MCU vs thread....controversy and chaos

Okay I need to point out that you seem to be going off the comic book versions.

Have you seen any films that Bucky appears in? He has a bunch of superhuman feats of strength ( although admittedly he heavily favours his bionic arm in hand to hand combat), but also durability ( surviving massive falls unharmed , leaping off buildings , taking full on punches from Iron Man ) and speed ( outrunning cars). If that's normal human where are you from, Krypton ? If all he had was a bionic arm then he wouldn't have lasted long against Cap or Black Panther in hand to hand, and he certainly did. Clearly Bucky has a similar level of enhancement to Cap.

I don't recall him ever lasting long (by himself) in hand to hand against anyone super-strong other than Cap, who was too nostalgic to really go after him. His fight against Black Panther was blink and you miss it with Bucky mostly just trying to run away and Iron Man tossed him around like a rag doll (yes, he survived, but so have plenty of other people Iron Man fought). Don't recall specifically how 'massive' any of his falls were, but surviving ridiculous falls is a fairly common trait even in supposedly human characters so it doesn't mean much to me unless it's really explicitly called out as truly extraordinary (like the scene where Cap jumps with no parachute). (Hell, the biggest fall I can think of that Bucky survived would be the very first one from the train - the one that happened when he very clearly and definitively had not yet been enhanced.)

I will agree 'normal human' was the wrong phrase to use. Obviously he must be enhanced to some degree. He is faster and stronger than characters like Widow, Hawkeye, Falcon, etc, and if he weren't enhanced somehow, he'd be dead/dying of old age by now, anyway. But I've never seen any reason to believe his enhancement was anywhere near the level of Cap's and his fighting prowess - at least outside of fighting normal humans - is pretty much all about the arm.


What ?Near Hulk level strength? Based on what ?
Drax and Gamora easily burst free of fully grown Groot's tendrils. I struggle to think of any significant strength feats other than impaling and smashing a bunch of Sakaarans.

You cannot compare MCU Groot to Mr Fantastic or Ms Marvel - because they don't exist in the MCU yet.

Maybe Hulk level is overestimating him. It's hard to say exactly what level it is, but considering how effortlessly he rips through prisons, tosses dozens of trained soldiers around simultaneously like a child playing with toys and literally lifts a guy who clearly weighs several hundred pounds at least with just two 'fingers', I don't think there's any doubt that he's dozens if not hundreds of orders of magnitude stronger than Bucky and certainly Sam.

Also, whether Mr. Fantastic/Ms. Marvel exist yet in the MCU or not is completely irrelevant. I'm just using their names as a shorthand to convey a certain kind of ability that Groot clearly possesses - an ability which means, among other things, that it would be almost impossible for Bucky to stay out of Groot's reach. And also that any damage Bucky could do to Groot would be temporary at best.

What feats does Rocket have in aerial combat? Other than keeping distance from a giant monster or angry planet tendrils? None. Sam has evaded air to air missiles..

He doesn't need any. He's not a flyer. But I look back at the camp fight scene in Guardians two, and I don't see any hope in hell of a guy like Falcon actually getting a lock on that level of speed and evasion. But vice versa - I have no problem believing Rocket can come up with something that can track Falcon.


However you have a point that Rocket is a superb tactician but his feats are against no name goons like the Ravagers and Ronan's Sakaran thugs. Sam and Bucky are in a different weight class.

If Rocket has some particularly cool gadgets he and Groot might win, but otherwise this is going to be a very tough fight.

And the Nova Corps. And I don't automatically accept the idea that the Ravagers and Sakarans are just total pushovers that offer no proof of capability. Especially not when we're talking here about Sam and Bucky. Not Steve. Not Stark. Not Natasha. Not Fury. Like I said, they're great soldiers. But they're dependent on what they have to start with - they have zero potential for pulling some unknown ace out of their sleeve and their tactical successes are almost exclusively as followers and/or hidden assets with the element of surprise.
 
I don't recall him ever lasting long (by himself) in hand to hand against anyone super-strong other than Cap, who was too nostalgic to really go after him. His fight against Black Panther was blink and you miss it with Bucky mostly just trying to run away and Iron Man tossed him around like a rag doll (yes, he survived, but so have plenty of other people Iron Man fought). Don't recall specifically how 'massive' any of his falls were, but surviving ridiculous falls is a fairly common trait even in supposedly human characters so it doesn't mean much to me unless it's really explicitly called out as truly extraordinary (like the scene where Cap jumps with no parachute). (Hell, the biggest fall I can think of that Bucky survived would be the very first one from the train - the one that happened when he very clearly and definitively had not yet been enhanced.)

