not talking about screentime. I'm talking about the reputation this role has already made up for itself. It's becoming so inflated it may have trouble living up to the hype.
 
I'm not talking about screentime. I'm talking about the reputation this role has already made up for itself. It's becoming so inflated it may have trouble living up to the hype.
Gotcha, I see what you mean now. I guess we'll know in July. But I don't think that any actor has ever poured his soul (quoting Maestro Ang Lee) into a comic book villain the way Heath has with the Joker.
Except maybe for McMahon with Doom, just kidding on that last part of course.
 
Gotcha, I see what you mean now. I guess we'll know in July. But I don't think that any actor has ever poured his soul (quoting Maestro Ang Lee) into a comic book villain the way Heath has with the Joker.
Except maybe for McMahon with Doom, just kidding on that last part of course.

It's because he didn't just view it as a "comic book villian" like other actors such as McMahon do.
 
Yeah, but he is a comic book villain.

Yes, but most people look at the term "comic book" and automatically don't take it seriously. What I was trying to point out, and hints the quotation marks, is that Heath didn't take that stereotype, like someone like McMahon would've (and did).
 
People are always going to view it that way. I can guarantee that some will criticise Heath Ledger for taking a comic book character too seriously, unfortunately.
 
People are always going to view it that way. I can guarantee that some will criticise Heath Ledger for taking a comic book character too seriously, unfortunately.

What? I promise no one will criticize him for taking it TOO seriously. It was his JOB. His job was acting. To create art. You cannot take that too seriously. Find me one person before or after the movie is released and I'll eat my words, but no way is someone going to legitimately criticize him for taking it TOO seriously. That's absurd.
 
What? I promise no one will criticize him for taking it TOO seriously. It was his JOB. His job was acting. To create art. You cannot take that too seriously. Find me one person before or after the movie is released and I'll eat my words, but no way is someone going to legitimately criticize him for taking it TOO seriously. That's absurd.
Yeah, it is absurd. But if I know people, some idiot will make that criticism.
 
Yeah, it is absurd. But if I know people, some idiot will make that criticism.

He isn't making sandwiches in a deli though. It's impossible for him to take it too seriously. It's his job to take it seriously. Otherwise, we end up with another ****ty actor.
 
He isn't making sandwiches in a deli though. It's impossible for him to take it too seriously. It's his job to take it seriously. Otherwise, we end up with another ****ty actor.
You don't have to tell me this.
 

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