MCU vs thread....controversy and chaos

[Docker2.0]

This is a post full of rage at the decline of the MCU at the hands of ****ty writers.

Loki from any MCU movie 10/10. Being shanked with an Asgardian dagger enough times is going to disable Druig.

Loki from his series, where he's a pathetic, incompetent moron.... 5/10, so long as Sylvie can save his ass.

Just seeing thus post stirs up my unbridled hatred for the Loki show. The writers took 0 % effort to make Loki's character or abilities match any of the films.

Remember the bit where he conjures a blanket in limbo, because it's chilly ? HE'S A ****ING FROST GIANT WHO'S UTTERLY IMMUNE TO COLD !!!!!

Then there's Druig - everyone's favorite emo Eternal.

Wasn't he cute with Makaari ? WASNT HE ****ING CUTE WHEN HE MIND CONTROLLED THOSE PEOPLE INTO BECOMING A CULT FOR 500 YEARS, AND USED THEM AS HUMAN PUPPETS TO " KEEP THEM SAFE" ?

Can't believe more people didn't have a massive problem with this part of the film. Guess modern audiences are dumb, but not dumb enough to be entertained by Eternals- not a bad movie ( not a good one either although it had some good moments) but some very confused morality.

Sersi ( while planning to kill a being that will create whole suns, solar systems and planets full of life)
" The cycle of violence has to end."

Because you know better than beings billions of years old who are directly responsible for all life in the universe...right Sersi. **** off film !

IMHO Ikaris was right all along.

Oh wait, how does Druig do in a fight against Loki... well I'm going to assume his mind control won't work on a sorceror. Physically they're probably well matched, in terms of strength and durability ( maybe an edge to Druig there) but Loki's illusion powers make a surprise shanking highly likely.

Okay, my rage has dissipated.

So....................tell me your opinion of the Loki show.....................

 

[Batmannerism]

W

Minor correction: Cable did demonstrate powers, both telekinesis and force fields. They were not super high end, mostly just acting as a supplement to his "Highly skilled cyborg with future guns" schtick, but they were there and they would be useful. In particular, his ability to raise a shield is part of why Plan "Iron Fist The Ground" is unlikely do anything IMO.

( I suppose you could argue "those might not be powers, they could just be tech effects of his cybernetics", but that would be splitting hairs. Even if this were true, they would still be powers available to Cable, and its much more likely that those are intended to be mutant powers, just like in the comics version. )

Have to disagree and split hairs there. This isn't comic book Cable and honestly those look like cybernetic tech effects to me.

The force field projected from a device on his mechanical arm and the gun was the only thing he demonstrated anything that looked like TK.

If you have got some other Cable TK feats, I'll buy it, but when what you suggest is TK is just related his gun ( when TK would have been super useful a bunch of times during the film) it's looking more like tech to me.
Thor doesn't have telekinesis, but Mjolnir always returns to his hand because it's enchanted to do so - not great comparison but some sort of technology, seems more plausible in the movie context

Regardless Cable and Deadpool take this. Cable by himself would give them a good fight, but adding Wade just makes it a lock.

 

[Docker2.0]

Loki wins. Next up:


Agatha Harkness

vs the GOAT: Ebony Maw

That guy sure is pretty!!.....................

but who you got peeps?!

 

[Bayne]

Vague as the exact limitations of the Maw's abilities may be, it's still ultimately just a form of telekinesis by all appearances. Agatha's magic offers far more possible avenues of attack and, unlike Dr. Strange, she doesn't hesitate to hurt and kill people. Indeed, her favorite spell is to literally just suck the life out of people which she was able to do to an entire coven of witches even while she was tied up.

At the end of the day, she nearly trashed Wanda who is canonically stated to be the most powerful magic user in existence and who was one of only two or three people who posed a genuine direct threat to Thanos. And the only reason Agatha lost in the end was because of a magic user specific get out of jail free card that the Maw (who doesn't do magic) can't use.

