BvS mind vs muscle

[PacificBoy]

All that's left for the government in the MOS universe now is to look anything suspicious that happened in Smallville in the past 33 years. Anything could expose Clark - lack of birth records, the bus story, a money-hungry snitch who saw the Kryptonian battle, etc.

The thing is, earth's existence was threatened in MoS, and very openly at that. Most everyone on earth -- governments, militaries, religious bodies, powerful interest groups -- would have keen interest in the identity of someone who was very much in the thick of that event.

I can't see Lex not eventually finding out as well, given the sheer number of loose ends that could trip up Superman's secret identity.

 

[Shikamaru]

The thing is, earth's existence was threatened in MoS, and very openly at that. Most everyone on earth -- governments, militaries, religious bodies, powerful interest groups -- would have keen interest in the identity of someone who was very much in the thick of that event.

I can't see Lex not eventually finding out as well, given the sheer number of loose ends that could trip up Superman's secret identity.

Exactly. Even within the context of the universe, there is no way Clark could stay hidden.

 

[roach]

I think Superman at the end of MOS is also actively protecting his identity...hence the scene where he trashes the drone.

 

[PacificBoy]

I think Superman at the end of MOS is also actively protecting his identity...hence the scene where he trashes the drone.

I thought the scene was more to show a (now) powerful, purposeful Superman, a superhero who's his own person. A superhero, as well, who could be trusted when he let slip he grew up in Kansas.

The general seems the sort who'd be wary of Superman yet trust his instincts and choose to put faith in Superman -- yet send out field agents and feelers to Kansas, just in case. He might implicitly trust Superman but he's a military man after all. The captain, on the other hand, seems just as likely to fangurl all over Facebook about bumping into Superman in the middle of nowhere and how much hotter he is close up.

 

[Shikamaru]

I think Superman at the end of MOS is also actively protecting his identity...hence the scene where he trashes the drone.

And that's the same Superman who told the military he is 33 and grew up in Kansas. He narrowed the list of suspects down so much by just talking to them.

 

[sf2]

And that's the same Superman who told the military he is 33 and grew up in Kansas. He narrowed the list of suspects down so much by just talking to them.

oops. truly this superman is too honest and naive. i guess he isn't a smart alien in MOS universe.
i guess it's inevitably batman / lex will get him.

 

[DA_Champion]

I don't think the fact that Clark didn't cover his tracks well will come up at all in the sequels. I think Goyer probably had no idea that this was an issue, and will just sweep it under the rug in the sequels. It might come up as an issue if another writer takes over in the future.

When Goyer wrote the lines "I grew up in Kansas" and "I'm 33 years old", he wasn't considering the issue that this would reveal Superman's identity. He was thinking "let's make him American, let's make him American Jesus", and that's about it.

 

[Shikamaru]

Exactly. It's not an in-continuity thing but a plot hole.

 

[roach]

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayl...an-of-steel-early-draft-details-more-20130619

"Obviously we sidestepped the alter ego problem in this movie. We were conscious of that. Obviously it’s not an issue with Lois. Moving forward she’s his secret keeper, and part of the fun for us if we do move forward is they will be involved in a real relationship and she will be part of that, maintaining that fiction," Goyer said, addressing the challenge of how to take on Superman's identity in the sequel. "Part of the fun of doing this though, and Chris has always said this, is that sometimes you write yourself into a corner, but you have to follow it to its logical conclusion and see if you can figure a way out of it."

http://renegadecinema.com/9557/man-of-steel-spoilers-david-s-goyer

"And maybe there are even people in Smallville that know. It’s not explicit, but we imply that maybe people in Smallville have put two and two together."

 

[roach]

http://renegadecinema.com/9557/man-of-steel-spoilers-david-s-goyer

One question asked was about General Zod’s body. This death might serve another purpose down the line: what if the U.S. Government takes Zod’s body and examines it to find a weakness in Superman they can exploit if needed? What if a scientist like Lex Luthor is the man called in to find that weakness?

“I can neither confirm nor deny,” Goyer said when asked about Zod’s body. “But I will say that I did intentionally leave some loose ends, not as sequel bait, but just because I thought they were interesting.”

 

[DA_Champion]

What if the government taxes Zod's body?

What?

Why would superman not hide it properly?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I would be fine with a handful of K-Tech ending up in various peoples clutches... A HANDFUL. However I hope Superman has taken custody of the majority of it (perhaps Zod's corpse as well) and placed it in a... like a fortess, that's only for him... Hmm... Could use a catchy name of some kind.

