"Make America Great Again"the F'dup Chapters in American History (The Trump Years) - Part 4

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[MessiahDecoy123]

I can see a charming, handsome more politically savvy version of Trump attempting to discredit the courts and the free press. And making legitimate headway in consolidating more power within the executive branch. Regardless of who succeeds the Orange Lump of Feces in Chief, the office of the president needs to be taken down a notch or three.

Possibly taking the Executive Branch is all the Democrats have.

Thanks to gerrymandering and voter restrictions, I doubt they take back the Legislative Branch any time soon.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You kind of just proved my point. Presidents don't publicly disagree with the sitting Supreme Court. It doesn't really happen the fact that you think they do is in part because Obama normalized this type of behavior and it wasn't just the State of the Union it was the whole run up to the rulings on the ACA. If you recall he called them "an unelected group of people" and that it would be unprecedented if they overturned a law passed by a democratically elected Congress. I would say calling them "an unelected group of people" is discrediting the whole court and their power to rule on the constitutionality of legislation.

W. commented on rulings that went against him like this:



And he often criticized rulings at the state level dealing with gay marriage referring to them as activist judges but not the Supreme Court.

Reagan criticized a 1962 decision on school prayer and called for an amendment and said the courts threw God out of schools.

I have no problem with presidents publicly disagreeing with the Supreme Court.

Obama rightfully criticized Supreme Court for their Citizens United ruling. It did nothing but hurt our democracy.

Trump's goals are not to protect democracy. He's not minimizing the supreme court in the hopes that the public will push back against an undemocratic ruling.

We're talking about undermining the Judiciary Branch so he can push through unconstitutional policy after policy.

Trump has gone on record saying the first amendment offers "too much protection". He has advocated making it easier to sue the press. He wanted to strip flag burners of their citizenship and jail them. He has encouraged beating up protestors. He actually had an executive order to ban Muslims in a less obvious way. He has advocated extreme torture beyond waterboarding.

All of these are incredibly unconstitutional and borderline fascist yet you bring up the one time Obama justifiably spoke out against the Citizens United ruling.

Because that set the stage for what Trump is doing and advocating. No, the only ones setting the stage for Trump's authoritarianism is people like you.

Questioning the Supreme Court to help democracy survive and undermining the Supreme Court to destroy democracy and usher in fascism are two completely different things.

And blaming the former for the latter is pretty low.

 

[Marvolo]

Possibly taking the Executive Branch is all the Democrats have.

Thanks to gerrymandering and voter restrictions, I doubt they take back the Legislative Branch any time soon.

Thankfully we have a census in 2020. Redistricting is going to happen. The GOP may lose its grip on the legislative branch.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Thankfully we have a census in 2020. Redistricting is going to happen. The GOP may lose its grip on the legislative branch.

You can bet your ass the GOP will do everything they can to rig and warp those results.

 

[summerteeth]

I have no problem with presidents publicly disagreeing with the Supreme Court.

Obama rightfully criticized Supreme Court for their Citizens United ruling. It did nothing but hurt our democracy.

Trump's goals are not to protect democracy. He's not minimizing the supreme court in the hopes that the public will push back against an undemocratic ruling.

We're talking about undermining the Judiciary Branch so he can push through unconstitutional policy after policy.

Trump has gone on record saying the first amendment offers "too much protection". He has advocated making it easier to sue the press. He wanted to strip flag burners of their citizenship and jail them. He has encouraged beating up protestors. He actually had an executive order to ban Muslims in a less obvious way. He has advocated extreme torture beyond waterboarding.

All of these are incredibly unconstitutional and borderline fascist yet you bring up the one time Obama justifiably spoke out against the Citizens United ruling.

Because that set the stage for what Trump is doing and advocating. No, the only ones setting the stage for Trump's authoritarianism is people like you.

Questioning the Supreme Court to help democracy survive and undermining the Supreme Court to destroy democracy and usher in fascism are two completely different things.

And blaming the former for the latter is pretty low.

It's not about blame it's about understanding how we got here and why. Obama broke with decorum he broke with precedent on how and when to speak on issues. It was not just Citizen's United, I also pointed to his comments leading up to the ACA.