I will agree 'normal human' was the wrong phrase to use. Obviously he must be enhanced to some degree. He is faster and stronger than characters like Widow, Hawkeye, Falcon, etc, and if he weren't enhanced somehow, he'd be dead/dying of old age by now, anyway. But I've never seen any reason to believe his enhancement was anywhere near the level of Cap's and his fighting prowess - at least outside of fighting normal humans - is pretty much all about the arm.


Maybe Hulk level is overestimating him. It's hard to say exactly what level it is, but considering how effortlessly he rips through prisons, tosses dozens of trained soldiers around simultaneously like a child playing with toys and literally lifts a guy who clearly weighs several hundred pounds at least with just two 'fingers', I don't think there's any doubt that he's dozens if not hundreds of orders of magnitude stronger than Bucky and certainly Sam.

Also, whether Mr. Fantastic/Ms. Marvel exist yet in the MCU or not is completely irrelevant. I'm just using their names as a shorthand to convey a certain kind of ability that Groot clearly possesses - an ability which means, among other things, that it would be almost impossible for Bucky to stay out of Groot's reach. And also that any damage Bucky could do to Groot would be temporary at best.

He doesn't need any. He's not a flyer. But I look back at the camp fight scene in Guardians two, and I don't see any hope in hell of a guy like Falcon actually getting a lock on that level of speed and evasion. But vice versa - I have no problem believing Rocket can come up with something that can track Falcon.


And the Nova Corps. And I don't automatically accept the idea that the Ravagers and Sakarans are just total pushovers that offer no proof of capability. Especially not when we're talking here about Sam and Bucky. Not Steve. Not Stark. Not Natasha. Not Fury. Like I said, they're great soldiers. But they're dependent on what they have to start with - they have zero potential for pulling some unknown ace out of their sleeve and their tactical successes are almost exclusively as followers and/or hidden assets with the element of surprise.


One of the interesting things about human observation is that it's unique to each individual - I've seen 5 witnesses to the same event give different evidence in court.

What I'm saying is that you are taking away some very different information from Bucky's feats - if you have indeed seen "Captain America the Winter Solider " and "Civil War" - Bucky is completely uninjured from at least a 100 foot fall onto a neighbouring rooftop, and yes he rolls at the end, but if a real human did that, their ankle bones would be coming out their ears. He also jumps off a building, onto the street to escape Black Panther - and then runs away, outpacing a bunch of cars.

Having seen Bucky and Cap fight, fall and run, they are roughly equivalent - with Bucky's metal arm being even more durable (bulletproof) and capable of smashing concrete.

In Winter Solider - Cap jumps onto the helicarrier, at least 100 feet below and rolls out of it - that just ain't possible. He gets blasted off the bridge, smashes into a bus losing his shield in the process, which then crashes and gets up a few seconds later, unscathed.

I could take the time to list all the falls Bucky has taken - or point out that yes people have survived punches from Iron Man.....people like Thor ! And as for Bucky's fighting prowess, you clearly went away from his fight scene with Cap on the main street ( before Cap knows who he is) with a very different impression than me.

You might read some articles which describe just how strong Captain America has to be to pull off the feats he does in his films - e.g. in Civil War he lifts a guy by his ankle and slams him into a pillar - in Age of Ultron he goes toe to toe with Ultron and throws a motorcycle with enough force to smash a large jeep, while riding it, which means he also has to redirect the forward momentum of the bike. And of course he holds down a helicopter that's trying to lift off without being ripped apart.

What's Groot's big strength feat again ? Lifting a guy by putting something up his nose - believe it or not, if someone shoves something up your nose, you'll become very compliant and easy to move - I saw a Policewoman do this with a very large drunk and a ball-point pen.

As for ripping through prisons ? During the escape from the Kyln he tears off the cover of the
box that holds the battery Rocket needed, otherwise he smashes a few drones, throws a Nova
Corps guy off the guard tower, and that's about it. Most of the drones get taken out by Rocket
once Drax chucks him a gun - again both Drax and Gamora were able to easily break free
and tear right through Groot's tendrils. I think you are drastically overestimating Groot's strength and durability - and he's unlikely to be very durable against fire, given that he's made of wood.