I say Agatha takes this at least 7 or 8 times out of ten (the other times being when the Maw actually strikes hard and fast instead of talking too much - a completely unexpected concrete block to the head should probably still put Agatha down.)

 

[Luigi]

Agatha got the Wizard of Oz treatment with a car and walked away unscathed, so I wouldn't worry about her chances in this fight.



Agatha

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I'll simply throw a vote of confidence in the choice made by my compatriots and vote for her...

AGATHA HARKNESS

 

[Batgirl0202]

Yup I'll go with Agatha as well. Despite his power, Maw was depicted as a bit of a joke in IW. Agatha seems much more fierce and ruthless...

Agatha all the way.

 

[metaphysician]

Agathy Harkness vs Ebony Maw:

There is the perpetual issue of "We've never actually seen Agatha at 'normal' power level", but even so. At worst that reduces things to a fast draw, and that's the best I'm going to grant her. Also, unlike Strange, her "witch" magic seems less dependent on precise physical movements, which was really the only reason Ebony May won that particular fight.

At the power level shown in WandaVision? Yeah, there isn't any debate, she would cream the Maw.

 

[Batmannerism]

Agatha's magic seems more versatile.

Maw's biggest weakness is his tendency to talk his opponents to death which allows them to get in a shot or two ( fatally so, on the spaceship).

As such, he's probably going to find himself dead before he can hit her with a big enough object to kill or incapacitate her.

Agatha 9/10.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Agatha completely dominated this match so badly, I feel bad for not waiting to see Docker's vote:

VISION

vs

EGO: THE LIVING PLANET​

 

[Docker2.0]

This should be a landslide but you know what......................I'm going Vision. He should be able to phase through to Ego's brain and become solid and end it. So dare I say Vision easily.............

 

[Batmannerism]

This should be a landslide but you know what......................I'm going Vision. He should be able to phase through to Ego's brain and become solid and end it. So dare I say Vision easily.............

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction. Phase into brain and splat !

Vision's density control makes him either super durable or untouchable - against Ego, who is limited to physical attacks, that's a trump.

Dont know how Vision hasn't beaten the Hulk more often in the comics, for the same reasons, because on paper Hulk shouldn't be able to do anything to him.

BTW, where was it ever established that MCU Vision's body was made of vibranium ?

The vibranium Ultron took from Klaw he used for plating on his Prime body and his doomsday weapon - also if Vision was made of vibranium why would he even need to use increased density or phasing against physical attacks ( I guess other than Thanos and the Black Order who have "plus one" weapons). I've heard people argue that Vision is made of vibranium, but that seems unlikely to me.

 

[Bayne]

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction. Phase into brain and splat !

Vision's density control makes him either super durable or untouchable - against Ego, who is limited to physical attacks, that's a trump.

Dont know how Vision hasn't beaten the Hulk more often in the comics, for the same reasons, because on paper Hulk shouldn't be able to do anything to him.

BTW, where was it ever established that MCU Vision's body was made of vibranium ?

The vibranium Ultron took from Klaw he used for plating on his Prime body and his doomsday weapon - also if Vision was made of vibranium why would he even need to use increased density or phasing against physical attacks ( I guess other than Thanos and the Black Order who have "plus one" weapons). I've heard people argue that Vision is made of vibranium, but that seems unlikely to me.

Dr. Helen Cho: It's beautiful. The Vibranium atoms aren't just compatible with the tissue cells, they're binding them. And SHIELD never even thought--

Ultron: The most versatile substance on the planet and they used it to make a Frisbee. Typical of humans, they scratch the surface and never think to look within. [Ultron uses a laser to break open the scepter's blue gem, and a yellow gem that was inside floats out and lands in his hand. He places it in the head of the body]

^This exchange comes after Ultron tells Cho that her cradle *can* create life, she just didn't know it because she lacked the proper raw materials and after Nick Fury says Ultron is using the vibranium he took to create multiple different things.

'Made of vibranium' may be arguable as a sort of technicality, but the vibranium was unquestionably used to create Vision's body.



