MCU X-Men - Part 1

[Shoppy]

It's because almost all of the major X-Men, the ones that people really want to see, are white. It's kind of a problem.

I want to see the original five (plus Havok and Polaris) as close to how they were in the 60s comics as possible...

...the next wave (Storm, Colossus, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Thunderbird, Banshee & Sunfire) were all from different countries and backgrounds and i don't think changing the ethnicity of any of them would work...

From the later additions, Bishop and Gateway would be my first choices to add ethnic diversity, and there are other characters where a change in ethnicity might work ..... (Dazzler or Longhsot are my first thoughts there) ... but in general later x-men characters all have a lot of established cultural background that it takes away from the character to change.

Sure the original class come from somewhat more privileged backgrounds and and are all white, but is that not reflective of society and how the problems of the past have fed the present? Wouldn't it be papering over the cracks in the real world to dilute representation of that?

March 29, 2016; Washington Post

The U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling in Brown v. Board of Education, in tandem with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Elementary and Secondary School Act of 1965, abolished the legalized separation of white and black students. But fifty years after passing this legislation, segregation still very much exists today in private schools according to a recent study by the Southern Education Foundation.

The Washington Post published a snapshot of the Southern Education Foundation’s findings, which say in part:

Private schools are whiter than the overall school-age population in most states, particularly in the South and the West.
Black, Latino, and Native American students are underrepresented in private schools, also particularly in the South and West.
Private schools are more likely than public schools to be virtually all-white, defined as a school where 90 percent or more of students are white. Forty-three percent of the nation’s private school students attended virtually all-white schools, compared to 27 percent of public-school students.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I'd rather see a more diverse OG5. I love comic accuracy when it comes to appearance. But as a black Male in America I'd like to see more diverse superheroes. If a few xmen gotta get race bent then so be it. The international ones need to stay the same obviously.

 

[Marvel united]

There is no need to exclude characters if you open up the possibility of racebending. You can have a black Cyclops that is still true in personality to comicbook Cyclops. Changin Cyclops's race doesn't affect the story in any way, but it means you can have that iconic character and still be diverse.

Or he can stay white since that's how he's been portrayed since he was created by Lee and Kirby. I'm against changing any core members. The idea that Marvel has to adhere to a strict guideline for diversity in their X-Men film is ridiculous..I don't think Marvel is going to limit how many characters of a particular race can be included. This is bringing back memories of the people whining for Peter Parker to be race-swapped both when the Amazing Spider-Man was in pre-production (in 2010) and when Homecoming was announced in 2015. And and even as a person of color myself, it is becoming quite ridiculous. Why can't these iconic characters retain their iconic look?

And even when Marvel offers to represent us, someone is still going to complain about there not "being enough" (wheb they're a main character) or how only supporting characters are allowed to be race-swapped. You can't please everyone. Marvel should focus on making an awesome, faithful X-Men movie as opposed to pandering to every minority, trying to check everyone on the list (Like Shikamaru was suggesting) in my opinion at least.

 

[zachthegeek]

And even when Marvel offers to represent us, someone is still going to complain about there not "being enough" (wheb they're a main character) or how only supporting characters are allowed to be race-swapped. You can't please everyone. Marvel should focus on making an awesome, faithful X-Men movie as opposed to pandering to every minority, trying to check everyone on the list (Like Shikamaru was suggesting) in my opinion at least.

Why can’t they do both? True, you can’t please everyone, but you can try to please as many people as you can. Opening up the casting to people of all races, as long as it makes sense within the context of the story for them to be that race, will allow the best actor to get the part. Ideally, this would allow for both racial diversity and an excellent movie that keeps everything fans love about each character. I don’t think a certain quota needs to be filled, but I’d like to see a diverse cast that accurately reflects the world we live in today.

 

[Protar]

Or he can stay white since that's how he's been portrayed since he was created by Lee and Kirby. I'm against changing any core members. The idea that Marvel has to adhere to a strict guideline for diversity in their X-Men film is ridiculous..I don't think Marvel is going to limit how many characters of a particular race can be included. This is bringing back memories of the people whining for Peter Parker to be race-swapped both when the Amazing Spider-Man was in pre-production (in 2010) and when Homecoming was announced in 2015. And and even as a person of color myself, it is becoming quite ridiculous. Why can't these iconic characters retain their iconic look?

