Comics Man, if MJ dies then thats it...

[Dangerous]

Also did'nt I already make a thread about this?

 

[Spider - Man]

Well, not to put MJ down, as I actually do love the character, but in pretty much every comparison between the two, Gwen came out on top. For example, ASM #47. When Gwen starts dancing, nobody was paying attention to MJ. Or ASM #83, when they both kiss Flash goodbye. Gwen's kiss has alot more impact on Flash. And then there is of course the fact that Gwen is the one Peter chose to be with.



Okay. You might as well have just typed a series of periods, exclamation points and question marks. Because what you have there makes no more sense. You just tossed alot of hyperbole without backing up anything you say. If you've read ASM #31-121, you'd know that Gwen was for the most part cheerful and fun to be with. BUT- she had an emotional connection to Peter and thus had to show an emotional response to what was going on with him. What's silly is when people like yourself bring this up as a strike against Gwen, when if you've read the MJ stories, she does EXACTLY THE SAME THING, placed in those same situations. I mean, I was just doing some research for another discussion and was reminded that MJ was in pieces from the first moment she discussed Peter's identity with him.

And, I'd love for you to point to me anything indicating that Peter didn't enjoy being with Gwen, or where it appeared she'd be a drag to be with. Or, for that matter when it looked like he was enjoying being with MJ more.

It's fine if you prefer MJ. But if you're going to trash another character, try making sense.

I think the reason that everyone was looking at Gwen instead of MJ in 47 was because that was more out of character for Gwen. It's kind of like seeing some girl who you might not think is that attractive who suddenly takes off her glasses and changes her knee length skirt for a pair of snug jeans and you realize she is a lot hotter than you thought she was. She may STILL not be as hot as girl "B" but you're so unused to seeing her in that light, you may pay her more attention than you would the hotter girl for the moment.

As for the kiss, you get the feeling that MJ's been around in that group. She's probably kissed Flash before. gwen probably hasn't. And again, that kinda seems out of character for Gwen. Probably was very unexpected by Flash (or ANYONE!). So I don't see that as a reason to think Flash thinks Gwen is hotter than MJ.

I don't have time to go and do research at the moment (i.e: go thru each issue one-by-one to point out specific examples. I just know in general, Peter was always on this emotional roller-coaster ride with gwen. One minute they were happy as clams. The next they were at odds with Peter whining about "How could she ever love a schlub like me?" I HATED him being that way. And it was because of Gwen. MJ never made him act that way. Sure it was sometimes a roller-coaster ride with her too but he seemed to enjoy it more. He even stood up to MJ. She was more his equal. Thru all of those issues, one minute gwen was happy, the next she was crying. Maybe you like women to be that way but I certainly don't. I don't care how pretty they are. I don't consider an emotional connection to someone a strike against a person. I consider it a strike against a person (or both people) when what they bring out in each other is happy one minute and sad the next. Maybe you've never had a relationship like that but I have and brother, it ain't any fun!

I never said that crying was something that was bad for either of them to do, but I'll bet money that gwen, appearing in fewer issues than MJ, cried more than MJ over goofy stuff. "Oh, Peter...my darling." vomit!!!

MJ on the other hand, seemed like she would be sooo much fun to be around! I said I would rather be out on the town with MJ for that reason! And MJ KNOWS Peter's Spider-Man and doesn't worry about him as much as Gwen did NOT knowing!

As I like to back up my opinions with photo-documentation:

If you can show me Gwen looking hotter than MJ, I will digress.

Bottom line, this is just a matter of opinion. Some guys like blondes, others like redheads. Some guys like whiny chicks, some like fun chicks. I don't really care so much about the hair color, as long as the collar and cuffs match, but give a fun MJ type girl over a bi-polar acting Gwen type ANY DAY! If that was still too confusing for you to understand, I'm afraid it's about the best I can do!

 

[Kevin]

I dislike blondes. no real reason, just do.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I think the reason that everyone was looking at Gwen instead of MJ in 47 was because that was more out of character for Gwen. It's kind of like seeing some girl who you might not think is that attractive who suddenly takes off her glasses and changes her knee length skirt for a pair of snug jeans and you realize she is a lot hotter than you thought she was. She may STILL not be as hot as girl "B" but you're so unused to seeing her in that light, you may pay her more attention than you would the hotter girl for the moment.

As for the kiss, you get the feeling that MJ's been around in that group. She's probably kissed Flash before. gwen probably hasn't. And again, that kinda seems out of character for Gwen. Probably was very unexpected by Flash (or ANYONE!). So I don't see that as a reason to think Flash thinks Gwen is hotter than MJ.

I don't have time to go and do research at the moment (i.e: go thru each issue one-by-one to point out specific examples. I just know in general, Peter was always on this emotional roller-coaster ride with gwen. One minute they were happy as clams. The next they were at odds with Peter whining about "How could she ever love a schlub like me?" I HATED him being that way. And it was because of Gwen. MJ never made him act that way. Sure it was sometimes a roller-coaster ride with her too but he seemed to enjoy it more. He even stood up to MJ. She was more his equal. Thru all of those issues, one minute gwen was happy, the next she was crying. Maybe you like women to be that way but I certainly don't. I don't care how pretty they are. I don't consider an emotional connection to someone a strike against a person. I consider it a strike against a person (or both people) when what they bring out in each other is happy one minute and sad the next. Maybe you've never had a relationship like that but I have and brother, it ain't any fun!

