Negativity towards the DC films? - Part 1

[Marvin]

Suicide Squad was colorful and fun (or at least it tried to be... in some version of the movie) but it got the worst reviews of any of these movies.

Who said anything about a films inherent quality not factoring. All I've ever pointed out are the large factors at work. You don't see talk of too dark need to change in the alien reviews..but I digress.
SS had color correct(so do most dc films imo). I mostly blocked the film out but I remember a very dark film in that one. From one 'hero' burning his wife and kids, to bombs in heads and joker torture and various other things. I don't remember 'inspiring charming hopeful bright film that dc has been waiting for..' if u catch my drift. Adding colour to the crow and it's twisted humor and scenes when a kid only go so far. But what can I say, I didn't like the film at all, and I'm paid by dc(sarcasm).

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Yeah that one single review proves it all. Critics just seem to hate superhero movies that are dark and somber.

Remember when the critics slammed Logan earlier this year?

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Suicide Squad was colorful and fun (or at least it tried to be... in some version of the movie) but it got the worst reviews of any of these movies.

Suicide Squad got bad reviews because it had a script written on a bar napkin.

 

[Flint Marko]

They have announced and changed what they are doing and presto, a billion percent. Who knew.

Yeah they stopped making **** movies and apparently made a good one. I'm willing to bet that WW is the first DCEU film to actually feature a three-dimensional character that we can understand and root for, just like Logan and the TDKT and all those other dark superhero movies that critics should hate by your logic.

 

[Marvin]

Yeah they stopped making **** movies and apparently made a good one. I'm willing to bet that WW is the first DCEU film to actually feature a three-dimensional character that we can understand and root for, just like Logan and the TDKT and all those other dark superhero movies that critics should hate by your logic.

u really haven't been reading if you keep at the 'marvin said they should hate all dark anything'. I've consistently said they love em. But keep at that. And that's great that you are willing to bet that subjective observation of yours. All these films have had characters with all sorts of dimensions and 'we' can and have understood and rooted for all of them(unless people actually wanted superman to fail). Even playing that game at it's worst I'd point to mad max and drive, but it's a pointless game as I've learned over the years. Thus this more matter of fact approach.

What would have helped you is if WW was a dark dc super hero movie that got this super high score and wasn't being hailed for all it's (finally) light inspiring etc. That would have helped you and your bet alot.
Cheers.

 

[Loki882]

Remember when the critics slammed Logan earlier this year?

Or most of the X-Men movies (which has been critically well-received). Or Nolan's Batman, or Marvel's Netflix stuff (minus Iron Fist). Heck the last two Captain America films have been two of the more serious films that Marvel has put out, and also two of the most critically-acclaimed MCU films to date as well, etc.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Or most of the X-Men movies (which has been critically well-received). Or Nolan's Batman, or Marvel's Netflix stuff (minus Iron Fist). Heck the last two Captain America films have been two of the more serious films that Marvel has put out, and also two of the most critically-acclaimed MCU films to date as well, etc.

The DC superhero shows also get high praise from the critics. For this season Supergirl 100%, Arrow 100%, Flash 87%, Legends of Tomorrow 77%.
Even the non-superhero DC shows are well liked by the critics. Gotham 89%, Lucifer 100%, iZombie 100%.

 

[darrenbevan1]

Think this will pass with the advent of Wonder Woman.

For the most part, it gets a lot of it correct, but villains and conclusions remain problematic.

http://darrens-world-of-entertainment.blogspot.co.nz/2017/06/wonder-woman-film-review.html

 

[metaphysician]

Eh, it'll only pass if WB learns the right lessons from Wonder Woman. Which is to say, critics will continue to be negative to DC movies that are bad, just like they've always been. Wonder Woman being great won't cause them to magically go "Well, Justice League is a hot mess, but I'm going to give it a 7/10 anyway, because the Wonder Woman movie was great".

