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[3dman27]

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[HoratioRome]

Every reader is guilty of doing the exact same thing. It's called an opinion.

true but that doesn't make it right does it? besides, writers have an obligation to get it right, they have a job, it is their responsibility to research the material they are writing about. Readers don't/

Yes, that's correct. The mask and his newfound powers gave him a sense of freedom that he sometimes lacked as "mild-mannered" Peter Parker. He felt free enough to let his natural humor out and could get the satisfaction of standing up to larger-than-life bullies like Electro, Venom, etc. Just cause a nerdy kid learns how to stand up for himself against insecure bullies like Flash Thompson, doesn't mean they know how to act against a "cool kid" (a very well respected, confident hero with a strong moral background, and leader of men) like Captain America.

yes my friend but you are forgetting the fact that they've met before. many, many times before. Yes SM respects Cap, but not in this hero worship, I'm not worthy way he's been portrayed. There can't be an argument here. I don't think, given the fact that they've met many times before, that there is an argument. Your opinion makes a lot of sense and is very logical for a new story an new character (iow if SM was meeting new people. say aliens or something). But when that story has already been established and someone comes along and tells a different story which contradicts the first, there can't be an argument as to the contradiction. there just can't.

I believe Spider-Man was at a ripe young, insecure 18 years of age when he was first approched by the Avengers about joining. He wanted to join because of the fame and respect (and salary) that he'd get for being part of the "Mightiest Heroes on Earth". It's like rushing at the big frat on campus.

Knowing the context, does telling the most respected super-team on his Earth, that he's unimpressed, followed by telling the team he's trying to join that he's not interested, followed by immediately fighting them sound like the actions of someone with a modicum of confidence? Not really.
That sounds like someone with something to prove. He wants to impress them by beating them. Just like in Amazing #1 when he gets in his first misunderstanding with the FF, he's acting out of insecurity and tries to beat them so that they'll be impressed and give him a job. Classic noob. Only later in continuity does he start to appreciate his individuality and solo freedom more and more.

just to make a correction, SM wasn't trying to join the Avengers. the Avengers were trying to recruit him so they tracked him down and invited him. At first he told Thor no, sorry, not interested, but later on, when he was by himself he changed his mind. He went to meet with them and they told him he needed to pass a test. To which SM replied, "test? I'm easily as good as any of you, why would I need a test." (I'm paraphrasing) he said something along the lines of who do you think you're talking to? I'm no amateur. This response prompted a smart response from hawkeye and SM's temper got the best of him. SM had a very quick temper back in the day.

anyway, now that you know a bit more, I hope it becomes a little clearer why the current treatment doesn't hold up. your analysis of the situation was logical and smart, and made sense, but it wasn't accurate to Spider-man.

Those first few issues served as the justification as to why Spidey never joined a team throughout the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

From my understanding, the Spidey we know and love was often very self-depreciating in his humor. Now Bendis doesn't take into account Parker's other qualities (because Bendis is too busy admiring Luke Cage and Spider-Woman) and lets him comfortably sink into the role of class clown, however, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Spider-Man is a "newb" among his fellow heroes. Cap and Tony clearly respect him. Wolverine even respects him (Hudlin, on the other hand, does not). He has a budding friendship of mutual respect with Luke Cage. And Jessica Drew is kind of a *****. Sentry doesn't really talk much either. So there.

all I can say here is that i HATE, HATE Hudlin.
The other stuff is a matter of opinion and you have your right to it. I just disagree but that's fine.

He was a reserve member which translates into:

reserve or otherwise he was an avenger. he was reserve by choice, because HE didn't want to be permanent. The point remains that he was in the group, worked with them, and fought with them, so this is nothing new to him. can you please acknowledge that little point. that being with the avengers is nothing new? that hanging with Cap is nothing new. not a big deal. respect or no respect.