I never said that crying was something that was bad for either of them to do, but I'll bet money that gwen, appearing in fewer issues than MJ, cried more than MJ over goofy stuff. "Oh, Peter...my darling." vomit!!!

MJ on the other hand, seemed like she would be sooo much fun to be around! I said I would rather be out on the town with MJ for that reason! And MJ KNOWS Peter's Spider-Man and doesn't worry about him as much as Gwen did NOT knowing!

As I like to back up my opinions with photo-documentation:

If you can show me Gwen looking hotter than MJ, I will digress.

Bottom line, this is just a matter of opinion. Some guys like blondes, others like redheads. Some guys like whiny chicks, some like fun chicks. I don't really care so much about the hair color, as long as the collar and cuffs match, but give a fun MJ type girl over a bi-polar acting Gwen type ANY DAY! If that was still too confusing for you to understand, I'm afraid it's about the best I can do!

mj sure is beautiful.

 

[Dragon]

I think the reason that everyone was looking at Gwen instead of MJ in 47 was because that was more out of character for Gwen. It's kind of like seeing some girl who you might not think is that attractive who suddenly takes off her glasses and changes her knee length skirt for a pair of snug jeans and you realize she is a lot hotter than you thought she was. She may STILL be as hot as girl "B" but you're so unused to seeing her in that light, you may pay her more attention than you would the hotter girl for the moment.

Did you actually read the dialogue in the scene? Was anyone expressing surprise to see Gwen out there? Look at the dress she's wearing. No one expressed surprise at that either. And in the previous issues Gwen was always inviting Peter to one party or another. That's simply who everyone knew Gwen to be.

As for the kiss, you get the feeling that MJ's been around in that group. She's probably kissed Flash before. gwen probably hasn't. And again, that kinda seems out of character for Gwen. Probably was very unexpected by Flash (or ANYONE!). So I don't see that as a reason to think Flash thinks Gwen is hotter than MJ.

When had MJ kissed Flash before? When had they even dated? But Flash had gone out with Gwen before (Although not seriously).

I don't have time to go and do research at the moment (i.e: go thru each issue one-by-one to point out specific examples. I just know in general, Peter was always on this emotional roller-coaster ride with gwen. One minute they were happy as clams. The next they were at odds with Peter whining about "How could she ever love a schlub like me?" I HATED him being that way. And it was because of Gwen. MJ never made him act that way. Sure it was sometimes a roller-coaster ride with her too but he seemed to enjoy it more.

He "seemed" to enjoy it more? Okay. Was that when MJ turned down his proposal? Was that when, after risking his neck to save her and her movie crew, and instead of thanking him, she walks off with Lobster man?

He even stood up to MJ. She was more his equal. Thru all of those issues, one minute gwen was happy, the next she was crying. Maybe you like women to be that way but I certainly don't. I don't care how pretty they are. I don't consider an emotional connection to someone a strike against a person. I consider it a strike against a person (or both people) when what they bring out in each other is happy one minute and sad the next. Maybe you've never had a relationship like that but I have and brother, it ain't any fun!

So, then you feel that way about MJ is boo-hooing revealing Peter's ID, which, since she's known it for years, shouldn't be something she;s freaked out about. But she is. Good point.

I never said that crying was something that was bad for either of them to do, but I'll bet money that gwen, appearing in fewer issues than MJ, cried more than MJ over goofy stuff. "Oh, Peter...my darling." vomit!!!

You'd lose that bet.

MJ on the other hand, seemed like she would be sooo much fun to be around! I said I would rather be out on the town with MJ for that reason! And MJ KNOWS Peter's Spider-Man and doesn't worry about him as much as Gwen did NOT knowing!

Okay. you clearly haven't read many issues of Spider-Man. MJ DEMANDED more than once for Peter to QUIT be Spider-Man.

As I like to back up my opinions with photo-documentation:


If you can show me Gwen looking hotter than MJ, I will digress.

Oh come now. Because someone drew a picture of MJ in lingerie or S & M gear you think that means something? You think they couldn't draw Gwen wearing the same outfits? If you do a search you can find images of Gwen and MJ nude and having lesbian sex. None of that matters as far as how the characters are depicted on the comic page.

Bottom line, this is just a matter of opinion. Some guys like blondes, others like redheads. Some guys like whiny chicks, some like fun chicks. I don't really care so much about the hair color, as long as the collar and cuffs match, but give a fun MJ type girl over a bi-polar acting Gwen type ANY DAY! If that was still too confusing for you to understand, I'm afraid it's about the best I can do!

It's not hard to understand. I'm just waiting for you to back it up. I can say MJ is whiny and bi-polar too, and I can even back it up with stories where she appears this way. It doesn't mean that it's a correct description of her OVERALL character.

 

[Spider - Man]

Did you actually read the dialogue in the scene? Was anyone expressing surprise to see Gwen out there? Look at the dress she's wearing. No one expressed surprise at that either. And in the previous issues Gwen was always inviting Peter to one party or another. That's simply who everyone knew Gwen to be.



When had MJ kissed Flash before? When had they even dated? But Flash had gone out with Gwen before (Although not seriously).



He "seemed" to enjoy it more? Okay. Was that when MJ turned down his proposal? Was that when, after risking his neck to save her and her movie crew, and instead of thanking him, she walks off with Lobster man?





So, then you feel that way about MJ is boo-hooing revealing Peter's ID, which, since she's known it for years, shouldn't be something she;s freaked out about. But she is. Good point.



