Negativity towards the DC films? - Part 1

[Superchan]

I will throw 872 millions around all I like. It didn't reach expectations, every knows that, but it is still a good figure no matter how hard you try to convince otherwise. Did the movie flop? Probably in some people's dreams.

Please read my post carefully before you respond, I never said BvS was a flop but it was certainly a disappointment and 870 is a good figure for most movies (including most superhero movies) but it is not a good figure for a movie that combined 2 of the most famous and popular fictional characters of all time.

Oh and Pirates and Transformers gave audience what they want, they had fun. That's all that matters.

That's not what we were talking about, you said that you couldn't understand how a movie deemed to be bad by the general public can make 870 million and provided you with multiple examples of movies that were deemed terrible by critics and fans alike yet they made alot more than BvS and broke the billion dollar mark. The fact that BvS failed to even make 900 million (let alone the expected billion) after such massive amount of hype and opening weekend figures indicates that the audience saw the film on it's opening weekend but had no interest in coming back because they quickly realized that it sucked.

 

[Yowza]

I think the inverse of what happened with Marvel Studios could happen to WB. WB reticent to make solo adventures of various properties for years until essentially warped a Man of Steel sequel into something else trying to universe build like Marvel but too much script (too many directions as well as content trying cover all at once) made the movie way too hard to edit and feeling draining to watch as audience disconnected is my impression moreso than the darker tonality... This caused the studio to interfere with Suicide Squad (regardless of reshoots perhaps also cramped unsleek feel with production experiencing similar issues to BvS) trying make it more fun making movie get lost in process.

With Wonder Woman getting good reviews it seems perhaps success will come with the individual adaptations. Aquaman seems like it's looking promising and I think Justice League may get a pass with most people but oddly enough it seems dispersion of properties perhaps get most impactful movies through WB vs. bringing everything together at various points.

Edit: I think a big issue can arise if things get too dispersed too (studio seems be going all over the place). Films like the batman (post-Justice League no less as a verge of retirement batman yet bunch of movies spinning off of odd), Batgirl, Nightwing, Gotham city sirens, birds of prey, and suicide squad 2 would've been great for Gotham expanded universe but decenters from DCU universe. Also Dark Universe is interesting but again is 1 more movie have to commit to offcentered from core movies surrounding characters of the Justice League. I think things got tied together too quickly with DCU and they're seeing a free-reign dispersion of exploring different properties (with no limits) is going to work best but just simply can't tie together as well (if do probably suffer mixed results like films that have already gotten mixed results)... Sort of a quandary.

 

[Sleiek]

Please read my post carefully before you respond, I never said BvS was a flop but it was certainly a disappointment and 870 is a good figure for most movies (including most superhero movies) but it is not a good figure for a movie that combined 2 of the most famous and popular fictional characters of all time.

I would love to find out who determines how much a movie should make based on the leading superhero.

The Dark Knight maketh 1 billion. Every single Batman film henceforth shall maketh 1 billion dollars, otherwise it failed in some way.

And highest grossing non DCEU Superman movie made less than 400 million dollars. Of course it's DC, it should make 1 billion dollars.

 

[Flint Marko]

Common sense tells us that they weren't pleased with the film's disastrous legs and we know as much because of how they acted afterwards.

 

[Rorschach2012]

It's debatable whether BvS is a good movie or not, but it's clear that BvS was intended to make a billion. It would have if the reviews had been better.

 

[The Endless]

Let's forget if it's a good or bad movie. We know bad movies can make mega bucks at the box office just as much, if not more so, than good movies (just look at how much money garbage like Jurassic World or Transformers made compared to other films).

There is clearly some about BvS that makes it unsavoury to the general audiences.

My theory is the "up it's own ass" thing. It's simply pretentious as ****. People don't like being condescended to or patronized. They don't like something or someone that lacks self awareness, that thinks it's better than it is.

And that's the problem with Snyder. He has these great ambitions and ideas. His films have thematics and symbolism. He really tries. And I do give him credit. But his reach consistently falls short of his grasp. He has consistently shown his inability to cohesively communicate his thematics. But his staunch defenders will jump through hoops and connect the dots FOR HIM... then claim everyone else is as thick as pig ****.

This is the ultimate difference between Snyder and someone like Bay. And it reflects in their films popularity.

Now is that fair on Snyder? That he seems to be punished for having greater ambition? Perhaps not. I mean yes he has interesting ideas. The themes are there! But if they are not communicated through the narrative then it is quite a big problem. Because that is the essence of being a film maker when you boil it down.

 

[MadVillainy]

Let's forget if it's a good or bad movie. We know bad movies can make mega bucks at the box office just as much, if not more so, than good movies (just look at how much money garbage like Jurassic World or Transformers made compared to other films).

There is clearly some about BvS that makes it unsavoury to the general audiences.

My theory is the "up it's own ass" thing. It's simply pretentious as ****. People don't like being condescended to or patronized. They don't like something or someone that lacks self awareness, that thinks it's better than it is.

