Mutant-phobia: a Savage Hypocrisy

[Herr Logan]

I'm having too much fun w/this thread to even be insulted by that.

And the progress just keeps on comin'.


Seriously, I'm sick of people telling others that a discussion isn't worth having just because they've run out of things to say (or had nothing to say to begin with, which isn't strictly the case in this particular instance). If someone else made a thread about this (which is very likely, but I haven't seen in on the "New Posts" page or in my Subscribed threads list, so I wouldn't know), then it's valid to civilly tell a thread starter that they should have their thread merged, but otherwise, why would someone take the time to tell others that they are wasting their time in a discussion that they and probably others are clearly interested in? There are definitely subjects that are pointless and a clear sign of dangerous levels of boredom (you know all about that, dontcha Chris...), but this topic is certainly not one of them. Maybe it's been discussed before, but the Hype is missing about a year's worth of search results for some ungodly reason, so it's not a crime to bring it up now.

People who tell others that they shouldn't explore and discuss complex topics are just as flat-out wrong as those who tell dissenting, dissatisfied, knowledgable fans that certain movies or comics haven't lived up to high, but reasonable expectations that they shouldn't be on these boards if they don't have more positive input than negative input that they shouldn't post. The reason that kind of behavior is wrong and inexcusable (not necessarily unforgivable, though) is that anybody who is on a computer, posting about superheroes, clearly isn't all that interested in doing anything more constructive than make "pointless" conversation or observe other people doing the same.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I may have to rethink my whole position on you. I was a hair's breadth from putting you on my ignore list; you don't insult for the sake of insulting. You're trying to shake people out of complacency.

 

[Tropico]

3-You're absolutely right about this one. While Spider-Man's word may not count for much, having worked alongside several mutants, you'd think Cap & Iron Man would want to do more to help them. But they don't. It could also be argued that Black Panther, a respected world leader & longtime Avenger who's about to MARRY a mutant, would want to do more for them. But he may confine the fight to Wakanda.
Aned it's also true that for the most part, they act like it doesn't exist in the other titles. But here's a great example of how it's mishandled; When Reed Richards first peeled the alien symbiote off of Spider-Man, leaving him running around in an old FF uniform & a paper bag, he stopped a robbery & was instantly mobbed by reporters. They had no idea what power he had-if any, much less how he'd gotten them, but they were ready to make him an instant celebrity. This is a fear & a hatred that is chosen.

Like any prejudice, it IS something people choose. More than likely if he then went on to tell them that he was a mutant the scene would have taken a 180 degree turn. The way mutants are trated reminded me of this funny anecdote: My mom is Cuban and recently she was talking with anotehr latino woman who wasn't Cuban. Everything was going fine, they were having a pleasant conversation and then the lady made a comment about Cubans. My mom immediately told her that she was Cuban even though, apparently, the lady wasn't finished with her rant. The lady gave one of those snotty, frosty "Oh!"'s people tend to give in those kinds of situation. Suffice it to say, the lady's attitude changed completely and got all high and mighty with my mom. You can be the best kind of person and even get along with someone, but prejudice usally overrides this. It's sad, but true.

In regards as if the mutant issue is hypocritcal or not, I would have to agree that it is. I can understand why mutants get a bad rap instead of the other superpowered beings since it's something genetic. Hell, mutacy has often been seen like a disease, probably going back to the whole "warped genes" thing again. On a totally different subject (and thread) I brought up the point of Spidey never speaking up for mutants, it makes sense that he would because of the experiences he's had. BUT, I can also see why he wouldn't precisely because of all the bad things that happen to him, it would probably bite him in the ass and he would then go on to be considered a "mutie lover" on top of all the other stuff. That's the funny thing about prejudice, just because someone respectable or cool talks in favor of it doesn't "elevate" whatever that person is defending but often times "lowers" people's perceptions of the speaker.

 

[Herr Logan]

I may have to rethink my whole position on you. I was a hair's breadth from putting you on my ignore list; you don't insult for the sake of insulting. You're trying to shake people out of complacency.

Don't tease me now... do you mean it??

