MCU vs thread....controversy and chaos

I
Doctor Octopus wins. Next up:

Daredevil
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vs Ronin Hawkeye

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Who you got peeps?

Daredevil. Turns off the lights, game set and match.
 
Daredevil vs Hawkeye:

Hawkeye should take this, Ronin gear or not. Ultimately he's just better at the non-powered hero routine. Also, Daredevil doesn't have a magic "shut out lights in vicinity" power.

Basically, this is Daredevil against Better Bullseye, both in the "has a broader skillset and superior gear" sense, and the "is lacking in gaping psychological flaws" sense.
 
Daredevil vs Hawkeye:

Hawkeye should take this, Ronin gear or not. Ultimately he's just better at the non-powered hero routine. Also, Daredevil doesn't have a magic "shut out lights in vicinity" power.

Basically, this is Daredevil against Better Bullseye, both in the "has a broader skillset and superior gear" sense, and the "is lacking in gaping psychological flaws" sense.


Not sure if I agree with the last statement - Ronin Hawkeye has a bunch of psychological flaws and while he may be very casual about murdering Yakuza thugs he may hesitate to slice up a more heroic character.

Also, Hawkeye has been KOd by Black Widow while Daredevil survived a fight with Elektra and numerous Hand ninja assassins. When he fights smart and uses his super senses he's very hard to beat. If this was Hawkeye with a bow, I'd say the advantage to the Avenger would be pretty big - but with a sword ? Not convinced that Hawkeye has what it takes.
 
*cough* Hawkeye losing to Black Widow doesn't really matter here, because Black Widow would beat the crap out of Daredevil, too. :p She's pretty much the gold standard for "non-enhanced martial artists" in the MCU currently.
 
Daredevil

Clint having a sword instead of an arrow works in the favor of Matt. He'd be able to close the distance and win the fight.
 
*cough* Hawkeye losing to Black Widow doesn't really matter here, because Black Widow would beat the crap out of Daredevil, too. :p She's pretty much the gold standard for "non-enhanced martial artists" in the MCU currently.
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Don't do that..............don't be that guy. I'm sorry but I don't see Black Widow beating Daredevil and please don't let me elaborate why. I can actually see him ending that fight pretty quickly.
 
*cough* Hawkeye losing to Black Widow doesn't really matter here, because Black Widow would beat the crap out of Daredevil, too. :p She's pretty much the gold standard for "non-enhanced martial artists" in the MCU currently.

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Don't do that..............don't be that guy. I'm sorry but I don't see Black Widow beating Daredevil and please don't let me elaborate why. I can actually see him ending that fight pretty quickly.

Strangely I agree with Docker. In a purely hand to hand fight, even with weapons I see Daredevil beating Widow. Give her guns or tasers and it's a different story. Daredevil surviving a fight with Elektra and Hand assassins is a very impressive feat.

While DD may not have quite her level of skill he is very very tough for a human, and his super senses give him some advantages - and he's certainly stronger than she is.

I don't think he could beat her easily or quickly but in a knock down drag out fight my money's on DD.
 
The short version: Black Widow routinely beats up better quality of mooks than Daredevil, and she does so with less effort and while taking less damage. That's just the facts of their respective appearances. If you don't like that, then complain to the directors that decided Matt would be left exhausted and bleeding by fighting a bunch of biker gang punks, while Natasha can do the same to commandos without taking serious injury.
 
The short version: Black Widow routinely beats up better quality of mooks than Daredevil, and she does so with less effort and while taking less damage. That's just the facts of their respective appearances. If you don't like that, then complain to the directors that decided Matt would be left exhausted and bleeding by fighting a bunch of biker gang punks, while Natasha can do the same to commandos without taking serious injury.


This is not a question of me disagreeing with directors choices - although you would be surprised how tough bikers can be, and now that you mention it, Black Widow dropping a bunch of Crossbones' or Batroc's or Hydra's thugs ( let's face it, the thugs in A of U, were pretty useless, even the killer robot thugs) with a single kick or throw is rather unrealistic...well she does that until the plot needs her to struggle for the purpose of suspense e.g. Civil War in the market scene.

Anyway. I'm relying on 1) Matt's performance against Ninjas, who IMHO are top shelf quality mooks, a cut above even Crossbones' or Batroc's mercs. I give Widow points for beating up aliens though, although not really using hand to hand ( mostly guns and tasers).

AND
2) Matt's performance against Elektra - who I still
believe could beat Widow in straight up hand to hand or with melee weapons.

3) While the basis of your comparison is indicative ( person A can beat person B because person C more easily) it isn't perfect - in part because it's tough to compare anonymous thug characters, because we operate on a lot of assumptions, e.g. we assume the Crossbones' mercs have military level competence in hand to hand - because we're talking about hand to hand here, and at the same time that the Bikers don't. ( if we're being realistic, in some ways bikers could be tougher in a fist fight as at least some of them would be high on meth, good luck punching them then).