And even when Marvel offers to represent us, someone is still going to complain about there not "being enough" (wheb they're a main character) or how only supporting characters are allowed to be race-swapped. You can't please everyone. Marvel should focus on making an awesome, faithful X-Men movie as opposed to pandering to every minority, trying to check everyone on the list (Like Shikamaru was suggesting) in my opinion at least.

An awesome, faithful X-men film requires a diverse cast. Comics have such huge, sprawling, contradictory stories, more akin to a mythological canon than to a traditional novel. Ergo you can't really adapt them directly and shouldn't try. Instead, the important thing is to be faithful to the spirit of the source material. And for the X-men that means diversity. The OG 5 might have been white, but they were representative of the plight of minorities, packaged to be palatable to then-contemporary audiences. In 2018 minorities can tell their own stories.

The original X-men being white is not key and iconic. Professor X's wheelchair is iconic. Cyclops' visor is iconic. Jean Grey's scarlet mane is iconic. But their whiteness never was. Indeed the whiteness of the original five could be said to be the opposite of iconic; they should never have been all white in the first place. The fact that they were was a product of the racist times they were produced in. The lack of diversity in the original comics is not sacred canon that must be respected, it is a flaw that must be rectified in future adaptations.

 

[Marvel united]

Why can’t they do both? True, you can’t please everyone, but you can try to please as many people as you can. Opening up the casting to people of all races, as long as it makes sense within the context of the story for them to be that race, will allow the best actor to get the part. Ideally, this would allow for both racial diversity and an excellent movie that keeps everything fans love about each character. I don’t think a certain quota needs to be filled, but I’d like to see a diverse cast that accurately reflects the world we live in today.

Getting the "best actor" for the part is a debatable subject. Because if the character is Caucasion in the source material, the best actor would be Caucasion as well as embodying the character's personality.

 

[Protar]

Getting the "best actor" for the part is a debatable subject. Because if the character is Caucasion in the source material, the best actor would be Caucasion as well as embodying the character's personality.

What if a black actor embodies the character better than the white actors who try for the part though? Would you accept a less talented actor just so the character could remain white?

 

[Marvel united]

What if a black actor embodies the character better than the white actors who try for the part though? Would you accept a less talented actor just so the character could remain white?

You're assuming that nobody white would be talented enough to play the part which is a highly unlikely scenario. I wouldn't want someone who can't act to play Scott but I wouldn't want someone who isnt white to play the part either. A talented white actor who embodies the character would not be hard at all to come by. Marvel held thousands of auditions for Peter Parker which did include multiple different races yet they still found someone who embodied Peter Parker and was still white like the source material. Multiple kids in fact (going back to the shortlist) The situation you're suggesting would never happen

 

[Shikamaru]

It's not about "checking everyone on the list", it's about it looking believable. It's literally no different than what Homecoming did, difference being more than one teen/young adult has superpowers this time.

 

[MasterCat]

What if a black actor embodies the character better than the white actors who try for the part though? Would you accept a less talented actor just so the character could remain white?

Nah, if a black or Asian actor has the best screen test, give them the role unless it produces a stupid result like Erik Lehnsherr not being an Ashkenazi Jew anymore.
Sometimes race-bending works great, like Michael Clark Duncan as the Kingpin. People just chose a really bad example for this thread.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

If magnetos race gets bent then his origin has to bend with it. By the way Erik lensherr isnt the only name he's ever had. I'm not really a big fan of middle eastern magneto just because it seems a bit tone deaf but I'm sure there are Arabic names that sound like one of his aliases.

 

[Lip]

50+ characters.
One. Black. Woman.

Conservatives: "The X-Men is the most diverse ensemble ever"

 

[Shikamaru]

To be fair, all those X-Men were considered diverse for their time. Claremont's X-Men were very multicultural by 1975 standards.

Which speaks to the importance of race swapping. If Marvel wants to stay true to the spirit of X-Men, race swapping would in a lot of ways be even more comic-accurate than keeping them mostly white.

 

[Zarex]

To be fair, all those X-Men were considered diverse for their time. Claremont's X-Men were very multicultural by 1975 standards.

Which speaks to the importance of race swapping. If Marvel wants to stay true to the spirit of X-Men, race swapping would in a lot of ways be even more comic-accurate than keeping them mostly white.