 

[roach]

I would be fine with a handful of K-Tech ending up in various peoples clutches... A HANDFUL. However I hope Superman has taken custody of the majority of it (perhaps Zod's corpse as well) and placed it in a... like a fortess, that's only for him... Hmm... Could use a catchy name of some kind.

The Super-Cave of Loneliness

 

[Isearch4dope]

Obviously we sidestepped the alter ego problem in this movie. We were conscious of that. Obviously it’s not an issue with Lois. Moving forward she’s his secret keeper, and part of the fun for us if we do move forward is they will be involved in a real relationship and she will be part of that, maintaining that fiction," Goyer said, addressing the challenge of how to take on Superman's identity in the sequel. "Part of the fun of doing this though, and Chris has always said this, is that sometimes you write yourself into a corner, but you have to follow it to its logical conclusion and see if you can figure a way out of it.

LOL....You yourself said it's a movie for the times and you sidestep such a major issue that needed updating in a movie that boasts the question...what if superman existed in our world today? Will be waiting for your logical conclusion Goyer.

And maybe there are even people in Smallville that know. It’s not explicit, but we imply that maybe people in Smallville have put two and two together.

No s***t Sherlock! Maybe? How could they not know? Oh mein.

“I can neither confirm nor deny,” Goyer said when asked about Zod’s body. “But I will say that I did intentionally leave some loose ends, not as sequel bait, but just because I thought they were interesting.”

Really? Because you thought they were interesting? LOL

 

[roach]

I didn't realize this was the bash Goyer thread....thought this was about mind vs muscle

 

[Shikamaru]

I think there is one major obstacle that prevents Superman from being portrayed as smarter. There are essentially 2 things that evolve overtime - the protagonist and the mythos/world around the protagonist. In order for things to fit together well, both have to evolve consistently.

Let's take Batman for example. Batman evolved to be the world's greatest detective over the years. His mythos have also evolved but with that knowledge in mind. The world around Batman is specifically designed to have him solve cases and use his wits over and over again to get out of certain situations. His villains are also built around that idea and are meant to challenge him in that regard.

But with Superman, it's almost as if the Superman mythos evolved overtime without the idea of Superman being very intelligent being there. It's as if the world around Superman was built without taking into account his level of intelligence in the first place. The best example is the Superman/Lex Luthor dynamic and Superman/Batman dynamic. Essentially, one of the themes that has been present in those dynamics for years was the idea that the human mind is capable of keeping up with godlike power. That established theme didn't seem to take into account certain things such as, for example, Superman doing science just as advanced as Lex's (or more) in the Fortress of Solitude. Heck, a large part of the Batman/Superman dynamic is that Batman is the mind while Superman is the muscle. It's been that way since at least the 1980's. But when this dynamic was established, it wasn't with the intention of making Superman look inferior to Batman or to start a pissing war between the fans. The message was that these men were equal and completed each other. Whatever one could do, the other couldn't. And it just so happens that what Batman can do is seen as cooler than what Superman could do in today's age.

It really seems as if there isn't much room for Superman to show off his intelligence in Superman stories. It's not that writers don't know how. It's more that there aren't a lot of ways his intelligence can shine without breaking whatever fans consider to be the status quo of the Superman side of the DC universe. If you stay true to Superman's meant intelligence, people will complain that certain aspects of the Superman mythos have had major changes. If you keep the status quo intact, people will complain that Superman doesn't display his intelligence as often as he should.

That is essentially a problem even MOS had to juggle. It tried to modernize Superman and get rid of all the complaints people had over the years (he's too powerful, too nice, etc.) while still trying to keep as much of the things people identify as part of Superman there. And based on the polarizing reactions, it almost seems as if there is no way to do Superman without causing a major division in fans, both the casual and hardcore ones.

 

[roach]

That is essentially a problem even MOS had to juggle. It tried to modernize Superman and get rid of all the complaints people had over the years (he's too powerful, too nice, etc.) while still trying to keep as much of the things people identify as part of Superman there. And based on the polarizing reactions, it almost seems as if there is no way to do Superman without causing a major division in fans, both the casual and hardcore ones.

