According to Iron Man, killing the occasional criminal is exactly what the Avengers are supposed to be doing. That's why he hired Wolverine, remember?
Wolverine is there to kill the people Americans won't kill.
What do you mean when you say The Flash of the Avengers Dread?
Maybe I am oversimplifying. But by that I meant that in a sense, the Flash is one of the more "down to Earth" heroes of the JLA, at least the "Big 7" that most refer to. Even Batman, who has no powers, operates in Gotham from the shadows and to the ordinary citizen is removed. The Flash in Central City was their "local boy". He knew the 'burg like his left hand. Despite being one with a fast quip, he had a load of experience at the superhero game, more than enough to keep him competent even next to the Big Three or even ocean kings like Aquaman or cosmic cops like Green Lantern.
Spider-Man, in the New Avengers, as originally solicted and hinted at in 2004, could have become something similar. His placement alongside Iron Man & Capt. America could have improved his rep, at least in some circles. While Spidey is a superhero who has battled everything from costumed freaks to robots to demons, dinosaurs, alien brawls, even been to other dimensions, he considers himself an "everyman", a hero who isn't "above" the trials and troubles of ordinary citizens. A hero who struggles to pay his own rent on time, or who unmasks for a dying kid just because he asks (or, in a classic story, is menaced by...suburbia). Not to say that the other heroes on the roster didn't relate, but in some ways not the same as Spidey.
Of course, such a role for Spider-Man would be different from the 40 or so years he spent as a "loner" who was too immature, inexperienced, and/or annoying to cut it with most super-teams, even on the occasions when he was interested. It would be refocusing and reframing to make sure Spidey made this step without losing his roots. It was never going to be easy, not after so long and after so much was invested in the older stories. But, the manner with which Bendis & Co. went about it was pooched at best.
There's a difference between what Logan does and what Frank does. Frank is flat out insane. Logan's just brutal.
[IN REFERENCE TO GHOST RIDER AS AN AVENGER]
I don't know? Why not GR?
Logan technically also supposedly struggled with his "inner rage". Anyway, if Logan isn't insane than he has less excuse. I'm not saying there are never scum who all but deserve death, or situations where there is no choice, but if Logan is set upon by a random gang of thugs, his first option is usually to slaughter them, when he could easily just TKO them.
Why not Ghost Rider? Because he's bad for PR for any sane team. Only a place like LA could accept him as a team hero.
I don't understand why killing is this huge no-no, anyway. I mean, there's no reason for the Avengers to slaughter mobsters during a meeting like Frank would, but for threats that require lethal action, I think it's silly for the characters and the fans to look at murder as some unmentionable thing. Ellis had Tony kill a guy in his arc on Iron Man. He was left with no other reasonable option. That's okay with me.
Like I said, the difference is that not every situation calls for killing. Killing when you must is one thing. Wolverine very rarely shows mercy or any sort of real struggle against his rage after the mid 90's. I mean he is the best at what he does and all that, but with him you have an Avenger who often kills first and asks questions later. Once upon a time, that sort of rep used to bother other heroes; Spider-Man consistantly used to complain about that in team-ups. Now, Logan can gut Hand ninja in front of Spidey as he webs some up and he doesn't say boo. He all but cheers it.
I prefer to see the heroes try to find other ways. Too often, it seems like things are written off as having no other reasonable options when, in reality, they do have reasonable options. There are situations that require killing, but I think it's a lazy solution 9 times out of 10.
I can excuse it if we at least get to see some kind of internal conflict in the character afterwards, though. Regardless of whether they kill or not, the vast majority of heroes are not like Logan or Frank. Taking lives has to take a toll on them.
Yeah, I understand this reasoning.
I remember Tony cursing the man he killed for making him do it, too. And everyone prefers the heroes to find other ways. I'm just saying that sometimes, the writer can put them into a situation where it's the only route to take, and I don't throw my comic down in disgust. I can accept it.
I don't either, depending. I'm just saying, the Avengers went from a team who would just TKO a villain's goons to one where some do, and then you have Wolverine and Echo slaughtering them left and right and no one gives so much as a stern look.
According to Slott he's never killed anyone willingly.
According to Greg Pak, too. Pak invented the infamous "Hulk Math" that Hulk seemingly "sees" to magically avoid maiming people unless he deliberately and consciously wants to hurt that specific person.