Have I truly made one more person understand my mission in this world? I'm not being at all sarcastic when I say I'm truly happy to hear that.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Don't tease me now... do you mean it??

Have I truly made one more person understand my mission in this world? I'm not being at all sarcastic when I say I'm truly happy to hear that.

Great. Now whenever I defend or trash something I have to make a valid point & back it up.

 

[Chris Wallace]

so we're decided? irrational? so pointless discussion?

Pointless discussions don't have 4 pages of well thought-out posts.

 

[thor87]

Anti-mutant mentality is like any other prejudice in the Marvel or any other Universe.....indefensible.....

I've yet to hear a compelling argument as to why some self-proclaimed "Christians" can hate Jews when their beloved Jesus was king of the Jews??....and I never will.....prejudice = ignorance and to look for rationale within the confines of said prejudice...of any prejudice... is about as productive as looking for the Bread aisle at the local Home Depot!

the Jews killed thier king, and set free a murder. You want to know why anti-semitism exists read the new testament. some people are over the fact that the jews ordered the execution of our savior some are not. not all christians hate jews, but there is the reason why some do.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Like any prejudice, it IS something people choose. More than likely if he then went on to tell them that he was a mutant the scene would have taken a 180 degree turn. The way mutants are trated reminded me of this funny anecdote: My mom is Cuban and recently she was talking with anotehr latino woman who wasn't Cuban. Everything was going fine, they were having a pleasant conversation and then the lady made a comment about Cubans. My mom immediately told her that she was Cuban even though, apparently, the lady wasn't finished with her rant. The lady gave one of those snotty, frosty "Oh!"'s people tend to give in those kinds of situation. Suffice it to say, the lady's attitude changed completely and got all high and mighty with my mom. You can be the best kind of person and even get along with someone, but prejudice usally overrides this. It's sad, but true.

In regards as if the mutant issue is hypocritcal or not, I would have to agree that it is. I can understand why mutants get a bad rap instead of the other superpowered beings since it's something genetic. Hell, mutacy has often been seen like a disease, probably going back to the whole "warped genes" thing again. On a totally different subject (and thread) I brought up the point of Spidey never speaking up for mutants, it makes sense that he would because of the experiences he's had. BUT, I can also see why he wouldn't precisely because of all the bad things that happen to him, it would probably bite him in the ass and he would then go on to be considered a "mutie lover" on top of all the other stuff. That's the funny thing about prejudice, just because someone respectable or cool talks in favor of it doesn't "elevate" whatever that person is defending but often times "lowers" people's perceptions of the speaker.

1-on the Spidey situation, you're probably right. in all likelihood that's what would've happened. Although one reporter asked how "this" (not sure if he meant "your existence" or "your actions") would affect anti-mutant hysteria.
2-interesting point. The "respected" superheroes don't speak up for mutants but doing so could prove to be a double-edged sword; you're right about that.

 

[Chris Wallace]

the Jews killed thier king, and set free a murder. You want to know why anti-semitism exists read the new testament. some people are over the fact that the jews ordered the execution of our savior some are not. not all christians hate jews, but there is the reason why some do.

What's funny about that is, if you believe in the Bible & in Christ, he was supposed to die. How can you believe he was our saviour & then bash the people who did nothing but help him carry out his mission? That makes even less sense than mutant hating.

 

[thor87]

ok for example the democrats killed bill clinton dont ask why, just bear with me, the far left would split the party into two groups, the would make clinton into a martyr then proclaim clintonism the new religeon based on the teachings of their fearless leader, Bill clinton. thats kind of what happened. the jews turned on jesus, even though he was one, then Jesus's most loyal supporters started their new religeon based on Jesus's teachings. The new Catholics then brought their anti jewish sentiment across the world wherever the went. That is why throughout history you have Jewish people constantly being opressed. Now we must tackle the issue of why do people dislike Africans, whites enslaved them, now they are being ethnically cleansed by the Arabs in sudan.