You thought it was normal for a President to speak out against a Supreme Court ruling because of how Obama handled himself in office. Guess what...so do others, others that don't hold your views and see that the other guy did it why can't their guy. That's how they rationalize it. It's not normal and this is exactly why you don't do it whether or not you think he was right to do so the legitimacy of the courts rulings should not be put into question by the Executive Branch.

They see a media that didn't nearly cover Obama's attacks on the Supreme Court but see it covering Trump's which in turn validates their world view that the media has an agenda.

There's a reason why Republicans referred to Obama as the "Imperial President" the question is...where are those Republicans now?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's not about blame it's about understanding how we got here and why. Obama broke with decorum he broke with precedent on how and when to speak on issues. It was not just Citizen's United, I also pointed to his comments leading up to the ACA.

You thought it was normal for a President to speak out against a Supreme Court ruling because of how Obama handled himself in office. Guess what...so do others, others that don't hold your views and see that the other guy did it why can't their guy. That's how they rationalize it.

They see a media that didn't nearly cover Obama's attacks on the Supreme Court but see it covering Trump's which in turn validates their world view that the media has an agenda.

There's a reason why Republicans referred to Obama as the "Imperial President" the question is...where are those Republicans now?

Wrong, I think it's acceptable to question the Supreme Court when they have a ruling that is undemocratic.

Trump is attacking the integrity of the Supreme Court to undermine the Bill of Rights.

I'll make it simple:

Fighting for democracy, GOOD.

Fighting for unconstitutional authoritarianism, BAD.

 

[Sithborg]

You can bet your ass the GOP will do everything they can to rig and warp those results.

Yep. The GOP has a pretty strong hold on state legislatures. Even the "blue" states.

 

[hellified]

Yep. The GOP has a pretty strong hold on state legislatures. Even the "blue" states.

one word gerrymander

 

[Fading]

Wrong, I think it's acceptable to question the Supreme Court when they have a ruling that is undemocratic.

Trump is attacking the integrity of the Supreme Court to undermine the Bill of Rights.

I'll make it simple:

Fighting for democracy, GOOD.

Fighting for unconstitutional authoritarianism, BAD.

Agreed, context is important. It's reasonable for anyone to question a questionable action. If the supreme court suddenly legalized domestic abuse in a similar way to what Russia is currently trying to do, I'd expect our president to say/do something. What Trump is doing is completely different. Saying Obama set the ground work for Trump is false, as it's not an apples to apples comparison. That's not excusing anything wrong Obama did, but Trump isn't "taking it up to 11", Trump is an entirely different beast.

Trump called Giuliani to try and find a work around to make a Muslim ban legal. Then when the judge did his job, Trump tried to pin the next terrorist attack on that same judge. Trump questioned another judge's ability to make rational calls on immigration because of his heritage. 2 of Trump's advisor's said (paraphrasing), "The judges against us will understand we're not to be questioned, they will soon see that." The Trump administration is outright insulting, and threatening any judicial member who doesn't tow the line.

As for Obama, and Trump similarities vs the press, equally different. Obama criticised one network know for being biased. Trump is delegitimizing the press as a whole. He's outright making up events. Conway's Bowling Green Massacre, and Trump's very own Battle of Bloody River, and Swedish terrorist attack. Trump spends press conferences stroking his ego, while silencing journalists. He called the CEO of Time Warner Cable to the White House to talk down to him over CNN's coverage of him. Then when the media dare fact check his statements, it's fake news. This isn't one news organisation trying to paint a president in a bad light non stop for 8 years. This is news organisations reporting the truth, and being called fake, and enemies by a sitting president.

Trump didn't even just question their integrity, or call them "Fake News". Trump called our press the enemy of America. Trump is a different kind of dangerous. Seeing it said that we're all over reacting, that Trump's not that dangerous. That he's just Obama turned up a notch. It's a gross understatement of what Trump actually is doing, and threatening.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Possibly taking the Executive Branch is all the Democrats have.

Thanks to gerrymandering and voter restrictions, I doubt they take back the Legislative Branch any time soon.

You can bet your ass the GOP will do everything they can to rig and warp those results.