Cap: Hmmm...Well it's looks like it's time for a cross-over.
Iron Man: Another one? Christ....Is it Kang again?
Cap: Yeah....
Iron Man: Looks like we're gonna need to fill up the cover to the next issue with as many heroes as possible huh?
Cap: Call the reserves.
Iron Man: Niiiice *high fives Cap*

It's like being an understudy. Just cause you know the lines doesn't mean anyone cares. And it seems like Disassembled was the first time any of the "cast members" ever got "sick". So I guess he was due.

oh but I disagree, it is not like being an understudy at all. it's not like when the "real heroes" are unavailable we call in the stand ins. The second rate guys. not at all. Keep in mind, Reed Richards who Cap looks up to, is a reserve avenger, so is Thing and many other "big Guns" like the HUlk. no my friend, I think it could easily be seen as when the $%% hits the fans we are gonna need some serious help so lets at least have these guys on board. (yeah I know they have some pretty lame heroes as reserves too).

Spider-Man is your mom?!?! Luuuuuuckky! t:

Besides, if your love of Spidey was that deep then wouldn't you love him unconditionally and stick with him through good times and bad?

aah but I do. my love for spider-man doesn't change. jUst my love for how the character is being treated. Let me ask you this, if you love a character, doesn't the treatment of that character automatically become important to you?. do you truly love something if it's perfectly ok with you that it gets mistreated?

I really don't wanna come to the defense of Quesadillydo but who was any better in the past? Tom DeFalco (Variant Holo Deluxe Covers)? Bob Harras? (Chapter One, The Crappiness that is the second half of the 90's)Jim Shooter? ("I Call it a CROSSOVER!", Half of the writers hated him) All these people were hated at some point or another. Should we bring back Stan Lee? He can barely remember his own name much less years of continuity that most fans ardently cling to. The EIC is all about money. The only difference now is that JQ likes to incite fan anger for fun and profit. That's a smart tactic if I say so myself.

the fact that the recent previous editors all sucked doesn't mean that JQ doesn't. as far as his tactic being smart, I beg to differ. The ultimate goal of an EIC is to sell as many comics as possible. Guess what, his tactic has turned me off from buying comics (which I'm so addicted to I have to buy essentials and masterworks just to get a fix). There is a whole market that he has turned off and continues to alienate for the sake of "new" readers, which are getting smaller and smaller in number. Everyone of my friends who read comics with me as a child, have "given up" on buying comics, even though their love for the character is a strong as ever. I wouldn't call that smart. bottom line, keeping continuity and respecting the characters wouldn't turn off new reader. but it may bring back the old ones. whereas NOT respecting continuity and character is turning off the old readers and stopping them from buying. you do the math.

I dropped Spider-Man (and all comics for that matter) at Chapter One. They essentially tried to "end" Spider-Man with the god-awful Gathering of Five and reboot everything. Now THAT'S a slap in the face. I didn't touch comics for years until halfway through JMS' run. I understand the anger that people can feel towards certain decisions (Ben's death...grrr...) but I don't think it should stop people from enjoying what they read. If they don't enjoy it, I am of the opinion that they shouldn't read it or laugh and criticize others who do.

just remember what we are complaining about. It's one thing to dislike a story, or dislike an event in a comic (like the death of -----). Its one thing if you feel the art or the writing is not up to par. BUT it's another thing altogether if they take the thing you love and change into something else. If I ask for apple pie at a restaurant I may not like the way it was baked. It may have too much sugar or not enough apples, or whatever. I may not eat it, but it's still apple pie, so I wouldn't call the waiter and return it. But if I ask for an apple pie and the waiter brings me a cheery pie, that is something else. The waiter/cook/restaurant made a mistake. In this case I would call the waiter and return it.
there are reasons why we fell in love with these specific characters. we are seeing those very reason go away and tremple upon. We are left with the opposite of what we fell in love with .
how can you not understand our displeasure, and our suprise that the other people who ordered apple pie, don't even seem to notice that they got cherry pie?

I don't like country music (at all) but you don't see me on the Tim McGraw message board telling them that the country they listen to isn't what country "should" be. Now...Hank Williams, that's a REAL country artist. This new stuff sucks.