You'd lose that bet.



Okay. you clearly haven't read many issues of Spider-Man. MJ DEMANDED more than once for Peter to QUIT be Spider-Man.



Oh come now. Because someone drew a picture of MJ in lingerie or S & M gear you think that means something? You think they couldn't draw Gwen wearing the same outfits? If you do a search you can find images of Gwen and MJ nude and having lesbian sex. None of that matters as far as how the characters are depicted on the comic page.



It's not hard to understand. I'm just waiting for you to back it up. I can say MJ is whiny and bi-polar too, and I can even back it up with stories where she appears this way. It doesn't mean that it's a correct description of her OVERALL character.

As I said I don't have time to go thru all the back issues to back up what I'm saying with specific examples. I've been collecting ASm since '74 and have read the back issues via Essential line. As I said, if you prefer Gwen, good for you. To me, she came across as a spoiled daddy's girl who swung from happy and in love with Peter to being sad or angry over him almost every other issue. How much did her character develop over 90 some issues? To me, none. She was monumentally dull to me. To someone else too apparently because they killed her off!

You say you can back up MJ being whiny and bipolar and have said you spend time doing research yet you don't provide the evidence. And more to the point, it's how Pete reacts to each of those girls that makes the difference to me. He was always such a simpering wuss where gwen was concerned. "I'm not good enough" Blahblahblah. As you said MJ DEMANDED he stop being Spider-Man. Did he? No. Again as I said before, he stood up to her. She brought that fire out in him. All Gwen did was play him for a fool, especially if you want to consider Sins Past canon.

Bottom line: you prefer Gwen. I prefer MJ. And I see no reason to need to back that up.

 

[J. J. Jameson]

As Donald Thomas said, there is going to be a mindwipe. MJ will forget Peter is Spider-Man and their marriage won't ever have been, which causes Peter to wear the black costume again, or at least embrace it for some reason.

Kill me, I mean just KILL ME NOW DARN IT!

 

[Dragon]

As I said I don't have time to go thru all the back issues to back up what I'm saying with specific examples. I've been collecting ASm since '74 and have read the back issues via Essential line. As I said, if you prefer Gwen, good for you. To me, she came across as a spoiled daddy's girl who swung from happy and in love with Peter to being sad or angry over him almost every other issue.

Wow. It's funny that again, you say this without backing it up. When was Gwen acting spoiled? When she would reassure Peter that it didn't matter if he had money? When she was out there protesting for the environment or students' rights? When was she acting like a Daddy's girl exactly? Oh- because she loved her father? Then I guess Peter is a momma's boy. Gotcha. And holy crap- she got upset when bad things happened. She must be bi-polar. Of course MJ never got upset when things went wrong with Peter. She sat around giggling all the way.

How much did her character develop over 90 some issues? To me, none. She was monumentally dull to me. To someone else too apparently because they killed her off!

Well, she certainly shifted in her ego-tripping and hot temper to being understanding of Peter. But yes, she didn't develop far enough. But then neither did MJ, or Aunt May or anyone else except Flash and Harry, and their development was due to storylines that demanded it. Developing supporting characters simply was done when Gwen was around if it cut inbto the action.

You say you can back up MJ being whiny and bipolar and have said you spend time doing research yet you don't provide the evidence.

Okay- off the top of my head- ASM #127 she's freaked out over seeing a murder, then the next day she's claiming it didn't happen. She's nearly killed in ASM #136 and if you accept her knowing Peter's secret as canon, then her not bringing it up is pretty freaky. During the first clone saga she gets upset over Peter spending time with Gwen. Geez- a guy's dead girlfriend returns to life and MJ is upset because he isn't paying enough attention to her. Ya think he might have other things on his mind? She turns down Peter's proposal with nothing more than her wanting to date other men. Great girl. Then a few issues later she says to herself that she still digs Peter. But does she do what a normal person would do and tell him and try to work things out? Nope. She continues playing games. Need more?

When she returns from Florida, she, while supposedly knowing Peter's secret imagines him and Spidey as two different people. That's stable. Then there's the breakdown she has after admitting she knows Peter's secret. Her "origin" when she explains that she had to develop a new "persona" cause she couldn't hack that her parents were unhappy. She wasn't abused or strung out on drugs or forced to run away. She had parents who yelled at her and each other. OH MY GOD. Need more? She's afraid of Spidey's black suit because Venom scared her. Yeah. That's a girl with some backbone. Meanwhile in ASM #103 Gwen is kidnapped by a 25 foot creature and told she's going to be mounted by jungle man Kraven- yet she's none the worse for wear. Yeah- she was a total wimp. I could continue to rip MJ up, but guess what- Despite the things I'm mentioning, I'm NOT going with your ridiuclous argument that these things make her a weak character as you're saying with Gwen.

And more to the point, it's how Pete reacts to each of those girls that makes the difference to me. He was always such a simpering wuss where gwen was concerned. "I'm not good enough" Blahblahblah. As you said MJ DEMANDED he stop being Spider-Man. Did he? No. Again as I said before, he stood up to her. She brought that fire out in him. All Gwen did was play him for a fool, especially if you want to consider Sins Past canon.