You cannot compare MCU Groot to comic book Mr Fantastic or Ms Marvel - I put to you that MCU versions of characters are quite different to their comic book counterparts. You can't compare them because you simply don't know how stretchy an MCU Ms Marvel or Mr Fantastic would be. You could compare Groot to the FF movies' Mr Fantastic, but he's easily much more pliable and stretchy.

Rocket's evasion against the Ravagers on Berhart worked because he used the cover of the trees to his advantage, it was dark, and he took them by surprise. How did he do against Nebula's blaster ? I think it's unlikely that he's bulletproof, so all Sam or Bucky need to do is bust a cap in his furry ass.

I will say that if Rocket knew exactly who he was fighting and had a bunch of prep time and gadgets he's got a chance. Although none of that made a difference against the Ravagers in the end. He and Groot were still taken prisoner. Groot and Rocket's best feats are still against no name goons, while Bucky's best feats are against Cap, the best fighter in the MCU. Sam's feats are not so impressive, but at least against Crossbones' elite mercenaries rather than just Ronan's cannon fodder. Sam does have some feats against Iron Man and War Machine, during the airport fight in Civil War, but he doesn;t come close to taking them out.

In the end, I'm not saying that Rocket and Groot could never beat Sam and Bucky, but Rocket would need significant prep time and better gadgets than he used against the Ravagers. In a straight up fight, if Bucky and Sam have weapons they're going to wipe out Rocket and Groot.

However, regardless of what you or I think, the votes will settle this.Cheers,
 
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I'm not going to go point for point on that post since we're not going to agree and you're right that the votes will determine the outcome anyway, but I will say two more things:

1) I don't know why you're so hung up on Ms. Marvel and Mr. Fantastic as I've literally already said I wasn't comparing Groot directly to them and they're totally irrelevant to the discussion, but at this point I wish I hadn't used their names in the first place. Let me just reiterate one last time: I *only* mentioned their names as a shorthand for 'super stretchy powers', which Groot undeniably has and which are undeniably both useful and versatile. Whether his stretchiness is comparable to whoever you like doesn't matter because I never said it was, I just said he has stretchy powers combined with great strength and durability/regeneration, which is a powerful combination since he can not only dish it out and take it but also very easily prevent his opponent from disengaging and moving 'out of reach'.

2) You're extremely eager to write off every secondary villain in the Guardians movies as 'canon fodder', yet you describe Crossbones' henchmen as 'elite mercenaries'. I'd call that an obvious double standard with no real justification anywhere in the films since they all serve the same narrative purpose of 'people we barely know who get their asses handed to them a lot' and Ronan's fanatics, the Ravagers and the Nova Corps are all supposed to be widely known and feared/respected - not to mention filled with tons of aliens who on the whole seem to be significantly stronger than humans (almost all aliens in the Guardians films seem to range from mildly strong to musclebound freak to walking god levels of strength, with a very few exceptions).
 
MCU Winter Soldier is definitely superhuman BUT Groot is still on another level. He impaled about 10 of Ronan's soldiers with his arm, lifted them off the ground and used them to beat a dozen more to death with. Plus he can tank bullets and hits from Drax, it took multiple cuts from Gamora's extremely OP sword to hurt him and he has a healing factor that can regrow limbs.

MCU Falcon has submachine guns, missiles and makes great use of his bulletproof wings BUT Rocket can fly too, is a better tactician and has far more firepower.
 
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I'm not going to go point for point on that post since we're not going to agree and you're right that the votes will determine the outcome anyway, but I will say two more things:

1) I don't know why you're so hung up on Ms. Marvel and Mr. Fantastic as I've literally already said I wasn't comparing Groot directly to them and they're totally irrelevant to the discussion, but at this point I wish I hadn't used their names in the first place. Let me just reiterate one last time: I *only* mentioned their names as a shorthand for 'super stretchy powers', which Groot undeniably has and which are undeniably both useful and versatile. Whether his stretchiness is comparable to whoever you like doesn't matter because I never said it was, I just said he has stretchy powers combined with great strength and durability/regeneration, which is a powerful combination since he can not only dish it out and take it but also very easily prevent his opponent from disengaging and moving 'out of reach'.

2) You're extremely eager to write off every secondary villain in the Guardians movies as 'canon fodder', yet you describe Crossbones' henchmen as 'elite mercenaries'. I'd call that an obvious double standard with no real justification anywhere in the films since they all serve the same narrative purpose of 'people we barely know who get their asses handed to them a lot' and Ronan's fanatics, the Ravagers and the Nova Corps are all supposed to be widely known and feared/respected - not to mention filled with tons of aliens who on the whole seem to be significantly stronger than humans (almost all aliens in the Guardians films seem to range from mildly strong to musclebound freak to walking god levels of strength, with a very few exceptions).