And that's the problem with Snyder. He has these great ambitions and ideas. His films have thematics and symbolism. He really tries. And I do give him credit. But his reach consistently falls short of his grasp. He has consistently shown his inability to cohesively communicate his thematics. But his staunch defenders will jump through hoops and connect the dots FOR HIM... then claim everyone else is as thick as pig ****.

This is the ultimate difference between Snyder and someone like Bay. And it reflects in their films popularity.

Now is that fair on Snyder? That he seems to be punished for having greater ambition? Perhaps not. I mean yes he has interesting ideas. The themes are there! But if they are not communicated through the narrative then it is quite a big problem. Because that is the essence of being a film maker when you boil it down.

Very good post

 

[The Endless]

Thanks lol. My thumb hurts now haha.

 

[The Endless]

I think it all stems from WB/DC wanting to be different from Marvel initially. Nothing wrong with that.

But It came from a bad place. They're sitting there on their high horses saying "oh Marvels films are just children's cartoons in live action! We're gonna make a universe like Nolan's! For adult, mature audiences!"

Well yea ok... But then they haven't got anyone as talented as Nolan making these films. They've got this dumb idea that serious and cynical = adult and mature. Which is dumb as hell.

There is a line in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 that is played for laughs, but is actually really poignant and relatable, especially to step parent's and step children.

"He might be yo father... But he ain't yo daddy!"

I mean that just says it all. That is why Marvel will continue to generate more love and goodwill than DC. It's anti-pretentious... But it still means a lot to people beyond just visceral entertainment.

 

[Grommers]

I think it all stems from WB/DC wanting to be different from Marvel initially. Nothing wrong with that.

But It came from a bad place. They're sitting there on their high horses saying "oh Marvels films are just children's cartoons in live action! We're gonna make a universe like Nolan's! For adult, mature audiences!"

Well yea ok... But then they haven't got anyone as talented as Nolan making these films. They've got this dumb idea that serious and cynical = adult and mature. Which is dumb as hell.

There is a line in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 that is played for laughs, but is actually really poignant and relatable, especially to step parent's and step children.

"He might be yo father... But he ain't yo daddy!"

I mean that just says it all. That is why Marvel will continue to generate more love and goodwill than DC. It's anti-pretentious... But it still means a lot to people beyond just visceral entertainment.

You mean that GotG movie that is a follow up guardians of the galaxy 1 that was also incredibly well received, that was certified fresh, stars chris pratt one of hollywoods hottest commodities, and still not hitting B vs S numbers?

I think thats what people are forgetting, almost all DCEU films will be gearing up to make 700 million plus, where as most Marvel movies hitting 500 million is considered a success, aquaman, flash, etc, all will be expected to bring in closer to the 700 million+ mark.

 

[Erzengel]

and still not hitting B vs S numbers?

GOTG2 surpassed BvS domestically.

I'm sure you mean ww though.

I think thats what people are forgetting, almost all DCEU films will be gearing up to make 700 million plus, where as most Marvel movies hitting 500 million is considered a success, aquaman, flash, etc, all will be expected to bring in closer to the 700 million+ mark.

There's a difference between Avengers, Iron Man, Batman, BvS/JL type movies and Aquaman, (Not even putting Flash because as of right now it doesn't appear to be progressing), Doctor Strange, Ant-Man type movies.

Expecting JL to make $750M and be excited if it makes only that? Those should be different level movies.

 

[InCali]

You mean that GotG movie that is a follow up guardians of the galaxy 1 that was also incredibly well received, that was certified fresh, stars chris pratt one of hollywoods hottest commodities, and still not hitting B vs S numbers?

I think thats what people are forgetting, almost all DCEU films will be gearing up to make 700 million plus, where as most Marvel movies hitting 500 million is considered a success, aquaman, flash, etc, all will be expected to bring in closer to the 700 million+ mark.

In NO world, galaxy, or universe should GotG be within spitting distance of Batman v Superman.....and it wouldn't be "IF" BvS had made even a moderately favorable impression on those of us who ran out to see it. I personally thought it "ok", but didn't see it again. Others, obviously, disagreed with me (on both sides of the coin). I liked SS quite a bit, hope WW is at least as good as I think it will be, and that JL is also good (but I have concerns about that one).

Maybe all DCEU films will make 700M, but that's not a given. Marvel's more recent efforts have all been in the 700M ballpark. Thor TDW (widely perceived to be one of Marvel's weaker efforts brought in about 650M). Doctor Strange did a little more than that, and The Winter Soldier and little more also. Ant Man was released 2 years ago, was a virtual unknown and had great legs or it wouldn't even have hit 500M. I think Marvel knew coming in that this would be one of their lower grossing movies, but an important one for setting the stage for the future of MCU (Quantum realm and new Avenger team). So, what did they do? They made the budget fit their projection, made money on the movie, and have their table set. That, IMO, is big picture thinking.

I think it's fair to say that most Marvel movies will probably be in the 700M range unless they put out a real stinker. That's a very respectable ballpark for DC or Marvel to be in. If the next AM movie comes in at 500M, I think it will be fair to say it underperformed at the BO. Marvel is at a disadvantage when it comes to the name recognition of their superheroes. Where they have developed an advantage is in the Marvel brand and the trust they've built with the general public.