A wuss with Gwen. Okay. So Peter feeling bad because he made mistakes or wasn't as successful as HE WANTED TO BE is Gwen's fault. And Peter didn't stand up to MJ. He tried to hide his continuing as Spidey as long as he could. When MJ split on him after her traumatic experience of being kidnapped (Another show of strength on her part) Did he stand up and say they should work things out? Nope. When he goes out to LA to see her what does he do? Just tells her he'll wait for her forever. Yeah. Not wussish at all.

And I'll say this: with Gwen Peter kicked the living crap out of every villain he came across, and a good number of heroes to. With MJ he gets stomped by every punk on the street. Begs Electro for his life, Let's Venom go free numerous times because he's afraid of him, and even does the same with Carnage, a serial killer. And let's not forget that MJ convinced him to unmask. No- MJ didn't suck the life out of him at all.

Bottom line: you prefer Gwen. I prefer MJ. And I see no reason to need to back that up.

I said before that it's fine with me that you prefer MJ. But if you're trashing another character in the process and making assertions it's good if you can back them up. Excelsior.

 

[Spider - Man]

Edit.

 

[Spider - Man]

Wow. It's funny that again, you say this without backing it up. When was Gwen acting spoiled? When she would reassure Peter that it didn't matter if he had money? When she was out there protesting for the environment or students' rights? When was she acting like a Daddy's girl exactly? Oh- because she loved her father? Then I guess Peter is a momma's boy. Gotcha. And holy crap- she got upset when bad things happened. She must be bi-polar. Of course MJ never got upset when things went wrong with Peter. She sat around giggling all the way.



Well, she certainly shifted in her ego-tripping and hot temper to being understanding of Peter. But yes, she didn't develop far enough. But then neither did MJ, or Aunt May or anyone else except Flash and Harry, and their development was due to storylines that demanded it. Developing supporting characters simply was done when Gwen was around if it cut inbto the action.



Okay- off the top of my head- ASM #127 she's freaked out over seeing a murder, then the next day she's claiming it didn't happen. She's nearly killed in ASM #136 and if you accept her knowing Peter's secret as canon, then her not bringing it up is pretty freaky. During the first clone saga she gets upset over Peter spending time with Gwen. Geez- a guy's dead girlfriend returns to life and MJ is upset because he isn't paying enough attention to her. Ya think he might have other things on his mind? She turns down Peter's proposal with nothing more than her wanting to date other men. Great girl. Then a few issues later she says to herself that she still digs Peter. But does she do what a normal person would do and tell him and try to work things out? Nope. She continues playing games. Need more?

When she returns from Florida, she, while supposedly knowing Peter's secret imagines him and Spidey as two different people. That's stable. Then there's the breakdown she has after admitting she knows Peter's secret. Her "origin" when she explains that she had to develop a new "persona" cause she couldn't hack that her parents were unhappy. She wasn't abused or strung out on drugs or forced to run away. She had parents who yelled at her and each other. OH MY GOD. Need more? She's afraid of Spidey's black suit because Venom scared her. Yeah. That's a girl with some backbone. Meanwhile in ASM #103 Gwen is kidnapped by a 25 foot creature and told she's going to be mounted by jungle man Kraven- yet she's none the worse for wear. Yeah- she was a total wimp. I could continue to rip MJ up, but guess what- Despite the things I'm mentioning, I'm NOT going with your ridiuclous argument that these things make her a weak character as you're saying with Gwen.



A wuss with Gwen. Okay. So Peter feeling bad because he made mistakes or wasn't as successful as HE WANTED TO BE is Gwen's fault. And Peter didn't stand up to MJ. He tried to hide his continuing as Spidey as long as he could. When MJ split on him after her traumatic experience of being kidnapped (Another show of strength on her part) Did he stand up and say they should work things out? Nope. When he goes out to LA to see her what does he do? Just tells her he'll wait for her forever. Yeah. Not wussish at all.

And I'll say this: with Gwen Peter kicked the living crap out of every villain he came across, and a good number of heroes to. With MJ he gets stomped by every punk on the street. Begs Electro for his life, Let's Venom go free numerous times because he's afraid of him, and even does the same with Carnage, a serial killer. And let's not forget that MJ convinced him to unmask. No- MJ didn't suck the life out of him at all.



I said before that it's fine with me that you prefer MJ. But if you're trashing another character in the process and making assertions it's good if you can back them up. Excelsior.

Well, I've tried to remain polite thru this and surrender that you're entitled to your opinion and I to mine. But you don't seem to have enough control over yourself to keep a matter of PERSONAL OPINION from becoming a personal attack with a liberal amount of sarcasm thrown in.

No, I didn't back it up. Did you READ my previous postS where I said I didn't have time to go thru the back issues one by one? Apparently not. I work full time, go to school full time, am a single father of a 12-year-old son. I BARELY have time to read these posts and respond, much less go digging thru back ones to "back up" something that is simply a matter of taste. I like discussing comics, particularly Spider-man but this is getting a bit silly. I'm stating a prefefence and you're coming out swinging with "Prove it! Prove it!" Maybe on Christmas break, I'll go thru the back issues and actually list the number of times Pete and Gwen are happy with, then on the outs with each other to "back up" my opinion. Maybe I'll list all the times Gwen cries over Peter and Peter acts like an idiot over her (and not in a good way).