And the Dems will do f*** all to "fix" the gerrymandering "problem" because they want to do the same thing when they have the upper hand. If they wanted to do something about it they could've easily done so in 2008-2010 but declined to do so.

Has been going on for a long time and half the country only complains when they're on the receiving end of the negative consequences from it. Everyone magically forgets when they are the ones who can draw the lines.

 

[Fading]

one word gerrymander

Just look at the Devos vote. She was clearly unqualified. Yet they said yes down party lines, which is no doubt partly in thanks to her $250 million in "campaign donations". Of course they'll do everything in their power to keep gerrymandering going. They view keeping their job as more important than the country.

 

[Dr Lee]

and getting paid off...

 

[Fading]

And the Dems will do f*** all to "fix" the gerrymandering "problem" because they want to do the same thing when they have the upper hand. If they wanted to do something about it they could've easily done so in 2008-2010 but declined to do so.

Has been going on for a long time and half the country only complains when they're on the receiving end of the negative consequences from it. Everyone magically forgets when they are the ones who can draw the lines.

Agreed.

This is closer to what the map is really like. We're used to seeing large sections of red, and blue, that's not accurate. The map is actually mostly purple. Gerrymandering, and the electoral college are what turn it into solid chunks. It makes it where incumbents like Mitch McConell can say whatever without fear of losing. Or why presidential nominees can ignore everyone, but swing states.

 

[summerteeth]

Wrong, I think it's acceptable to question the Supreme Court when they have a ruling that is undemocratic.

Trump is attacking the integrity of the Supreme Court to undermine the Bill of Rights.

I'll make it simple:

Fighting for democracy, GOOD.

Fighting for unconstitutional authoritarianism, BAD.

Not sure what I am wrong about....what you deem acceptable or unacceptable is irrelevant to the debate. What my point was is that Obama broke precedent and normalized this type of behavior. A point that you seemed to validate when you demonstrated the belief that Presidents speak out against Supreme Court rulings all the time when they really don't.

 

[Reek]

I wonder if Trump is going to declare Comedy Central as terrorists now for replaying the Trump Roast

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Not sure what I am wrong about....what you deem acceptable or unacceptable is irrelevant to the debate. What my point was is that Obama broke precedent and normalized this type of behavior. A point that you seemed to validate when you demonstrated the belief that Presidents speak out against Supreme Court rulings all the time when they really don't.

I think no one is going to change anyone's mind here. Thing is though... Do you really want to blame Obama for "normalizing" what you claim, and it seems that way to me since you keep pointing to some rather mild comments by the man, when we can all point out the ways in which Republicans have conducted a scorched Earth policy of demonizing opponents with some pretty scurrilous "evidence" to back it up for decades now? I can't reasonably pretend that this is in Obama's lap cuz he, like MANY other citizens think the SCOTUS was quite wrong in it's decision to essentially legalize massive corporate influence and money into the system. And as for the whole "He attacked FOX news"? He again spoke in pretty common sense and measured tones on the subject. We are talking about an organization that used sensationalist claims about the man for 8 years, gave equal time to "birthers", even tried to claim that a fist bump, a common American gesture for decades now was a "terrorist" hand signal of some kind. Frankly in NOT blowing his top every time someone impugned his legitimacy as a citizen (much less as POTUS) or snidely implied he was a terrorist sympathizer or all the other nonsense FOX was a willing participant in, he showed far more class than the other side has for as long as I have been alive.

 

[Ouch]

Possibly taking the Executive Branch is all the Democrats have.

Thanks to gerrymandering and voter restrictions, I doubt they take back the Legislative Branch any time soon.

That, plus their considerable political ineptitude.

Thankfully we have a census in 2020. Redistricting is going to happen. The GOP may lose its grip on the legislative branch.

I doubt it.

Yep. The GOP has a pretty strong hold on state legislatures. Even the "blue" states.

Yep. The Democratic Party is in all kinds of trouble, and it is going to take a ton of things to go their way, a lot of things to go against the GOP, a considerable amount of political skill (which they lack) and a lot of luck for them to get back anywhere near even in the next 8 years. Only Trump's massive incompetence helps them at all.

 

[Sithborg]

I am a bit hopeful for MI. I try not to think about the side of the state that thinks poisoning the other side is a good thing...