 

[StormC]

The DC superhero shows also get high praise from the critics. For this season Supergirl 100%, Arrow 100%, Flash 87%, Legends of Tomorrow 77%.
Even the non-superhero DC shows are well liked by the critics. Gotham 89%, Lucifer 100%, iZombie 100%.

Rotten Tomatoes isn't really reliable for TV. Not enough reviews + a lot of them only review based on several episodes of the season.

 

[metaphysician]

Rotten Tomatoes isn't really reliable for TV. Not enough reviews + a lot of them only review based on several episodes of the season.

Yeah. Low or high, RT television doesn't really work. I'm not even sure of any way it could work ( I seriously doubt you could get enough critics willing to do episode by episode reviews for full seasons ).

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Rotten Tomatoes isn't really reliable for TV. Not enough reviews + a lot of them only review based on several episodes of the season.

It's just as reliable for the CW DC shows as it is for the Netflix Marvel shows. So why does the RT praise for the Netflix shows count but not for the CW shows? Sounds like a bit of a double standard, if not outright hypocritical.

 

[Consona]

I'm willing to bet that WW is the first DCEU film to actually feature a three-dimensional character that we can understand and root for, just like Logan and the TDKT and all those other dark superhero movies that critics should hate by your logic.

Both Superman and Batman are definitely not less developed than WW. I'd actually say it's quite the opposite, but argumentation for that would require to dig deep into the MoS and BvS territory, which are forbidden zones here.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

It's just as reliable for the CW DC shows as it is for the Netflix Marvel shows. So why does the RT praise for the Netflix shows count but not for the CW shows? Sounds like a bit of a double standard, if not outright hypocritical.

Netflix is different because seasons are a lot shorter and every episode is available at once. You can't reliably review a network show in September when the last episode doesn't air until May.

 

[StormC]

It's just as reliable for the CW DC shows as it is for the Netflix Marvel shows. So why does the RT praise for the Netflix shows count but not for the CW shows? Sounds like a bit of a double standard, if not outright hypocritical.

I didn't even say anything about Marvel Netflix.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I didn't even say anything about Marvel Netflix.

I was responding to this post.

Or most of the X-Men movies (which has been critically well-received). Or Nolan's Batman, or Marvel's Netflix stuff (minus Iron Fist). Heck the last two Captain America films have been two of the more serious films that Marvel has put out, and also two of the most critically-acclaimed MCU films to date as well, etc.

I was merely pointing out that the critics like the CW shows too.

 

[MbJ]

They had a good piece on Screen Junkies.
[YT]ZN3zBDStvDs[/YT]

Around 17 minutes in they began discussing audience scores and they reiterated the point brought up here that those aren't very reliable since it is often just fans spam voting or voting just because they love the franchise rather than whether or not it's a good movie.

(I love that Wonder Woman is going over so well, BTW.)

 

[Flint Marko]

Both Superman and Batman are definitely not less developed than WW. I'd actually say it's quite the opposite, but argumentation for that would require to dig deep into the MoS and BvS territory, which are forbidden zones here.

Honest question, as a DCEU fan: why does Superman do what he does? What is his motivation? I genuinely can't find one and it's the most glaring flaw to me in this franchise. In my eyes it is failing to do one of the most basic things any sort of story should do. So I'm genuinely curious to hear your reading of Superman.

I'm seeing WW tomorrow and I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that I'll be able to tell why she's doing what she does. They'll make me feel like I know and understand this character, and I'm very excited.

 

[Bearzooka]

Both Superman and Batman are definitely not less developed than WW. I'd actually say it's quite the opposite, but argumentation for that would require to dig deep into the MoS and BvS territory, which are forbidden zones here.

Having some fun in a distant parts of this forum...

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=35291273&postcount=188

 

[Marvin]

Honest question, as a DCEU fan: why does Superman do what he does? What is his motivation? I genuinely can't find one and it's the most glaring flaw to me in this franchise. In my eyes it is failing to do one of the most basic things any sort of story should do. So I'm genuinely curious to hear your reading of Superman.