I suppose in your eagerness to find something of mine to make a sarcastic remark about, it completely eluded your attention when I repeatedly stated "to ME" and "in my opinion". As to the spoiled part, Gwen is an only child to a single elderly father. She is always dressed like Barbie (of the period). Do you think she might be a bit of a princess? Maybe a little spoiled? Did she never strike you as the kind of person who would unquestioningly choose her father's side over Peter's any day? She did to me. And again, I can't specifically point to any one issue. It's just an impression I formed as I read more of her. That's something most people are capable of doing: forming opinions based on general impressions without actually pointing to any specific thing. But I guess your logic is that "she loved her father = she couldn't have been a spoiled daddy's girl." As for the Pete being a momma's boy remark, I'll use deductive reasoning and assume you're refering to Aunt May and not point out that Pete's mom was actually dead thru the series.

Again another impression I got was one of a cycle of them being happy with each other/unhappy,sad,worried over the course of each 5 issues or so. Before making a remark refer to earlier paragraph where I state I don't have time to actually document this on an issue by issue basis. THAT'S why I call Gwen bi-polar.

As for character development: What did Gwen do for a living? MJ danced at a club or 2 and took pics to make some bread. What was Gwen's favorite thing to do? MJ's was dancing, listening to music, having a good time. And later, the whole thing with her relationship with her parents, knowing Pete was Spidey, these things fleshed out her character even more, gave reason for her being the "party girl" as cover for deeper emotions. The most character development Gwen got was during Sins Past. That was the only time for me she became more than 2-dimensional.

Gwen returning from the dead: *Sigh* Ok, scenario: You have a girl who you've been dating for a while and really like. Suddenly her old boyfriend, believed killed in the war, turns up and youre suddenly relegated to understudy. Well, I'm CERTAIN you'd have no problem with that! Sheesh!

I actually did look thru essential aSm #7 for a couple of things:

#146 4th page Pete tells gwen he loves her. In the space of one panel she goes "And you...love me? Peter, you DO still LOVE ME, don't you?" Remember, he JUST SAID HE LOVES HER. She runs into the house. BI-POLAR!!!

#147 page 4: Pate calls MJ and apparently he can't come to see her soon. She says "No listen. Thats ok, Tiger. Catch you when you get back." Really acting like a ***** towards Pete, eh? Then when Anna asks her what is wrong she goes from being down to "acting" (key word) happy. This adds depth to her character and gives weight to her "covering up" old hurts with the party girl thing.

#153 page 5: Pete basically tells MJ where she can stick it and MJ begs him not to leave. I'd call that standing up to MJ. I don't know what YOU'D call it, but I'D call that standing up to her. There are other examples but as I said I've already spent too much time on this silly subject.

As for Peter being a wimp, Gwen told him she didn't care how little money he had and he STILL whined about "How could she love a schlub like me?" When did MJ EVER bring out that sort of reaction in him? Please tell me.

Yes, MJ ws terrified of Venom! Like you wouldn't be were he for real!

And Pete>villains when he was with Gwen and he is<villains with MJ. Are you suggesting that being with MJ makes him weaker? Are you serious? Maybe YOU should put a series of punctuation marks! And when did he face Venom when he was with Gwen? Exactly! You're comparing apples and oranges!

Anyway, you've sucked the fun out of this discussion (much as you probably do a room just by walking into it! Just a general impression!t: - sorry, reaction to all the acculated sarcasm!).

have a great time putting together a well-researched rebuttal. I'm moving on to more interesting topics!

Oh, by the way, I noticed your Kung Fu references. Do you study? I've been out of Wing Chun for a while due to school but have done a few Saturdays at a local MMA studio recently and enjoy that a lot!

Anyway, cheers!

 

[Sloth7d]

:heart:
But to be fair, Gwen Stacy could be written just as ****ty and hot as these two. But I agree. Outside of the **** suits, MJ definately looks slightly(just slightly) more attractive than Gwen would if she was in the first pic instead of MJ.

 

[Sloth7d]

I dislike blondes. no real reason, just do.

I agree, but only because most blondes think because they are blonde that they're Gods gift to men. It gives them this "miss popular girl" attitude that is not worth the time.

 

[Kevin]

I forgot to mention, I have no problem with Black cat. I've always liked her, but millar really made me love her in MKSM.

 

[Kevin]

And I don't find her blonde. I don't care what people say, I will never accept her as platinum blonde. her hair is, to me, white. yes, it's basically platinum blonde, but I don't care, it's white.

 

[Sloth7d]

And I don't find her blonde. I don't care what people say, I will never accept her as platinum blonde. her hair is, to me, white. yes, it's basically platinum blonde, but I don't care, it's white.

People consider that blonde????
I always considered it white aswell. Or silver.

 

[Kevin]

yeah, some people, not all, consider it blonde for some reason.

 

[Dragon]

Well, I've tried to remain polite thru this and surrender that you're entitled to your opinion and I to mine. But you don't seem to have enough control over yourself to keep a matter of PERSONAL OPINION from becoming a personal attack with a liberal amount of sarcasm thrown in.

No, I didn't back it up. Did you READ my previous postS where I said I didn't have time to go thru the back issues one by one? Apparently not. I work full time, go to school full time, am a single father of a 12-year-old son. I BARELY have time to read these posts and respond, much less go digging thru back ones to "back up" something that is simply a matter of taste. I like discussing comics, particularly Spider-man but this is getting a bit silly. I'm stating a prefefence and you're coming out swinging with "Prove it! Prove it!" Maybe on Christmas break, I'll go thru the back issues and actually list the number of times Pete and Gwen are happy with, then on the outs with each other to "back up" my opinion. Maybe I'll list all the times Gwen cries over Peter and Peter acts like an idiot over her (and not in a good way).