 

[Fading]

Well, tomorrow Dymtro Firtash goes up for extradition appeal again. The man has ties to Paul Manafort, and Trump himself indirectly. Yay, more Russian ties! The US has been trying hard to bring him in from Austria for various crimes. Reportedly the guy has serious dirt on Trump too. Let's see how the Trump administration handles, or doesn't handle the attempt to bring him in. I doubt it'll get much coverage, but Trump's actions towards extraditing a felon with ties to him, Manafort, and Putin should be telling.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-02-16/will-trump-rescue-the-oligarch-in-the-gilded-cage

 

[Sithborg]

Son of a *****. I mean, 1, he's rich, thus Trump would think it isn't an issue. I guess this is Session's first real test.

 

[Fading]

I edited my post above to add in a better link, but yeah. The guy has a laundry list of reasons why the US wants him. We've been trying to get him for 3 years now. He has direct ties to Manafort, and Putin, and indirect ties to Trump. Now it's up to hand appointed Trump people whether we push to extradite him again. Normally I like it when Trump gets caught doing wrong, but I want to see this guy brought in. I hope they do the right thing as this guy singing can do a lot of damage. Then again, it's very telling if it's just silently dropped.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Agreed, context is important. It's reasonable for anyone to question a questionable action. If the supreme court suddenly legalized domestic abuse in a similar way to what Russia is currently trying to do, I'd expect our president to say/do something. What Trump is doing is completely different. Saying Obama set the ground work for Trump is false, as it's not an apples to apples comparison. That's not excusing anything wrong Obama did, but Trump isn't "taking it up to 11", Trump is an entirely different beast.

Trump called Giuliani to try and find a work around to make a Muslim ban legal. Then when the judge did his job, Trump tried to pin the next terrorist attack on that same judge. Trump questioned another judge's ability to make rational calls on immigration because of his heritage. 2 of Trump's advisor's said (paraphrasing), "The judges against us will understand we're not to be questioned, they will soon see that." The Trump administration is outright insulting, and threatening any judicial member who doesn't tow the line.

As for Obama, and Trump similarities vs the press, equally different. Obama criticised one network know for being biased. Trump is delegitimizing the press as a whole. He's outright making up events. Conway's Bowling Green Massacre, and Trump's very own Battle of Bloody River, and Swedish terrorist attack. Trump spends press conferences stroking his ego, while silencing journalists. He called the CEO of Time Warner Cable to the White House to talk down to him over CNN's coverage of him. Then when the media dare fact check his statements, it's fake news. This isn't one news organisation trying to paint a president in a bad light non stop for 8 years. This is news organisations reporting the truth, and being called fake, and enemies by a sitting president.

Trump didn't even just question their integrity, or call them "Fake News". Trump called our press the enemy of America. Trump is a different kind of dangerous. Seeing it said that we're all over reacting, that Trump's not that dangerous. That he's just Obama turned up a notch. It's a gross understatement of what Trump actually is doing, and threatening.

I think no one is going to change anyone's mind here. Thing is though... Do you really want to blame Obama for "normalizing" what you claim, and it seems that way to me since you keep pointing to some rather mild comments by the man, when we can all point out the ways in which Republicans have conducted a scorched Earth policy of demonizing opponents with some pretty scurrilous "evidence" to back it up for decades now? I can't reasonably pretend that this is in Obama's lap cuz he, like MANY other citizens think the SCOTUS was quite wrong in it's decision to essentially legalize massive corporate influence and money into the system. And as for the whole "He attacked FOX news"? He again spoke in pretty common sense and measured tones on the subject. We are talking about an organization that used sensationalist claims about the man for 8 years, gave equal time to "birthers", even tried to claim that a fist bump, a common American gesture for decades now was a "terrorist" hand signal of some kind. Frankly in NOT blowing his top every time someone impugned his legitimacy as a citizen (much less as POTUS) or snidely implied he was a terrorist sympathizer or all the other nonsense FOX was a willing participant in, he showed far more class than the other side has for as long as I have been alive.

Thanks people, I was starting to think I entered the Twilligh Zone.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Thanks people, I was starting to think I entered the Twilligh Zone.