And on the subject of the fight, yes I agree Vision phases through Ego's core and the fight is over.

 

[Zarex]

Dont know how Vision hasn't beaten the Hulk more often in the comics, for the same reasons, because on paper Hulk shouldn't be able to do anything to him.

Vision's disruption attack - imo the best finishing move in comics - has been thwarted by Class 100 types. The first one I can recall who did it was recently resurrected Wonder Man back in the day. And as also shown in this panel, old timey comic book solar powered cells didn't have unlimited range.

BTW, where was it ever established that MCU Vision's body was made of vibranium ?

The vibranium Ultron took from Klaw he used for plating on his Prime body and his doomsday weapon - also if Vision was made of vibranium why would he even need to use increased density or phasing against physical attacks ( I guess other than Thanos and the Black Order who have "plus one" weapons). I've heard people argue that Vision is made of vibranium, but that seems unlikely to me.

I found this quote from Age of Ultron:

"The Vibranium atoms aren’t just compatible with the tissue cells, they’re binding them. And S.H.I.E.L.D. never even thought—"
"The most versatile substance on the planet and they used it to make a frisbee. Typical of humans."
―Helen Cho and Ultron[src]

 

[Batgirl0202]

I'll go with Vision as well. If he uses his powers effectively I don't see how Ego would stand a chance...

As for Vision in the comics, it was a wise decision on Marvel's part to have the character plagued by doubt and existential angst. These decisions basically tempered a character who would have been pretty much invincible and difficult to portray with any credible stakes otherwise.

 

[Docker2.0]

I'll go with Vision as well. If he uses his powers effectively I don't see how Ego would stand a chance...

As for Vision in the comics, it was a wise decision on Marvel's part to have the character plagued by doubt and existential angst. These decisions basically tempered a character who would have been pretty much invincible and difficult to portray with any credible stakes otherwise.

That's my problem with the Justice League and DC in general. Who can stand a chance of a team consisting of Superman, Wonder Woman, Shazam, the Flash, Martian Manhunter and the most powerful one of them all, Batman?! I don't know how any of their comics sale because they have every power you can imagine and just ridiculously over powered. But I digress.............won't go on another rant on DC for a minute......

 

[InCali]

Ego has godlike powers. If he so chose, Vision couldn't get anywhere near him. Vision tried to phase inside of Thor and got his butt kicked. Vision would need help to defeat Ego.

 

[Batmannerism]

Dr. Helen Cho: It's beautiful. The Vibranium atoms aren't just compatible with the tissue cells, they're binding them. And SHIELD never even thought--

Ultron: The most versatile substance on the planet and they used it to make a Frisbee. Typical of humans, they scratch the surface and never think to look within. [Ultron uses a laser to break open the scepter's blue gem, and a yellow gem that was inside floats out and lands in his hand. He places it in the head of the body]

^This exchange comes after Ultron tells Cho that her cradle *can* create life, she just didn't know it because she lacked the proper raw materials and after Nick Fury says Ultron is using the vibranium he took to create multiple different things.

'Made of vibranium' may be arguable as a sort of technicality, but the vibranium was unquestionably used to create Vision's body.



And on the subject of the fight, yes I agree Vision phases through Ego's core and the fight is over.

Vision's disruption attack - imo the best finishing move in comics - has been thwarted by Class 100 types. The first one I can recall who did it was recently resurrected Wonder Man back in the day. And as also shown in this panel, old timey comic book solar powered cells didn't have unlimited range.

I found this quote from Age of Ultron:

"The Vibranium atoms aren’t just compatible with the tissue cells, they’re binding them. And S.H.I.E.L.D. never even thought—"
"The most versatile substance on the planet and they used it to make a frisbee. Typical of humans."
―Helen Cho and Ultron[src]

Thank you gentlemen, that's usually the part of Age it Ultron that puts me to sleep, so now I know.

I hate that vibranium has become a magical element that can not only make things nearly indestructible, but can heal spinal injuries and do anything else the writers are too lazy to come up with a valid explanation for.