 

[thor87]

What's funny about that is, if you believe in the Bible & in Christ, he was supposed to die. How can you believe he was our saviour & then bash the people who did nothing but help him carry out his mission?

he was supposed to die, but at the time they really didnt know that, sure Jesus was saying he was going to sacrifice himself, but it still was a shock, and when he appeared to the diciples 3 days later then they realized that the son of God had been killed. Logic dictates not to hate those who kill the one who was supposed to die, but emotion calls for vengance.

 

[roach]

ok for example the democrats killed bill clinton dont ask why, just bear with me, the far left would split the party into two groups, the would make clinton into a martyr then proclaim clintonism the new religeon based on the teachings of their fearless leader, Bill clinton. thats kind of what happened. the jews turned on jesus, even though he was one, then Jesus's most loyal supporters started their new religeon based on Jesus's teachings. The new Catholics then brought their anti jewish sentiment across the world wherever the went. That is why throughout history you have Jewish people constantly being opressed. Now we must tackle the issue of why do people dislike Africans, whites enslaved them, now they are being ethnically cleansed by the Arabs in sudan.

you have just won the prize for most ignorant post

 

[thor87]

why do you say that, im just giving you an example as to why, most people are not familiar with the bible so i try to put it in laymens terms, because it is really hard to explain fanatacism

 

[roach]

That you think that people are mad at the jews because a couple hundred years ago the voted to kill Jesus...who was here to die for mankind's sins....that is like getting mad at the scientist who threw the switch that caused the spider to become radioactive and bite Peter.

 

[Norman Osborn]

the Jews killed thier king, and set free a murder. You want to know why anti-semitism exists read the new testament. some people are over the fact that the jews ordered the execution of our savior some are not. not all christians hate jews, but there is the reason why some do.

I'm not sure I understand you? ....you think "Cause they killed my Lord Jesus Christ" 2,000 years ago" is a compelling argument as to the hatred of Jews we see today?.....I thought my point was clear....I never said there was "NO" reason.....I said there wasn't a good one!.....and hating Jews for the actions of other Jews 1000's of years ago is neither compelling nor does it equate to anything more than ignorance!

 

[thor87]

man, i guess you dont float around in many christian circles, as crazy as it sounds that is the main reason why, Christianity, Judism, and Islam are 3 branches of the same tree, the reasons why christians fought the muslims was over the holy land, aka where Jesus died, the reasons why chrsitans attacked the Jews is because there denial and murder of Jesus. It doesnt have to make sense, it doesnt, Jesus came here to die, we know that now, but again this kind of hate is hard to explain. Now i dont share this view, im just explaining what 12 years of Catholic school, and sunday school, plus chuch every sunday for 20 years has led me to believe.

 

[Herr Logan]

Great. Now whenever I defend or trash something I have to make a valid point & back it up.

The world is a better place than it was an hour ago.

Pointless discussions don't have 4 pages of well thought-out posts.

Exactly. This isn't a spam thread.

I personally think it's very important to explore the truths and misconceptions regarding bigotry, even if the starting example is fictional, because those principles apply to many important issues in the world.

Considering the kind of scientific resources the human race has at this point and the possibilities being debated (cloning; enhancing humans to heal faster, be stronger and live longer, etc.), people should understand the difference between valid fears about potential enemies/predators and the usual, petty, tribalistic rivalries that occur between groups of people on every conceivable level (light skinned people vs. dark skinned people; natives vs. immigrants; sports team A vs. sports team B; Superman fans vs. Spider-Man fans; etc.).

In the episode of the X-Men animated series entitled 'One Man's Worth,' where in an alternate reality where mutant peace advocate Charles Xavier was killed off in the 50's or 60's and Storm and Wolverine were married and embroiled in a horrible race war, Storm said something that summed up the difference between regular tribalistic hatred and a fear of a more powerful race. Storm and Wolverine were brought back in time to the 50's or 60's by Bishop and Shard to stop Xavier's assassination, and while they were discussing their plan in a diner, the manager made a hateful remark about Bishop and Storm, who are both dark skinned. Storm said, "Skin-color prejudice? That's so pathetic, it's almost quaint." That's exactly how I feel about it.