Wow. For someone with so little time on their hands you sure as hell typed one long-assed parargraph to explain that you have no time.

I guess it's let's put things into perspective time again. This is a debate about comic book characters. No one is demanding you take time away from family or work to engage. I'm just saying if you're going to state something, know what you're talking about.

I suppose in your eagerness to find something of mine to make a sarcastic remark about, it completely eluded your attention when I repeatedly stated "to ME" and "in my opinion".

Bull. Going over your posts, you almost never state that you're speaking from opinion. You simply assert your non-facts as facts. And even more comically, you try to "interpret" scenes in ways that the narrative clearly contradicts; like people being "surprised" at seeing Gwen dancing, or MJ having kissed Flash before when they never even dated. Saying you simply like MJ better is stating your opinion. And that's fine. Stating that Gwen did things that you only imagine she did, and doesn't appear on the page is assertion of false facts, which I'm saying back up if you say it.

As to the spoiled part, Gwen is an only child to a single elderly father. She is always dressed like Barbie (of the period). Do you think she might be a bit of a princess? Maybe a little spoiled? Did she never strike you as the kind of person who would unquestioningly choose her father's side over Peter's any day? She did to me.

So.. You weren't actually reading the comics. Only looking at the pictures. Gwen was how she dressed and looked. Not what she said and did. Good going.

And again, I can't specifically point to any one issue. It's just an impression I formed as I read more of her. That's something most people are capable of doing: forming opinions based on general impressions without actually pointing to any specific thing.

Yes. It's called prejudice. Way to go.

But I guess your logic is that "she loved her father = she couldn't have been a spoiled daddy's girl."

Yes. A girl can love and respect her dad without blindly following his orders, which was never the case with Gwen and Capt. Stacy. Anyway, he never made any ridiculous demands of her and always loved Peter. The only exception was when he was under the influence of the Brainwasher device.

As for the Pete being a momma's boy remark, I'll use deductive reasoning and assume you're refering to Aunt May and not point out that Pete's mom was actually dead thru the series.

YES. YES. I'm referring to the woman who raised Peter as her son- not the woman who died when Peter was a toddler, and thus had no hand in his upbringing. His Aunt May is his mother.

Again another impression I got was one of a cycle of them being happy with each other/unhappy,sad,worried over the course of each 5 issues or so. Before making a remark refer to earlier paragraph where I state I don't have time to actually document this on an issue by issue basis. THAT'S why I call Gwen bi-polar.

And that's why I say you don't know what you're talking about. To clarify (And I can refer you to the issues if you'd like) There was never a point where Gwen and Peter were unhappy with each other. There were points (too many) when each worried the other was unhappy with them. And yeah, there were times when Gwen called Peter to task for his weirdness. Why wouldn't she? MJ certainly has.

You can't call Gwen bi-polar simply because she reacted to bad things in a bad way. A bi-polar person has extreme reactions to things that don't warrant it- becoming too sad, and then suddenly too happy. Again show me ONE instance when this happened with Gwen. You don't even have to tell me an issue. Just give me the situation and I'll know the issue.

As for character development: What did Gwen do for a living? MJ danced at a club or 2 and took pics to make some bread. What was Gwen's favorite thing to do? MJ's was dancing, listening to music, having a good time.

Gwen was a college student, majoring in science. Her family was well-off enough so that she didn't have to work to get by. What did she enjoy doing? Well we know she also enjoyed hanging out, partying and dancing. We know she was into activism, engaging in various student protests. We know she was driven, getting involved in politics after her dad's death. We know she liked to look out for her friends. Oh and, she enjoyed being alone with her man. She was certainly loving, affectionate and very sexy, not to mention frickin' gorgeous. Yeah. Who could stand being around her?

And later, the whole thing with her relationship with her parents, knowing Pete was Spidey, these things fleshed out her character even more, gave reason for her being the "party girl" as cover for deeper emotions.

And that was what- 12 YEARS after Gwen's death. Comic books had shifted in their method of story telling by allowing issues to be devoted to supporting characters in the 80's. Didn't happen in Gwen's day- otherwise we'd have seen alot more development with her (And good development, since Stan kicks the ass of the writers who followed him). And to be honest, that whole MJ origin thing doesn't resonate. It only explained her past, and did nothing with her future. I still think MJ is a mostly superficial character with only very minute development over the past 33 years since Gwen died.

The most character development Gwen got was during Sins Past. That was the only time for me she became more than 2-dimensional.

Her commiting a single act isn't character development. Gwen's essential character was unchanged. She just did something screwed up. And, if you take SP as canon, so did MJ. If anything, MJ did something far worse in leaving those kids in danger.

Gwen returning from the dead: *Sigh* Ok, scenario: You have a girl who you've been dating for a while and really like. Suddenly her old boyfriend, believed killed in the war, turns up and youre suddenly relegated to understudy. Well, I'm CERTAIN you'd have no problem with that! Sheesh!

Hilarious. First, let's be clear- someone missing and presumed dead is light years away from you SEEING THE PERSON LOWERED INTO THE GROUND.

And of course MJ had a right to be upset. But she should have put Peter's feelings in that situation ahead of her own.

I actually did look thru essential aSm #7 for a couple of things:

#146 4th page Pete tells gwen he loves her. In the space of one panel she goes "And you...love me? Peter, you DO still LOVE ME, don't you?" Remember, he JUST SAID HE LOVES HER. She runs into the house. BI-POLAR!!!