The same question one could pose to Donner to be frank.

I have an insightful question myself. Why does the audience think clark helps that tormented and harassed waitress(when no one else will)? When one watches that scene, does one find themselves in a motivation conundrum? Does the scene need some sort of precursor conveying to the audience why this man does this or does it work with what's provided. I mean you replace clark with one Cain Marko and now we're talking, but in the here and now, I have my doubts.

Still I suppose super heroics operate on a different level. The irony however is that this very aforementioned scene is actually serving as the characterization that precedes and infuses the motivation for us to then understand the jumping into burning buildings. Seeing a character stand up for the meek/endangered before and after serum/costume is a route to motivation in my experience, A good man given a means, simply. There need not be an "I built evil weapons or I let uncle ben die" like arrogance lesson learned arc to derive motivation.If it was simply: I want to help. I then wonder how to convey just that but without needing to utter it to the camera in a Bale like private jet fashion. The want to help by showing and not telling..Still, this is modern cinema and even snyder will only go so far, thus we do have the tell: "The only way you could disappear for you is to stop helping people all together and that's not an option for you". Perhaps if he himself said this as opposed to acknowledge it. The want to help. Simply.

Anyhow the direct answer to that not so elusive question is found in that cemetery into tornado scene imo. As a teen clark shouts that he just wants to do something useful with his life and powers(not so much unlike diana and her eager need to get out there). And just what is the most useful thing one could do with said powers. Still I've been on the other side of this to a degree. When asked should a 'no kill rule' simply just be inherent to goodness or should it have a track able motivation.

I get that it's big budget cinema but I think we as an audience should be taxed to work to figure stuff out. The character motivations in Terry Malick's Tree of life take some serious work(from me). But I digress.

I hope ya'll enjoy the film.
peace out.

 

[Flint Marko]

I get that it's big budget cinema but I think we as an audience should be taxed to work to figure stuff out. The character motivations in Terry Malick's Tree of life take some serious work(from me). But I digress.

There's no "work" to put in.

Him more or less telling us "I want to do good!" doesn't make for a complex, let alone satisfying, motivation, just like him more or less telling us "I'm conflicted!" doesn't make for an interesting character journey. They absolutely fail at giving us any sort of insight into his interior life despite their heavy-handed attempts to provide one.

 

[Marvin]

And I never said it was complex, I said you needed to put it together beyond the uncle ben type in your face style motivation points. I never got into character journey(though I do recall long talks of finding his place on the planet). You said you couldn't for the life of you figure out the motivation as to why he does what he does as superman let alone why he wants to, and how that's the glaring flaw in the franchise(for you).
I sought to fix that. Clark is a good man(he didn't need to **** up to learn that he is), and he wants to do something useful with his extraordinary life. Not seeing how this is different from donner outside of actually having more...

Does that explain why the cape and saving the world. Yes it does. Satisfying? that I suppose is a personal debate.

 

[jmc]

An art teacher told me once it's not the responsibility of the audiences to figure out the story of your composition, it's yours.

 

[Marvin]

An art teacher told me once it's not the responsibility of the audiences to figure out the story of your composition, it's yours.

We wrote essays in english class after reading lord of the flies. Some of us could actually list out the metaphors and themes others couldn't.

In a world where michael bay is accused of not giving the audience enough credit. I'd say people needing to think and even think hard is all well and god. Kubrick isn't going to stop what it's doing to make sure 'you' your aunt and your 12 your old cousin are keeping step. It's going to be as ambitious as it needs to be and the people it loses or the ones that claim it doesn't make sense can ask around after the fact.

point being, sometimes we the audience member, have to do some work.

 

[jmc]

The reality is most people don't want to work when consuming entertainment. They want a clear path, or at the very least a clear perspective. For the most part they're not interested in vagueness. A clear path doesn't mean a simple story, it doesn't mean it can't be thought provoking, it just means the foundations are firmly in place. You can have a complex story that requires the audiences attention that still follows that principle.