Yeah, the Giant Sized X-Men International Squad was a big honking deal back in the day. An African, a Russian, a Canadian, a Native American, a German and an Irish character on the same team was a breakthrough at a time when white American males were the overwhelming majority on every superhero squad.

I'm okay with open casting for most of the mutants making their MCU debuts.

 

[Marvel united]

Characters who shouldn't be race swapped- Cyclops, Jean, Wolverine, Kitty Pryde and Colossus. Everyone else is fair game. But the core 5 I grew up reading, I'd prefer to stay white/Jewish

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Jean and cyclops could get race swapped, gambit too. Wolverine and the international heroes should stay the same. There's nothing about cyclops or jean that should make them exclusively white imo.
Psylock should just be Japanese and not a mind swapped white woman in a ninja body. Jubilee should stay the same.
Magneto could go either way, Xavier could change, mystique could be anything although I've had my fill of her.

 

[Marvel united]

Jean and cyclops could get race swapped, gambit too. Wolverine and the international heroes should stay the same. There's nothing about cyclops or jean that should make them exclusively white imo.
Psylock should just be Japanese and not a mind swapped white woman in a ninja body. Jubilee should stay the same.
Magneto could go either way, Xavier could change, mystique could be anything although I've had my fill of her.

To be fair, there's nothing that makes anybody in the MCU who's white exclusively white besides Steve Rogers and Thor. Marvel just decided to stay faithful to the source material with their main heroes. I expect the same for the main X-Men members that have been prevalent on almost every lineup and version of the team through the years. Cyclops in particular has been on almost every incarnation and generation of the X-Men. Logan, Storm and Jean follow behind closely. An argument can be made that Jean's red hair is pretty iconic and I know someone will counter it by saying that white people aren't the only ones who can get red hair but this opens up another whole can of worms.

Again, I'm being reminded of the debates between fans when the Zendaya-MJ rumors came out and In the end, I feel like Marvel still backtracked on that because of the backlash. Kevin Feige and the Writers told two completely different stories for what Michelle was meant to be- but that's a topic for the Homecoming section.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Magneto would benefit greatly from a race swap, particularly Arabic. I agree with the sentiment that his origin needs to be updated. That's one race change that just makes too much sense

Characters who shouldn't be race swapped- Cyclops, Jean, Wolverine, Kitty Pryde and Colossus. Everyone else is fair game. But the core 5 I grew up reading, I'd prefer to stay white/Jewish

Characters like Kitty and Collossus have well-known, established ethnicities, so I agree they should stay the same. And Jean's red hair is iconic, so I think she should stay. I really don't see anything about Cyclops that dictates he stay white. Although my first choice to play him is Chris Pine.

 

[DawnWarrior]

50+ characters.
One. Black. Woman.

Conservatives: "The X-Men is the most diverse ensemble ever"

There's two if you count Domino. So...y'know...yay for Race-lifting I guess.

 

[Protar]

To be fair, there's nothing that makes anybody in the MCU who's white exclusively white besides Steve Rogers and Thor. Marvel just decided to stay faithful to the source material with their main heroes. I expect the same for the main X-Men members that have been prevalent on almost every lineup and version of the team through the years. Cyclops in particular has been on almost every incarnation and generation of the X-Men. Logan, Storm and Jean follow behind closely. An argument can be made that Jean's red hair is pretty iconic and I know someone will counter it by saying that white people aren't the only ones who can get red hair but this opens up another whole can of worms.

Again, I'm being reminded of the debates between fans when the Zendaya-MJ rumors came out and In the end, I feel like Marvel still backtracked on that because of the backlash. Kevin Feige and the Writers told two completely different stories for what Michelle was meant to be- but that's a topic for the Homecoming section.

Your argument seems to be that because the MCU has not race-bent main characters before that they never will. The X-men is the perfect time to break that trend. You keep going on about being faithful to the source material. How many times does it need to be said that a diverse cast is more faithful to the source material when adapting it for modern times? You need to either use minor characters or change the original races. Or a mixture.

 

[Marvel united]

Your argument seems to be that because the MCU has not race-bent main characters before that they never will. The X-men is the perfect time to break that trend. You keep going on about being faithful to the source material. How many times does it need to be said that a diverse cast is more faithful to the source material when adapting it for modern times? You need to either use minor characters or change the original races. Or a mixture.