Bi-polar. Of course. How petty of Gwen to be shaky having just been told that she was murdered and is a clone of her former self. It isn't like they were having a conversation about a movie they'd just seen and then she freaked out.

And I don't think you did read it- because Peter didn't tell her he loved her. Gwen said she loved him and Peter didn't respond. And geez- after having been told she's a clone and that she's been gone for two years, Peter's love for her is the only stable thing she has to hold onto. But Peter isn't sure of that either. So it's not unreasonable for her to be upset about that.

#147 page 4: Pate calls MJ and apparently he can't come to see her soon. She says "No listen. Thats ok, Tiger. Catch you when you get back." Really acting like a ***** towards Pete, eh? Then when Anna asks her what is wrong she goes from being down to "acting" (key word) happy. This adds depth to her character and gives weight to her "covering up" old hurts with the party girl thing.

But in issue #148 page 14 she comes down on Peter and demands he make a choice between her and Gwen.

#153 page 5: Pete basically tells MJ where she can stick it and MJ begs him not to leave. I'd call that standing up to MJ. I don't know what YOU'D call it, but I'D call that standing up to her. There are other examples but as I said I've already spent too much time on this silly subject.

Well, if you really wanted to come up with a way of concluding this, you should have come stronger than that. Peter's "standing-up" to MJ was because of her telling him he wasn't worth fighting for. Something which Gwen NEVER said to him. And thus didn't require such a response.

And- in your pointing out this example, you actually dug your own grave regarding the Gwen bi-polar thing. Because MJ's behavior there is beyond extreme for such a petty thing as being left at a party. Made FAR-FAR worse if you believe that she knew Peter's secret. One moment she's putting Peter down, and the next she's all weak and apologetic. And at the party in that issue, MJ is hardly the "fun girl" you've been describing. At points being a downright b itchy drag.

As for Peter being a wimp, Gwen told him she didn't care how little money he had and he STILL whined about "How could she love a schlub like me?" When did MJ EVER bring out that sort of reaction in him? Please tell me.

What you seem to be missing is that neither Gwen or MJ are responsible for Peter's lack of self-esteem. Peter's reaction to GWEN'S REASSURANCE (a good thing) is HIS problem, not hers. His feelings about himself are issues that he needs to deal with. And to me, writing Peter as being down on himself (components of his character) is far more preferable than his turning into a bi tch everytime a tough villain shows up. With Gwen, Peter didn't care about how pwerful a villain was. He found the way to kick their ass. With MJ, he's laid down, bent over and took it without any lubricant.

Yes, MJ ws terrified of Venom! Like you wouldn't be were he for real!

Being afraid isn't the issue. Gwen was afraid. She just didn't let it stop her from moving forward. MJ being scared of a costume is pretty pathetic.

And Pete>villains when he was with Gwen and he is<villains with MJ. Are you suggesting that being with MJ makes him weaker? Are you serious? Maybe YOU should put a series of punctuation marks!

Like you- I'm commenting on Peter's behavior with the two. I'm saying that Peter during his relationship with Gwen was stronger and tougher. More determined. Since he's been with MJ, he's been a joke. And again- MJ = idiotic unmasking.

And when did he face Venom when he was with Gwen? Exactly! You're comparing apples and oranges!

He faced villains as powerful as Venom. The Rhino is as powerful as Venom. The Vulture and Scorpion, easily as viscious as Venom. And Ock and the Goblin could and would KILL Venom. Those villains all gave Spidey a hard time and he found a way to beat them. And FREAKIN' BEN REILLY found the way to defeat Venom. So Peter certainly could have done it- he just didn't.

Anyway, you've sucked the fun out of this discussion (much as you probably do a room just by walking into it! Just a general impression!t: - sorry, reaction to all the acculated sarcasm!).

I know. I'd doubt your being pounded senseless would be enjoyable for you (Or... would it? )

have a great time putting together a well-researched rebuttal. I'm moving on to more interesting topics!

Onward.

Oh, by the way, I noticed your Kung Fu references. Do you study? I've been out of Wing Chun for a while due to school but have done a few Saturdays at a local MMA studio recently and enjoy that a lot!

I've practiced for over 30 years. I started the same year I began reading Spidey, in 1973. The memories..

Anyway, cheers!

Cheers to you

 

[Venomfan]

He faced villains as powerful as Venom. The Rhino is as powerful as Venom. The Vulture and Scorpion, easily as viscious as Venom. And Ock and the Goblin could and would KILL Venom. Those villains all gave Spidey a hard time and he found a way to beat them. And FREAKIN' BEN REILLY found the way to defeat Venom. So Peter certainly could have done it- he just didn't.

theres no way ock or GG could take Venom, spider-man can take them out, and venom is pretty much just a tank spider-man with weakness to sound. which neither ock or GG would ever know about, and it seemed fairly obvious that ben riley beating venom was just to try and make him more popular

 

[CTFFFan]

Edit.

I disagree.

 

[Norman Osborn]

theres no way ock or GG could take Venom, spider-man can take them out, and venom is pretty much just a tank spider-man with weakness to sound. which neither ock or GG would ever know about, and it seemed fairly obvious that ben riley beating venom was just to try and make him more popular

Either Ock or Gobby would *****slap Venom....hell they're intelligent enough to convince him to beat himself up!!...that's right!..I said it!!