Unfortunately, because exploitation and persecution of certain groups of people throughout history went uncheck for so long, actual cultural and socio-economic differences do exist between groups of people who were distinguished by irrelevant categorizations ("white" vs. "black", American vs. immigrant, etc.). I don't actually know what is or isn't true about which "races" (the concepts for which this term is used are completely imaginary) or "ethnicities" commit whatever rates of various crimes, or treat various groups ("races," genders, etc.) certain ways at whatever rates, regardless of what I've learned in criminology classes. One of the first things I've learned in my major is that those kinds of statistics are practically meaningless, overall. I have come to the conclusion that it is not, strictly speaking, evil or necessarily stupid to instinctively fear a person who looks/dresses/acts like a stereotype that is related to a "race," ethnicity, nationality, etc., if you grew up in a place where such stereotypes are discussed often and records of events are distorted in various ways. What is stupid is to take one basically irrelevant trait, such as skin color, and make an actual judgement based on that alone. What is evil is to treat someone in a hostile, hateful or otherwise harmful manner based on anything other than their known behavior. Fear and hatred aren't the same thing, just like fearlessness and courage aren't the same thing. Fear and hatred fear each other, but merely thinking about stereotypes and behaving purely defensively is not wrong per se, as much of this is fed into many people's minds in one way or another and people are hardwired to follow heuristic thought processes (mental shortcuts that allow you to multitask rather than spend a lot of time considering every stilumus that you perceive).

This isn't me defending racism, because I believe actual racism in practice is dispicable; this is me saying that people should think carefully after receiving real facts before using that word, along with sexism and every other "ism" that means bigotry or other tribalistic/supremecist behavior.
Also, bigotry is not the same as ignorance, as ignorance is merely the lack of knowledge or awareness, which is a negative value, and to argue with validity that someone is bigoted, the person being judged as such would have to take a positive action of some kind, whether proactive or reactive. Ignorance is the breeding ground upon which tribalistic prejudice and hatred thrives, but it is not the prejudice or hatred itself.

 

[roach]

The world is a better place than it was an hour ago.



Exactly. This isn't a spam thread.

I personally think it's very important to explore the truths and misconceptions regarding bigotry, even if the starting example is fictional, because those principles apply to many important issues in the world.

Considering the kind of scientific resources the human race has at this point and the possibilities being debated (cloning; enhancing humans to heal faster, be stronger and live longer, etc.), people should understand the difference between valid fears about potential enemies/predators and the usual, petty, tribalistic rivalries that occur between groups of people on every conceivable level (light skinned people vs. dark skinned people; natives vs. immigrants; sports team A vs. sports team B; Superman fans vs. Spider-Man fans; etc.).

In the episode of the X-Men animated series entitled 'One Man's Worth,' where in an alternate reality where mutant peace advocate Charles Xavier was killed off in the 50's or 60's and Storm and Wolverine were married and embroiled in a horrible race war, Storm said something that summed up the difference between regular tribalistic hatred and a fear of a more powerful race. Storm and Wolverine were brought back in time to the 50's or 60's by Bishop and Shard to stop Xavier's assassination, and while they were discussing their plan in a diner, the manager made a hateful remark about Bishop and Storm, who are both dark skinned. Storm said, "Skin-color prejudice? That's so pathetic, it's almost quaint." That's exactly how I feel about it.

Unfortunately, because exploitation and persecution of certain groups of people throughout history went uncheck for so long, actual cultural and socio-economic differences do exist between groups of people who were distinguished by irrelevant categorizations ("white" vs. "black", American vs. immigrant, etc.). I don't actually know what is or isn't true about which "races" (the concepts for which this term is used are completely imaginary) or "ethnicities" commit whatever rates of various crimes, or treat various groups ("races," genders, etc.) certain ways at whatever rates, regardless of what I've learned in criminology classes. One of the first things I've learned in my major is that those kinds of statistics are practically meaningless, overall. I have come to the conclusion that it is not, strictly speaking, evil or necessarily stupid to instinctively fear a person who looks/dresses/acts like a stereotype that is related to a "race," ethnicity, nationality, etc., if you grew up in a place where such stereotypes are discussed often and records of events are distorted in various ways. What is stupid is to take one basically irrelevant trait, such as skin color, and make an actual judgement based on that alone. What is evil is to treat someone in a hostile, hateful or otherwise harmful manner based on anything other than their known behavior. Fear and hatred aren't the same thing, just like fearlessness and courage aren't the same thing. Fear and hatred fear each other, but merely thinking about stereotypes and behaving purely defensively is not wrong per se, as much of this is fed into many people's minds in one way or another and people are hardwired to follow heuristic thought processes (mental shortcuts that allow you to multitask rather than spend a lot of time considering every stilumus that you perceive).