Here's a good read by various people who have written Superman and the issues they run into:
http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superman-exclusive-creative-challenges-of-the-man-of-steel/

"There hasn’t been a Superman story written or movie made where someone didn’t say, ‘Yeah, but he’s Superman, so he should have been able to blah, blah, blah.’ "

 

[DA_Champion]

I think in general Hollywood has a very hard time portraying intelligence. Iron Man 2 is the norm, The Social Network is the exception. It is one of my core pet peeves with Hollywood: they believe that being smart means having everything come easy.

I have no expectation that Goyer will be a trendsetter. I think he expects us to buy that CK will be a great reporter without any actual training. Things don't work that way.

 

[Krumm]

I think there is one major obstacle that prevents Superman from being portrayed as smarter. There are essentially 2 things that evolve overtime - the protagonist and the mythos/world around the protagonist. In order for things to fit together well, both have to evolve consistently.

Let's take Batman for example. Batman evolved to be the world's greatest detective over the years. His mythos have also evolved but with that knowledge in mind. The world around Batman is specifically designed to have him solve cases and use his wits over and over again to get out of certain situations. His villains are also built around that idea and are meant to challenge him in that regard.

But with Superman, it's almost as if the Superman mythos evolved overtime without the idea of Superman being very intelligent being there. It's as if the world around Superman was built without taking into account his level of intelligence in the first place. The best example is the Superman/Lex Luthor dynamic and Superman/Batman dynamic. Essentially, one of the themes that has been present in those dynamics for years was the idea that the human mind is capable of keeping up with godlike power. That established theme didn't seem to take into account certain things such as, for example, Superman doing science just as advanced as Lex's (or more) in the Fortress of Solitude. Heck, a large part of the Batman/Superman dynamic is that Batman is the mind while Superman is the muscle. It's been that way since at least the 1980's. But when this dynamic was established, it wasn't with the intention of making Superman look inferior to Batman or to start a pissing war between the fans. The message was that these men were equal and completed each other. Whatever one could do, the other couldn't. And it just so happens that what Batman can do is seen as cooler than what Superman could do in today's age.

It really seems as if there isn't much room for Superman to show off his intelligence in Superman stories. It's not that writers don't know how. It's more that there aren't a lot of ways his intelligence can shine without breaking whatever fans consider to be the status quo of the Superman side of the DC universe. If you stay true to Superman's meant intelligence, people will complain that certain aspects of the Superman mythos have had major changes. If you keep the status quo intact, people will complain that Superman doesn't display his intelligence as often as he should.

That is essentially a problem even MOS had to juggle. It tried to modernize Superman and get rid of all the complaints people had over the years (he's too powerful, too nice, etc.) while still trying to keep as much of the things people identify as part of Superman there. And based on the polarizing reactions, it almost seems as if there is no way to do Superman without causing a major division in fans, both the casual and hardcore ones.

Those are very good points. But I think there is a way to make Superman seem intelligent and have that intelligence be different from Batman's as some others have pointed out.

For instance, he can be clever in using his powers. Not sure how many of you are reading Superman Unchained but issue #2 opens with a great action sequence with a clever resolution.

 

[roach]

How do you know he has no training to be a journalist?
Clark is 33 in this movie and we see glimpses of his life. How do we know that he doesn't go to school to be a journalist in the times we don't see?

 

[Krumm]

I think in general Hollywood has a very hard time portraying intelligence. Iron Man 2 is the norm, The Social Network is the exception. It is one of my core pet peeves with Hollywood: they believe that being smart means having everything come easy.

I have no expectation that Goyer will be a trendsetter. I think he expects us to buy that CK will be a great reporter without any actual training. Things don't work that way.

Who said he doesn't have any actual training?

 

[DA_Champion]

Who said he doesn't have any actual training?

As of now he has no actual training -- it is not in the movie. If they state in the sequel that he majored in literature and worked for the ledger for a few years that will be something else. Of course I would rather see these things than be told about them.

 

[roach]

Who said he doesn't have any actual training?

exactly...we don't see every moment of his life

 

[Krumm]

As of now he has no actual training -- it is not in the movie. If they state in the sequel that he majored in literature and worked for the ledger for a few years that will be something else. Of course I would rather see these things than be told about them.

Sorry but you can't make conclusions from things that are inconclusive.

 

[DA_Champion]

Sorry but you can't make conclusions from things that are inconclusive.

Goyer had 143 minutes to show what he considered the most important events of Clark's life. Education and journalistic skills were not among them.