Just kidding. All of it sucks.

terrible analogy. The right analogy would have been that you like, no LOVE country music, but they are turning the "country sound" into pop music. THEN you need to ask, wouldn't it make sense to be on a message board asking "where did my country music go?". or who the F#*$ is killing country music?

 

[Chris Wallace]

It's no worse than the "God must've written my buddy out of continuity" analogy.

 

[HoratioRome]

It's no worse than the "God must've written my buddy out of continuity" analogy.

t: t:

 

[Chris Wallace]

Now that Peter has come to his senses, I'd like to pick this thread up again. Now that it is CLEAR that Tony never had anyone's interests at heart except his own, which nullifies any defense of Peter's blind trust in him.

 

[shinlyle]

Now that Peter has come to his senses, I'd like to pick this thread up again. Now that it is CLEAR that Tony never had anyone's interests at heart except his own, which nullifies any defense of Peter's blind trust in him.

So...we were right, huh? t:

 

[Chris Wallace]

Evidently. My wife as bombarded me with "Tony does what's in his own best interests" for months now. I hate it when she's right about stuff like that, even if I did agree with her all along.

 

[shinlyle]

Evidently. My wife as bombarded me with "Tony does what's in his own best interests" for months now. I hate it when she's right about stuff like that, even if I did agree with her all along.

Don't feel bad....my wife tends to be right quite often as well.

 

[Chris Wallace]

They do that.

 

[3dman27]

so tony was screwing with everybody to keep his idea of turning the avengers into an international umbrella organization of superheroes?buisness conglomerate? and was he under his OWN infuence or the extremis?

 

[Chris Wallace]

All I know is that he helped to build a prison which holds long-established heroes w/no trial & no possibillity of parole, & is reaping huge profits from it. He's been manipulating & lying to Peter every step of the way, & now we find out he's been monitoring Peter's every move, most likely through the suit. How else could he be on Peter's @$$ 2 seconds after he makes his decision to switch sides?

 

[drewr15]

Glad they are showing both sides fairly.

 

[Flint Marko]

What saIy you?

I'm saying the organic web-shooters.
really ticks me off, more than the rest.
Just as much as the whole "gwen getting freaky with Norman thing"
makes me angry....and joey q won't like me when I'm angry..

 

[Chris Wallace]

Glad they are showing both sides fairly.

Well, I don't care if the pro-regs are portrayed as a bunch of tools. I'm against the SHRA & anyone who supports it. I don't want objectivity; I want it shown for the bad idea that it is.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I'm saying the organic web-shooters.
really ticks me off, more than the rest.
Just as much as the whole "gwen getting freaky with Norman thing"
makes me angry....and joey q won't like me when I'm angry..

In truth, there's 2 reasons why the webbing doesn't bother me.
1-as many have argued, he has all these natural abilities of a spider, why wouldn't he be able to make his own webbing?
2-he had an annoying habit of running out of web fluid at the worst possible time.

 

[drewr15]

Well, I don't care if the pro-regs are portrayed as a bunch of tools. I'm against the SHRA & anyone who supports it. I don't want objectivity; I want it shown for the bad idea that it is.

That's fine if its your opinion and I agree with you but your not the one who claimed to be writing a story that would fairly portray both sides of the issue. The whole story idea is bad but if your going to do it, do it right.

Oh and the thing i've disliked most in Spidey was the whole The Other story line. Yech!

 

[Flint Marko]

That's fine if its your opinion and I agree with you but your not the one who claimed to be writing a story that would fairly portray both sides of the issue. The whole story idea is bad but if your going to do it, do it right.

Oh and the thing i've disliked most in Spidey was the whole The Other story line. Yech!

more than the sins past?

 

[drewr15]

more than the sins past?

Believe it or not yes but probably because it was so over hyped...all I kept hearing was how I was going to love this story and all the variant covers and all that and it just stunk. The only redeeming part of sins past to me was MJ slapping Norman in the face. But as bad as it was, all sins past did was change our impression of Gwen, while the other just turned Spidey into a mutant basically.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Now that Peter has come to his senses, I'd like to pick this thread up again. Now that it is CLEAR that Tony never had anyone's interests at heart except his own, which nullifies any defense of Peter's blind trust in him.

how does what Tony's motives were... nullify what peter was thinking or believing.. when he didnt know what tony was thinking?