This isn't me defending racism, because I believe actual racism in practice is dispicable; this is me saying that people should think carefully after receiving real facts before using that word, along with sexism and every other "ism" that means bigotry or other tribalistic/supremecist behavior.
Also, bigotry is not the same as ignorance, as ignorance is merely the lack of knowledge or awareness, which is a negative value, and to argue with validity that someone is bigoted, the person being judged as such would have to take a positive action of some kind, whether proactive or reactive. Ignorance is the breeding ground upon which tribalistic prejudice and hatred thrives, but it is not the prejudice or hatred itself.

stop trolling

 

[Norman Osborn]

man, i guess you dont float around in many christian circles, as crazy as it sounds that is the main reason why, Christianity, Judism, and Islam are 3 branches of the same tree, the reasons why christians fought the muslims was over the holy land, aka where Jesus died, the reasons why chrsitans attacked the Jews is because there denial and murder of Jesus. It doesnt have to make sense, it doesnt, Jesus came here to die, we know that now, but again this kind of hate is hard to explain. Now i dont share this view, im just explaining what 12 years of Catholic school, and sunday school, plus chuch every sunday for 20 years has led me to believe.

Dude...lol...I can't seem to get this across to you.......I know "WHY" they hate Jews.....I asked for a "compelling" reason...one that isn't rooted in "ignorance" and "racism"......It doesn't have to make sense?....if it doesn't make sense...doesn't that go back to my initial claim of there not being a "compelling", "relevant", "non ignorant" reason?

...I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me??

 

[Herr Logan]

the Jews killed thier king, and set free a murder. You want to know why anti-semitism exists read the new testament. some people are over the fact that the jews ordered the execution of our savior some are not. not all christians hate jews, but there is the reason why some do.

Are you fecking kidding me?

How could the circumstances of Jesus Christ's death (whatever they actually are) possibly be considered a valid reason for any contemporary Christian to hate contemporary Jews? Nobody involved in that execution is alive today, which means nobody today holds any responsibility for that whatsoever. Anyone who thinks otherwise is flat-out stupid.

 

[roach]

I have heard many reasons why people dislike other people of Jewish faith......the only time I heard because the kille Jesus as a reason was South Park.

 

[Herr Logan]

stop trolling

I'm going to slaughter you and eat your children.

 

[roach]

I'm going to slaughter you and eat your children.

I dont have any kids...does that mean you are gonna eat them out of the "Incubator"

 

[Herr Logan]

Are you fecking kidding me?

How could the circumstances of Jesus Christ's death (whatever they actually are) possibly be considered a valid reason for any contemporary Christian to hate contemporary Jews? Nobody involved in that execution is alive today, which means nobody today holds any responsibility for that whatsoever. Anyone who thinks otherwise is flat-out stupid.

Wait... If you meant that it was their excuse and not a real reason, then don't take any offense at this, as it's not meant for you.

 

[Herr Logan]

I have heard many reasons why people dislike other people of Jewish faith......the only time I heard because the kille Jesus as a reason was South Park.

I've heard it in countless shows and movies, mostly as a parody or a depiction of a psychotic Christian who actually believes that's a valid reason.

dont have any kids...

...and you never will....

...does that mean you are gonna eat them out of the "Incubator"

In your sad, pathetic dreams!


God dammit, you're trying to turn this into a spam thread just to prove me wrong, aren't you??