I could reply to all of that but TBH we're still not going to agree, so it wont get us anywhere. I will agree that the Sakaarans , Ravagers and Crossbones mercs do serve the same narrative purpose - but otherwise let's just agree to disagree and move on.

You may end up being on the right side of the votes anyway.
MCU Winter Soldier is definitely superhuman BUT Groot is still on another level. He impaled about 10 of Ronan's soldiers with his arm, lifted them off the ground and used them to beat a dozen more to death with. Plus he can tank bullets and hits from Drax, it took multiple cuts from Gamora's extremely OP sword to hurt him and he has a healing factor that can regrow limbs.

MCU Falcon has submachine guns, missiles and makes great use of his bulletproof wings BUT Rocket can fly too, is a better tactician and has far more firepower.

Disagree about Rocket's firepower- it depends on the circumstances - whereas Sam always has 2 automatic pistols, a number of rockets and at least one drone built into his suit. If Rocket has prep time he certainly could make some fearsome weapons ( eg the Hadron enforcer) but doesn't necessarily carry them around all the time ( eg at the end of GOTG vol 2 he had his flight rig, a spacesuit, a rifle, a force field and some mini explosives.

But again, I think I might be on the wrong side of the vote this time, which is fine. Cheers. Next battle please.
 
Well since you did say please.............
Rocket and Groot win 4-1. Next up:

Starlord and Gamora
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vs Antman and the Wasp
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Who you got people?
 
Scott and Hope

Shrink tech is a huge advantage and will help them avoid getting hit. Not to mention that it's quite easy to knock out Peter.
 
I'd actually bet on Quill and Gamora.

Quill's a serious threat with his gadgets and blasters. We've seen him outfly Iron Man, take out a rookie Spider-Man and plant explosives on Thanos. I think he'd keep Hope occupied for a while.

Meanwhile, Gamora is the MVP here. The most skilled daughter of Thanos with super soldier level physicals and an extremely OP sword. Even as Giant Man, I think she could cut Scott down before he could land a hit on her.
 
I agree Gamora is powerful and skilled enough she could probably take on Scott's Giant man and win but I just don't see how either she or Quill would have any answer whatsoever for shrink tech. The mini fighter so small you can't see them is realistically one of the most powerful and useful abilities in the mcu, despite the fact that Scott and Hope are more often used for comic relief. I think Scott and Hope take this one as long as Scott isn't dumb enough to try to end the fight by going giant.

(Let's remember also that these two aren't just limited to shrinking themselves, either - they could shrink Gamora's sword so she can't use it or enlarge an army of bacteria for them to fight, etc.)
 
Scott and Hope

Shrink tech is a huge advantage and will help them avoid getting hit. Not to mention that it's quite easy to knock out Peter.

Agreed. Hope is a huge threat here with her shrink tech and blasters- and Scott can literally be a huge threat. Can't see Peter landing a shot with his guns or Gamora landing any sword strikes. If Scott and Hope fight smart at all they take this !
 
If Scott and Hope fight smart at all they take this !

Hope is competent but Scott never fights intelligently.

As Ant Man the guy has has trouble with tiny obstacles like windscreen wipers and he's struggled against weaker opponents like Falcon and Black Widow. As Giant Man he's a threat but he's far too slow. Quill could keep him busy and Gamora could cut him down.
 
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Hope is competent but Scott never fights intelligently.

As Ant Man the guy has has trouble with tiny obstacles like windscreen wipers and he's struggled against weaker opponents like Falcon and Black Widow. As Giant Man he's a threat but he's far too slow. Quill could keep him busy and Gamora could cut him down.

I think he did pretty well against Falcon, given his lack of experience.

If he doesn't use Giant Man and relies on shrinking he can still take them out IMO.

Agree to disagree I guess, we'll see how the votes go.
 
Scott & Hope for the win.

Not only is the shrink tech enough of an ace in the hole to takedown Peter & Gamora but even with Gamora's exceptional combat skills you still really only need to hit her with one of these
5537841-0656641249-giphy.gif


Or the red disc to shrink her.
 