It doesn't matter how many times it was said because it is not an irrefutable truth. I don't remember me or anyone else conceding that it would be more faithful to race swap main characters. When did this become an indisputable fact? Sure, figuratively it would be faithful to the spirit and themes of the franchise but literally, no, it would not be faithful to race swap ANY character because the broadest definition of the word "unfaithful" is not adhering to what was established in a previous ideal - i.e the X-Men being race swapped to something other than white would be *unfaithful to the source material because they are white. So trying to say that keeping main characters white would be less faithful to the source material is a sentiment that can be challenged and at worst; dismantled entirely.

The X-Men does present a great opportunity for a more diverse cast, you're right but that doesn't mean the most iconic characters are going to change. Nor does it mean they should- because having a white Cyclops and a white Jean Grey does not make all racial diversity in the film meaningless.

 

[Havok83]

Spoiler

50+ characters.
One. Black. Woman.

Conservatives: "The X-Men is the most diverse ensemble ever"

two but point remains

 

[Protar]

It doesn't matter how many times it was said because it is not an irrefutable truth. I don't remember me or anyone else conceding that it would be more faithful to race swap main characters. When did this become an indisputable fact? Sure, figuratively it would be faithful to the spirit and themes of the franchise but literally, no, it would not be faithful to race swap ANY character because the broadest definition of the word "unfaithful" is not adhering to what was established in a previous ideal - i.e the X-Men being race swapped to something other than white would be *unfaithful to the source material because they are white. So trying to say that keeping main characters white would be less faithful to the source material is a sentiment that can be challenged and at worst; dismantled entirely.

The X-Men does present a great opportunity for a more diverse cast, you're right but that doesn't mean the most iconic characters are going to change. Nor does it mean they should- because having a white Cyclops and a white Jean Grey does not make all racial diversity in the film meaningless.

Okay, so the argument becomes which type of faithfulness is more important? Being faithful to the spirit of the source material or being faithful to the literal events and facts of the comic canon. And to me, the answer to that question is indisputable; The MCU has never directly adapted a specific comic book story, so clearly, it is the spirit of the material which is the most important. What the MCU has always done is condense and crystalise the lore and themes of the comics into a tight, defined canon. For the Xmen that means creating a diverse cast and also developing the major X-men characters. The best way to condense this into something which pays homage to both the themes and the major characters is to race change some of them.

I just want you to answer why - of all the uncountable and often massive changes to the source material that the MCU has made - is the race of the characters a sticking point for you?

 

[Marvel united]

Okay, so the argument becomes which type of faithfulness is more important? Being faithful to the spirit of the source material or being faithful to the literal events and facts of the comic canon. And to me, the answer to that question is indisputable; The MCU has never directly adapted a specific comic book story, so clearly, it is the spirit of the material which is the most important. What the MCU has always done is condense and crystalise the lore and themes of the comics into a tight, defined canon.

Using those guidelines, you could create something completely unrecognizable from the source material. What is the themes of Spider-Man? He's a relatable kid dealing with normal problems. Okay, so we'll take that metaphor literally and make Peter a normal kid and turn Soider-Man into a literal school drama. But besides that fact- Marvel DOES use the "facts" of the source material. Hence why Spider-Man wears a red and blue suit ripped directly from the comics, why Steven Strange was a neruo surgeon who injured his hands, why Thor is the son of Odin- why they all retain their original race. The reason why these characters are the way they are is because of the comics. A loose adaption that takes the themes literally and realistically would be something like Josh Trank's F4. Marvel DOES

For the Xmen that means creating a diverse cast and also developing the major X-men characters. The best way to condense this into something which pays homage to both the themes and the major characters is to race change some of them.

Key word: some of them. Not all of them and certainly not people like Cyclops, Jean or Logan.

I just want you to answer why - of all the uncountable and often massive changes to the source material that the MCU has made - is the race of the characters a sticking point for you?

Because I've grown up with these characters looking this way for over a 20 year period. It's no different from me wanting Peter Parker to wear a red and blue suit with web pattern. I want to see these characters portrayed accurately from I've grown to love from years of comics and cartoons that featured these characters

 

[Gamma Goliath]

So say they are perfectly portrayed by actors who aren't white, jean still has red hair scott still has his classic visor and they are executed perfectly. Would you love them any less?