Another part of this issue, as I alluded to before, mooks and goons serve a particular story purpose, they're cannon fodder for the hero characters. As such, hero characters are pretty much always going to beat them. I mean that Widow took on a small horde of Chitauri ( or dropped larger men with a single kick in Civil War) seems ludicrous, but the story needed it to happen so.....

The problem with Widow is that we don't see her take on anyone who is of relative skill and still regular human - she really exists to clear a path through anonymous henchmen. She seems to be able to defeat Hawkeye, but it's hard to say if either of them are really trying when they fight.

If we had onscreen evidence of Widow vs Elektra, Widow vs the Dora Milaje, or Widow vs someone ( other than Clint) with a high level of physical skill but still human, that would be a better basis for comparison. We do see her fight Rumlow, who has a bunch of gadgets and some serious scarring, and he beats her down pretty quickly.


Anyway, the poll will decide. Salut!
 
Strangely I agree with Docker. In a purely hand to hand fight, even with weapons I see Daredevil beating Widow. Give her guns or tasers and it's a different story. Daredevil surviving a fight with Elektra and Hand assassins is a very impressive feat.

While DD may not have quite her level of skill he is very very tough for a human, and his super senses give him some advantages - and he's certainly stronger than she is.

I don't think he could beat her easily or quickly but in a knock down drag out fight my money's on DD.
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I'm going to vote Ronin Hawkeye, leaving us with a 2-2 tie.
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Next up:

Antman and the Wasp
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vs Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw
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Who you got peeps?
 
Yeah, I agree that Scott and Hope take a majority here. We already saw that Scott was able to one-shot Cull just by stepping on him as Giant-Man and while Maw is powerful, he's also a glass cannon, meaning that he's vulnerable to getting taken out by a surprise attack from either of the pair.

Scott really did get a massive buff in Endgame though, to the point where he was casually one-shotting Leviathans more easily than Hulk did. I guess he'll need it though, if he's gonna hang with Kang.
 
I mean, IIRC, we don't actually clearly see that Cull was *dead* from being stomped on, just, well, stomped. He might have only been dazed and temporarily incapacitated. That's still a solid performance against a Hulk-class brick, mind. That said, don't forget that the Giant Man form seems to come with stresses and time limits. The bigger Scott goes, the less well he can maintain it. . . and I get the impression that while he is strong as a giant, he's not as proportionately *tough* as the average brick.

Anyway, Ant-Man and the Wasp vs Cull and Maw? Team Shrink should take this. Pym particle shurikens vs people with no exotic defense = a couple of splattered ex-villains. Its not the only option, but its the standout one.
 
I mean, IIRC, we don't actually clearly see that Cull was *dead* from being stomped on, just, well, stomped. He might have only been dazed and temporarily incapacitated.

Well, we don't see him later on in the battle and nor do we see him getting dusted like we do with Maw, Proxima and Corvus, so I think it's pretty clear he was killed there.

That's still a solid performance against a Hulk-class brick, mind. That said, don't forget that the Giant Man form seems to come with stresses and time limits. The bigger Scott goes, the less well he can maintain it. . .

That didn't seem to be an issue in Endgame though. He was bigger than ever in the final battle and spent a good chunk of the battle at that size before shrinking to re-start Luis's van.

As I said before. Scott definitely seemed to get a buff in EG.
 
Off topic but
did Zemo wear his mask at all in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier? I don't recall him wearing it but he is going to the Raft so maybe he escapes it?..
 
Off topic but
did Zemo wear his mask at all in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier? I don't recall him wearing it but he is going to the Raft so maybe he escapes it?..

He wore it briefly during the shoot out in Madripoor.
 
It is such a let down if that is the last we see of him.
 
I'm going to vote Ronin Hawkeye, leaving us with a 2-2 tie.
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Next up:

Antman and the Wasp
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vs Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw
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Who you got peeps?


Team shrink takes this. Wasp KOs Maw pretty easily, and Scott stomps Cull.

I'll say that Maw and Cull can win this about 2/10 times, but 8/10 the bugs are going to come out on top.
 
What!?! I think Antman and the Wasp win ONLY because of Scott. I don't think Wasp would hurt Maw at all. Her punches won't even affect him though her stings might. Plus it's not like he will just stand there and let her hit him.
 
What!?! I think Antman and the Wasp win ONLY because of Scott. I don't think Wasp would hurt Maw at all. Her punches won't even affect him though her stings might. Plus it's not like he will just stand there and let her hit him.


Maw doesn't have any particular durability feats, or feats against attacks he couldn't see coming. Wasp can smack him in the back of the head shrink, and repeat - and then there's the blasters.
 
Or, again, the pym particle shurikens. Neither of them have any defense known against "I just got shrunk to an inch tall, and also I then immediately imploded because I am not a properly shielded living subject".
 
Well the Spiderman in that gif is the strongest, toughest, play that funky music white boy of all Spider Men. Also, that's evil disco Spider Man who is much more aggressive and vicious than usual mopey Maguire.

No doubt Shang Chi is fast skillful and tough, but based on that trailer he's going to last about 2 seconds against bully Maguire.

This fight could end up as a literal curb stomp.
 

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