EDIT: It's not a given that GotG2 will end up its BO run behind BvS. It probably will, but that's not a given. The point is that if you had said 3 years ago that the followup to GotG would be in the same neighborhood as a BvS movie, you probably would have, rightfully, been locked up in Arkham.

 

[The Endless]

You mean that GotG movie that is a follow up guardians of the galaxy 1 that was also incredibly well received, that was certified fresh, stars chris pratt one of hollywoods hottest commodities, and still not hitting B vs S numbers?

I think thats what people are forgetting, almost all DCEU films will be gearing up to make 700 million plus, where as most Marvel movies hitting 500 million is considered a success, aquaman, flash, etc, all will be expected to bring in closer to the 700 million+ mark.

GotG 2 has already beaten BvS in the US.

And I brought that up because that line shows that Marvels unpretentious and more comedic films can still have more meaning and emotional impact that the po-faced seriousness of the DCEU.

I mean ffs the death at the end of GotG2 was more gut wrenching and powerful than Supermans! How is this possible?!

And I don't think k anyone is expecting Aquaman or Flash to make 700-800 million to be successful... as long as WB don't spend 250 million to make them.

 

[Marvin]

I mean ffs the death at the end of GotG2 was more gut wrenching and powerful than Supermans! How is this possible?!

Who knows maybe people relate to a blue collar'd loser more than a historically unrelatable faultless god man. But beyond the how, my point is,
who said it was more gut wrenching and powerful? You're making a statement I would hope speaking for yourself but but given how this place works, most likely speaking for me and everyone and I'm left wondering when did he ask me? Or the billions of people that will see both movies? It's possible because it's subjective. If you somehow measured this achievement objectively ok, but you didn't.

You feel it was more powerful(fair enough), how is that possible, maybe it comes down to the person, ie you in this case. Like asking someone why an apple could possible taste better than ice cream than asking the chef what happened, and it's like, maybe ask the person.

I recall a certain detractor running around claiming kids were crying in the BvS cinema lobbys. I assume the death affected some people. What I found ironic is how that was somehow a bad thing at the time lol. Crazy days those were.

 

[Skrilla31]

Who knows maybe people relate to a blue collar'd loser more than a historically unrelatable faultless god man.

Superman is the original blue collar superhero.

 

[Marvin]

Superman is the original blue collar superhero.

Back when he was spinning planets on his finger in the pre crisis days?
I always felt that kid from queens that actually needed to eat food a tad more. But that's me.

 

[Skrilla31]

Back when he was spinning planets on his finger in the pre crisis days?
I always felt that kid from queens that actually needed to eat food a tad more. But that's me.

Superman was juggling two jobs long before Spiderman did.

 

[Marvin]

sure

 

[roynrosy]

The only way to combat negativity is with positive results which looks like is happening with WW. That's Step 1. Step 2 is JL. Let's just hope it's not 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

I totally agree with that.
I hope WW will bring the positive result.

 

[The Endless]

Well WW seems to be hitting the sweet spot. I've read some reviews and the main thing I've gathered is the hero is hopeful and string willed. No cynicism or doom and gloom, despite its setting.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

96% 7.8/10 RT score for Wonder Woman. So much for the idiocy that critics are biased against DC movies. Obviously the critics are just biased against bad movies.
Hope the box office numbers are good too.

 

[Mani-Man]

Well WW seems to be hitting the sweet spot. I've read some reviews and the main thing I've gathered is the hero is hopeful and string willed. No cynicism or doom and gloom, despite its setting.

Isnt that what we want in a comic book movie?
Personally i do want that, its a comic book movie afterall.

I might dislike the look and feel of Nolans Batman, but i still can enjoy them because they do have the essence of a super hero movie in there.

MOS and BvS just feel so "depressing" most of the time, the muddy, pale visuals dont help either and take the life out of the movies to me.

So i think WW could really hit the sweet spot and walk between two lines in a good way.
We will see.

 

[Sleiek]

I mean ffs the death at the end of GotG2 was more gut wrenching and powerful than Supermans! How is this possible?!

Because it's not. There's no way I could shed more tears for Yondu over Superman. It's unthinkable.

I mean, Yondu is a pirate who massacred his massive crew in like 1 minute.

And Superman is an alien who genuinely tried to help people whenever he can, even during his journey to find his purpose.

96% 7.8/10 RT score for Wonder Woman. So much for the idiocy that critics are biased against DC movies. Obviously the critics are just biased against bad movies.
Hope the box office numbers are good too.

Or they are biased against certain directors or certain styles. It could be that.

 

[Flint Marko]

Or Snyder is just a bad director.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Or they are biased against certain directors or certain styles. It could be that.

Except Suicide Squad and BvS had different directors and different styles.
Not to mention the David Ayer movies Fury was certified fresh at 77% and End of Watch was certified fresh at 85%. True he also had some other stinkers besides Suicide Squad,
like Sabotage at 20% and Street Kings at 36%. But all that shows is they are judging his films on their merits, not on who directed it.