 

[The Sheriff]

Wow, I was completely unaware of the majority of this. I sort of drifted from the comics in the early stages of the clone saga back in the day, and never really got back into them (mostly due to lack of places to find the comics around here). I'd read up about the iron suit, didn't know about the rest of this though. Being a fan of the Spidey from the old days, all of this stuff seems foriegn to me, and most of it sounds like it's been done badly on top of that. I'd probably choose "All of the above" for this poll, as none of it strikes me as it being in his characteristics. What the hell were they thinking?

*Feels nostalgic for the old Spidey comics* Meeeeeeemoriiieeees!

 

[Arach Knight]

Glad they are showing both sides fairly.

Actually, if you read Civil War Frontline, that basically is from the perspective of the anti-registration people, inluding b-listers, speed ball and a reporter from a tabloid who got put in prison over her views and interaction with anti-registration superhumans. Many of the individual books (Iron Man, Spider-Man etc etc) deal with the heros perspective. Civil War is mostly the pro side, but it also deals with the bulk of the actions/consequences. Frontline deals with the social side and the anti-registration. Unlike most maxi series that do cross overs, Civil War really pushes you into having to buy the other books, to actualy get the story. With something like Infinite Crisis, you could read the seven core books to that story, and essentially get all of the information, and maybe lose out on 10% of the meaning. Reading just Civil War, and not Frontline, costs you about 35-40% of the story that is actually going on.

 

[drewr15]

Actually, if you read Civil War Frontline, that basically is from the perspective of the anti-registration people, inluding b-listers, speed ball and a reporter from a tabloid who got put in prison over her views and interaction with anti-registration superhumans. Many of the individual books (Iron Man, Spider-Man etc etc) deal with the heros perspective. Civil War is mostly the pro side, but it also deals with the bulk of the actions/consequences. Frontline deals with the social side and the anti-registration. Unlike most maxi series that do cross overs, Civil War really pushes you into having to buy the other books, to actualy get the story. With something like Infinite Crisis, you could read the seven core books to that story, and essentially get all of the information, and maybe lose out on 10% of the meaning. Reading just Civil War, and not Frontline, costs you about 35-40% of the story that is actually going on.

While I agree about Civil War doing that I completely disagree about Crisis not. Being really only a Wonder Woman DC reader, every next issue in Crisis there were clearly events that happened in other books that I had no idea about. Both stories give you major plot line overviews but if you want the details of battles or what made someone's decision they want you to buy the other books and I don't have the money or getting enough enjoyment out of either to do that so I miss parts of the story in both. And I really don't think the core Civil War book is from the pro-side perspective only at all.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You're not the one who claimed to be writing a story that would fairly portray both sides of the issue.

You didn't believe him, did you?

 

[Chris Wallace]

how does what Tony's motives were... nullify what peter was thinking or believing.. when he didnt know what tony was thinking?

Because he's never been the type to just swallow what was put in front of him. And I said it nullifes the defenses. If he's able to question & explore Tony's motives now he was able to do it then, & he should've.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Wow, I was completely unaware of the majority of this. I sort of drifted from the comics in the early stages of the clone saga back in the day, and never really got back into them (mostly due to lack of places to find the comics around here). I'd read up about the iron suit, didn't know about the rest of this though. Being a fan of the Spidey from the old days, all of this stuff seems foriegn to me, and most of it sounds like it's been done badly on top of that. I'd probably choose "All of the above" for this poll, as none of it strikes me as it being in his characteristics. What the hell were they thinking?

*Feels nostalgic for the old Spidey comics* Meeeeeeemoriiieeees!

As I've said, I didn't include an "All of the above" b/c I felt that no matter how badly they all bug you, one has to stand out among the rest as being the worst.