 

[Batmannerism]

That's my problem with the Justice League and DC in general. Who can stand a chance of a team consisting of Superman, Wonder Woman, Shazam, the Flash, Martian Manhunter and the most powerful one of them all, Batman?! I don't know how any of their comics sale because they have every power you can imagine and just ridiculously over powered. But I digress.............won't go on another rant on DC for a minute......

If you read some decent JL or Superman stories, and there are many, that question will be answered for you.
In the same light who can stand against the combined might of the Hulk and Thor ?

Easy answer, good writers come up with villains who can challenge their heroes ( Superman's most difficult enemy has no superpowers other than being the smartest human alive).

Honestly, I prefer DC. While Superman may be one of the most powerful heroes he's also one of the most relatable because he thinks and acts like a moral man, and doesnt have Batman's angst ( he also has a bunch of weaknesses that his enemies regularly exploit)- with or without his powers, someone people can aspire to be like.

Having said that MCU Cap is probably my favorite live action superhero ( with Batman and Superman tied for #2 ) as he embodies the values of Superman but is grounded enough to be relatable.

 

[InCali]

If you read some decent JL or Superman stories, and there are many, that question will be answered for you.
In the same light who can stand against the combined might of the Hulk and Thor ?

Easy answer, good writers come up with villains who can challenge their heroes ( Superman's most difficult enemy has no superpowers other than being the smartest human alive).

Honestly, I prefer DC. While Superman may be one of the most powerful heroes he's also one of the most relatable because he thinks and acts like a moral man, and doesnt have Batman's angst ( he also has a bunch of weaknesses that his enemies regularly exploit)- with or without his powers, someone people can aspire to be like.

Having said that MCU Cap is probably my favorite live action superhero ( with Batman and Superman tied for #2 ) as he embodies the values of Superman but is grounded enough to be relatable.

Thor and Dr Strange were always my fav Marvel characters from the comics. Thor was sort of the powerful, honorable, decent guy with high ethical standards. The Marvel equivalent of Superman. Dr. Strange was always the underpowered guy who got through by his wits and intelligence. I always thought Captain America was sort of hokey, but he had those Thor qualities in the comics and MCU did a great job with the character.

Plus, I was into Norse mythology and magic. LOL.

 

[Zarex]

That's my problem with the Justice League and DC in general. Who can stand a chance of a team consisting of Superman, Wonder Woman, Shazam, the Flash, Martian Manhunter and the most powerful one of them all, Batman?! I don't know how any of their comics sale because they have every power you can imagine and just ridiculously over powered. But I digress.............won't go on another rant on DC for a minute......

Both major publishers have their share of crazy powerful teams. DC has the various Justice squads (League, Society, League Dark) and the Legion of Super Heroes. But some of Marvel's teams - the Annihilators, the X-Men Extinction Team, the 616 Ultimates, the original Defenders and certain Avengers teams - could also be considered a smidge overpowered. There have been lots of great stories involving these teams, often involving a problem these power house lineups can't punch or blast their way out of.

 

[Batmannerism]

Both major publishers have their share of crazy powerful teams. DC has the various Justice squads (League, Society, League Dark) and the Legion of Super Heroes. But some of Marvel's teams - the Annihilators, the X-Men Extinction Team, the 616 Ultimates, the original Defenders and certain Avengers teams - could also be considered a smidge overpowered. There have been lots of great stories involving these teams, often involving a problem these power house lineups can't punch or blast their way out of.

What does overpowered mean ? It's a criticism people throw out, but what it means is that the writers don't have the skill to provide meaningful challenges for their characters.

It doesn't just mean creating villains who are more powerful than the hero - although that's a common way to deal with it ( which is why Superman has Mongul and Darkseid, why Green Lantern has Sinestro etc.)
But more often good writers create villains who are capable of outsmarting, or putting pressure on people they care about, threatening innocents or playing on their specific weaknesses .