 

[Kevin]

so... are we done yet? Simple fact of the matter, MJ and Gwen are both different characters. In certain situations they've acted differently. They are two girls who were writen to have feelings, and act certain ways. Beliveable and human ways at that. I've come to a point in reading spidey to never knock MJ or Gwen because it'd be pointless. As I already said, gwen went nowhere as a character, but as Dragon said, it was different back in the 70's. Who knows where she'd be, or what type of backstory she'd have now. And as for MJ not devoloping any farther, that, as most people know, are the writers' faults for only focusing on the main character and the villain of the month stories. and writer today, they only focus on the "here and six months from now" rather than the long term.

Now, I want to say how I feel about People thinking of Peter being a joke while with one girl and not the other. Is it impossible for the villians he's faced before to not have gotten stronger? Are we taking into accont that every writer wants to build suspence for the hero to tell a better story? I don't view Peter as weak, but Will admit that others may, and to those who do, I will say that you are something else if you think It's because he's with MJ, but at the same time, I will say you are correct.

I'd like to think that I'm a writer so, from that point of view, I have to tell a story in a certain way. MJ is Peter's wife. With that on my mind, I have to plan what would go on in the hero's, this case being peter's, head. CONFLICT! It told a better story when he couldn't beat the villian so easily, (He never could by the way) so when he's just beaten, he needs motivation to bring him back up to beat the villian. In many cases that motivation was not wanting to leave his wife a widow. By the way, I think this is why people say that Peter couldn't go on, wouldn't continue being spider-man without MJ.

I like it when he needs motivation to win sometimes, whether it be gwen, mj, may, baby may, ben, uncle ben, or anyone in the spider-man cast. Yeah, he could just do it within the goodness of his heart, and in fact does, but to continue being spider-man to help others, and to continue the fight for a life , whether it's his or someone elses, are two different things, but both needed. It's always been like that. "I made a promise, with great power--blah-blah-blah." and "I have to survive so-blah-blah-blah." The point I was trying to make was that Peter couldn't be overpowered (I would've gotten to the point sooner if I didn't lose what I was trying to say, sorry) so some things had to change. No one wanted him to be Superman, able to beat everyone, because there would be no conflict in it. Peter is an everyman and that doesn't stop with him turning into spidey. So while some people say he's weaker, i'll say he more conflicted.

P.s. I have a feeling--no, i'm sure I used Conflict in the wrong way (I may have opinions, but you'll never hear me say i'm smart) so replace the word with drama or whatever word you think i'm trying to say. Also, i'm sure i spelled alot of things wrong, so please, just ask me what i was trying to say. Also, This goes Out the both Spider - man AND Dragon. I'm not choosing sides, i'm just trying to put another prospective out there... DAMMIT! did I just use that last word wrong, too?

 

[Dragon]

theres no way ock or GG could take Venom, spider-man can take them out, and venom is pretty much just a tank spider-man with weakness to sound. which neither ock or GG would ever know about, and it seemed fairly obvious that ben riley beating venom was just to try and make him more popular

And Spidey could take Venom as well. But the very lazy, very idiotic writers wanted to create an arch villain for Spidey without trying. Ock, the Goblin and others had to do it the hard way- by being the focus of great stories. With Venom the writers (mostly Michelinie) simply had Peter give up time after time.

 

[Dragon]

Now, I want to say how I feel about People thinking of Peter being a joke while with one girl and not the other. Is it impossible for the villians he's faced before to not have gotten stronger? Are we taking into accont that every writer wants to build suspence for the hero to tell a better story? I don't view Peter as weak, but Will admit that others may, and to those who do, I will say that you are something else if you think It's because he's with MJ, but at the same time, I will say you are correct.

Of course I'm not actually saying that MJ is the cause of Peter's being weaker. I said it going along with Spider - Man's logic that Gwen was somehow the cause of Peter's self esteem issues. But I do maintain that writers since the 80's onward have portrayed Peter as being too weak.

I absolutely believe that Peter should have dramatic battles where he's tested to his limits, and yes, he even has to lose at times (Which he always has). But more often than not since the 80's, (coincidently after he got married) Spidey simply got his ass thrashed with no hope of winning, even by characters not even approaching his power. It's usually luck, or the intervention of someone else that saved him. This is very reasion why a weak-assed character like Venom actually eclipsed Spidey in popularity. Why is Venom popular? Because he beat Spider-Man repeatedly and with increasing ease.

 

[Kevin]

Venom sucks ass.

 

[gliderpilotgirl]

My word, Dragon, it must have taken you an hour to type up that post. You are truly Gwen's biggest fan.
You know what..reading some of the older comics. I really think some people suffer from an idealized perception of Gwen. Half the comics I've read, she's either crying about Peter, or moping about something. Writers are prone to it too, it explains all the recent stuff, like Spider-man Blue.
MJ is more human. And you know what, they did cook some stuff up to bring them together, but even if they did, it's in the past. The question is about how to go forward. Most of the time for the marriage not working, it is directly the writers fault. If they wanted to, they could have made it work. I have recently been reading some of the pre and post clone Saga stuff, the pre-stuff was TERRIBLE. And completly the writers fault. The after stuff, before the reboot, showed what could be done. They had MJ go back to school. And Peter. They had some promise, but no, instead of working with what they had, they had to try to shake things up by "killing" MJ and setting Peter up with other women. Just like they are threatening to do now. *sigh*