I really think Scott is the weak link in this fight.
  • At regular size, he's not much of a fighter.
  • At Ant Man size, he makes terrible use of his powers and has trouble with things like windscreen wipers. He struggled to beat Black Widow and Falcon.
  • At Giant Man size, he's too slow to hit Quill and Gamora could cut him down.
Hope is a skilled fighter who uses her dad's tech intelligently but I don't think that's enough to overcome Gamora's superior skills and superhuman physicals plus Quill's firepower and flight.

Even with Gamora's exceptional combat skills you still really only need to hit her with one of these
5537841-0656641249-giphy.gif

A shrunken gas tanker isn't exactly standard gear that Scott carries around. Hell, he thought it was a water truck. And he needed Cap to throw the disk for him.
 
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Scott and Hope win 4-2. I really think you guys kind of underestimated the most dangerous woman in the galaxy and Quill's leadership, though it's kind of awkward and different...........but whatever. Next up:
The Vision
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Vs The Abomination
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Who you got people?
 
Vision. No contest.

So far the only characters we've seen damage vibranium with raw strength are Thor and Thanos. Abom isn't on that level so he can't hurt Vision.

Plus Vision has flight, his density shifting and the mind stone. Blonsky's outclassed.
 
Vision

Vibranium durability and density shifting would make short work of Blonsky.
 
Vision for the win easily, im just picturing Abomination as this Ultron bot.
giphy.gif


I really think Scott is the weak link in this fight.
  • At regular size, he's not much of a fighter.
  • At Ant Man size, he makes terrible use of his powers and has trouble with things like windscreen wipers. He struggled to beat Black Widow and Falcon.
  • At Giant Man size, he's too slow to hit Quill and Gamora could cut him down.
Hope is a skilled fighter who uses her dad's tech intelligently but I don't think that's enough to overcome Gamora's superior skills and superhuman physicals plus Quill's firepower and flight.



A shrunken gas tanker isn't exactly standard gear that Scott carries around. Hell, he thought it was a water truck. And he needed Cap to throw the disk for him.

I should have added that I didn't actually mean the truck itself as standard gear more just the Pym discs of which neither Peter or Gamora would have any idea of what they did or how to counter them.
 
Fine! :argh: Vision wins 3-0.
Next up: the battle of the bugs:

The Amazing Spiderman
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Vs The Ant Man
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Yeah I definitely would have voted for Vision there.
 
Spider-Man wins fairly easily.

Like I said before:
  • At regular size, Scott's not much of a fighter.
  • At Ant Man size, he makes terrible use of his powers and has trouble with things like windscreen wipers. He also struggled to beat Black Widow and Falcon.
  • At Giant Man size, he's too slow to hit Spidey and vulnerable to having his legs webbed together.
Meanwhile, MCU Peter's extremely strong and durable plus he can outmanoeuvre Scott with his webs, spider sense and agility.
 
Spider-Man wins fairly easily.

Like I said before:
  • At regular size, Scott's not much of a fighter.
  • At Ant Man size, he makes terrible use of his powers and has trouble with things like windscreen wipers. He also struggled to beat Black Widow and Falcon.
  • At Giant Man size, he's too slow to hit Spidey and vulnerable to having his legs webbed together.
Meanwhile, MCU Peter's extremely strong and durable plus he can outmanoeuvre Scott with his webs, spider sense and agility.
But he did beat them. One an assassin, the other is the new Captain America. He also beat a room full of thugs as well. I think it's being greatly exaggerated his defeats in small size. Didn't he also surprise Spiderman?
Not to mention Spiderman has been beaten by normal people as well so I don't think it would be easy at all.
 
Spider-Man

We saw in CW that Peter's spidey senses allowed him to see ant sized Scott and that was before he mastered them in FFH. Peter would be able to easily keep track of Scott and turning into Giant Man wouldn't be much of help either.
 
But he did beat them. One an assassin, the other is the new Captain America. He also beat a room full of thugs as well. I think it's being greatly exaggerated his defeats in small size.
  • Falcon was winning the fight until Scott managed to break Sam's goggles and escape.
  • Widow beat him. Their fight ended with ant sized Scott being tasered and slammed into a wall.
  • And Scott has trouble with tiny obstacles like windscreen wipers when he's ant sized. He can't fly on his own and he's not particularly agile.
As Ant Man he can't beat characters with human level strength and durability like Widow and Falcon and his best feat is taking out powerless no name thugs. He's got no chance against a superhuman like Spider-Man.

On the other hand, if Scott goes Giant then he's strong and durable enough to make this fight a challenge but he's too slow to hit Peter and we know from Civil War that webbing his legs together works. Plus if I remember right, he can't maintain that size for long?
 
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