Ever read a Silver Surfer story ? I mean people ***** about Superman, but they're fine with the Silver Surfer, whose cosmic power let's him do just about anything, FFS ! Still, good writers manage to make the Silver Surfer a compelling character, which is why he's so cool that we all want Keanu Reeves to play him.

Having said that, there are some super powers which you really can't give to a hero - like reality manipulation, I mean come on...Scarlet Witch gets a bit sad and enslaves a town or depowers 99% of mutants - that's villain behavior.

Immortality is a tough one too. Somehow Neil Gaiman made the Eternals cool in 2006, and they were literally immortal- as in they were super hard to kill, and if you managed to kill one they got rebuilt by Celestial machinery in their Antarctic city.

So.....my point was "overpowered" is really just a criticism of crappy writing.

 

[Zarex]

What does overpowered mean ? It's a criticism people throw out, but what it means is that the writers don't have the skill to provide meaningful challenges for their characters.

It doesn't just mean creating villains who are more powerful than the hero - although that's a common way to deal with it ( which is why Superman has Mongul and Darkseid, why Green Lantern has Sinestro etc.)
But more often good writers create villains who are capable of outsmarting, or putting pressure on people they care about, threatening innocents or playing on their specific weaknesses .

The first LOSH story I ever read was a reprint of the story in which the sorceror Mordru was accidentally released and the team, which included two young adult Supermen, went back in time to the frikkin' 1950s to get the hell away from him. They were legitimately terrified of Mr. The Merciless. Written by a teen Jim Shooter, the comic did an excellent job showing no matter how tough you are there's always somebody tougher.

The Fatal Five was another fantastic Shooter creation that used to knock the snot out of the incredibly powerful Legion on the regular.

Ever read a Silver Surfer story ? I mean people ***** about Superman, but they're fine with the Silver Surfer, whose cosmic power let's him do just about anything, FFS ! Still, good writers manage to make the Silver Surfer a compelling character, which is why he's so cool that we all want Keanu Reeves to play him.

The Slott/Alldred Surfer series did a wonderful job telling stories about a seemingly omnipotent cosmic hero going on wacky space adventures (with a minimal number of space battles) alongside a regular human gal.

So.....my point was "overpowered" is really just a criticism of crappy writing.

Agreed!

 

[metaphysician]

Vision vs Ego:

I mean, Vision is powerful, sure, and often underrated. He just is also not going to win this fight. He doesn't have the kind of broad area destructive power that Thor had even from the getgo, and I'm very dubious that phasing would work against Ego's cosmic energy. Net result: Vision never even gets a chance to try and attack Ego's brain-core.

There is the Mind Stone, but as I always bring up when Vision enters the arena, he was kind of crap at actually using the Mind Stone as anything but a power source. I don't see that making a difference here, either.

 

[metaphysician]

On the matter of "overpowered", I think to some extent the real issue is design philosophy at DC vs Marvel, both in general and at specific key periods in their history.

Part of the reason that Marvel is generally seen as "not overpowered", for example, is that Marvel has a long history of writing. . . call it 'level appropriate' villains and challenges for their heroes. The Avengers, or the Fantastic Four, or Dr Strange, or the Silver Surfer, may be crazy powerful, but they face challenges at or beyond their limits consistently. They win, because heroes, but they win via courage and cleverness as much as power. They are underdogs, wherein obscene levels of power don't make them invincible gods, so much as just give them the ability to sit at the table and ante up in the first place.

DC, by contrast, had a track record during the really important formative days of having many of its key superheroes radically outpower almost all their opposition. The iconic case being, of course, Superman, where there are entire decades in which Superman was basically God, the only challenge to him resulted from explicit somewhat arbitrary weaknesses like Kryptonite. The underdog needing to use cleverness to overcome a power gap, was his *nemesis*, Lex Luther. . . and he wasn't alone. DC had a somewhat disturbingly large number of cases of "Godlike Hero vs Normal Human Mad Science Genius".

Now, is this necessarily the case today? No, especially since both companies have had crap writing for the past few decades. However, the image still stands. DC is the home of Towering Gods, Marvel is the home of Underdogs.